Is there another 8-foot man in Westeros? The lies of Eddard XI.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

So, in Eddard XI, Karyl Vance and Raymun Darry bring news of the Mountain and his raiding party in the heart of Riverlands.

This raiding causes Eddard to send off Dondarion and the other men who eventually become the Brotherhood With Banners.

Now, much of the story of the Mountain's raids ring false.

1) The Mountain gets past the Riverland army. Ned tells us that: Both Riverrun and Casterly Rock had called their banners, and armies were massing

in the pass below the Golden Tooth. Yet, somehow the Mountain's men get past this force and find themselves in the middle of the Riverlands.

2) The alehouse man's testimony: "I keep... I kept... I kept an alehouse, m'lord, in Sherrer, by the stone bridge. The finest ale south of the Neck, everyone said so, begging your pardons, m'lord. It's gone now like all the rest, m'lord. They come and drank their fill and spilled the rest before they fired my roof, and they would of spilled my blood too, if they'd caught me. M'lord."

The Mountain's men are described as being on war horses. The chances of this man escaping actually are slim.

3) The farmer: "They burnt us out," a farmer beside him said. "Come riding in the dark, up from the south, and fired the fields and the houses alike, killing them as tried to stop them. They weren't no raiders, though, m'lord. They had no mind to steal our stock, not these, they butchered my milk cow where she stood and left her for the flies and the crows."

First off, later Mountain raiding shows the Mountain was very much interested in gold, but let's say they did come in slashing and burning. If they had they come in at night firing fields, when did they have the chance to sit down in the alehouse?

Also, he says they came from the South from then head to Mummer's Ford. Sherrer is on the Green Fork and Mummer's Ford on the Red Fork. This means the Mountain came from the South and then turned around to head South again?

4) The smith: "They rode down my 'prentice boy," said a squat man with a smith's muscles and a bandage around his head. He had put on his finest clothes to come to court, but his breeches were patched, his cloak travel-stained and dusty. "Chased him back and forth across the fields on their horses, poking at him with their lances like it was a game, them laughing and the boy stumbling and screaming till the big one pierced him clean through."

If it was night, how did he observe this?

5) Darry's tale: "At Wendish Town, the people sought shelter in their holdfast, but the walls were timbered. The raiders piled straw against the wood and burnt them all alive. When the Wendish folk opened their gates to flee the fire, they shot them down with arrows as they came running out, even women with suckling babes."

Which was it? Were they burnt alive or did they run out and get shot?

6) Joss's tale: "They would of done the same for us, but the Sherrer holdfast's made of stone," Joss said. "Some wanted to smoke us out, but the big one said there was riper fruit upriver, and they made for the Mummer's Ford."

Who would have observed this conversation? Upriver is not Mummer's Ford. They are on different rivers.

7) Pipper's explanation for a lack of banners:

"What proof do you have that these were Lannisters?" he asked, trying to keep his fury under control. "Did they wear crimson cloaks or fly a lion banner?"

"Even Lannisters are not so blind stupid as that," Ser Marq Piper snapped.

But they are stupid enough to use the Mountain? Why not Lorch or Hoat if it was a secret? And wouldn't everyone assume it was a Lannister job anyway?

8) A disagreement on size:

"How many men were there in this raiding party?" Ned asked.
"A hundred, at the least," Joss answered, in the same instant as the bandaged smith said,
"Fifty," and the grandmother behind him, "Hunnerds and hunnerds, m'lord, an army they was."

9) What proof do we have that this was the Mountain's work? Only the testimony of the ale house man:

The brewer, Joss, shook his head. "It grieves me, m'lord, but no, the armor they showed us was plain, only... the one who led them, he was armored like the rest, but there was no mistaking him all the same. It was the size of him, m'lord. Those as say the giants are all dead never saw this one, I swear. Big as an ox he was, and a voice like stone breaking."

Now, the brewer claims the men were in his ale house. So, why he now switches to talking about them in armor is odd.

It seems that the attackers were not the Mountain's men. So, either the brewer is lying or there is another 8 foot man in Westeros.

[mormont]

Or, you're talking nonsense.

[LordStoneheart]

So is Beric also lying that it is the Mountain that kills him?

[James Arryn]

Your maps are different than mine.

Both Sherer and the Mummer's Ford are on the Red Fork, right up against the border with the WL, not in the middle of the RL.

[John Hulboy]

I agree with the non sense I presume people are so desperate for info they are creating more than crackpot or good fan fiction ..

[Agamemnon]

The villagers were all frightened and fleeing when they witnessed these things, it would be unnatural if they all had the same story. Not to mention all of this took place at a few different towns and villages, they were all different circumstances in the attacks.

And wouldnt you stop and get drunk before a good night of pillaging?

[SunflashJT]

SweetRobin never talks nonsense, he only observes and plays devils advocate for situations throughout the stories. He is not saying for sure that anyone is lying, he is presenting another possible option.

Good theory, however I don't think there is another 8 Foot man in Westeros as it is often said that no one is as big as the Mountain. Although it always makes me wonder if Hodor is of equivalent size to the mountain or slightly smaller. In either case the Mountain is freakish big and not easily mistaken, so if there is another 8 foot man where has he been hiding all his life?

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

SweetRobin never talks nonsense, he only observes and plays devils advocate for situations throughout the stories. He is not saying for sure that anyone is lying, he is presenting another possible option.

Good theory, however I don't think there is another 8 Foot man in Westeros as it is often said that no one is as big as the Mountain. Although it always makes me wonder if Hodor is of equivalent size to the mountain or slightly smaller. In either case the Mountain is freakish big and not easily mistaken, so if there is another 8 foot man where has he been hiding all his life?

Hodor is 7 feet tall.

[Hodor's Dragon]

So, in Eddard XI, Karyl Vance and Raymun Darry bring news of the Mountain and his raiding party in the heart of Riverlands.

This raiding causes Eddard to send off Dondarion and the other men who eventually become the Brotherhood With Banners.

Now, much of the story of the Mountain's raids ring false.

1) The Mountain gets past the Riverland army. Ned tells us that: Both Riverrun and Casterly Rock had called their banners, and armies were massing

in the pass below the Golden Tooth. Yet, somehow the Mountain's men get past this force and find themselves in the middle of the Riverlands.

2) The alehouse man's testimony: "I keep... I kept... I kept an alehouse, m'lord, in Sherrer, by the stone bridge. The finest ale south of the Neck, everyone said so, begging your pardons, m'lord. It's gone now like all the rest, m'lord. They come and drank their fill and spilled the rest before they fired my roof, and they would of spilled my blood too, if they'd caught me. M'lord."

The Mountain's men are described as being on war horses. The chances of this man escaping actually are slim.

3) The farmer: "They burnt us out," a farmer beside him said. "Come riding in the dark, up from the south, and fired the fields and the houses alike, killing them as tried to stop them. They weren't no raiders, though, m'lord. They had no mind to steal our stock, not these, they butchered my milk cow where she stood and left her for the flies and the crows."

First off, later Mountain raiding shows the Mountain was very much interested in gold, but let's say they did come in slashing and burning. If they had they come in at night firing fields, when did they have the chance to sit down in the alehouse?

Also, he says they came from the South from then head to Mummer's Ford. Sherrer is on the Green Fork and Mummer's Ford on the Red Fork. This means the Mountain came from the South and then turned around to head South again?

4) The smith: "They rode down my 'prentice boy," said a squat man with a smith's muscles and a bandage around his head. He had put on his finest clothes to come to court, but his breeches were patched, his cloak travel-stained and dusty. "Chased him back and forth across the fields on their horses, poking at him with their lances like it was a game, them laughing and the boy stumbling and screaming till the big one pierced him clean through."

If it was night, how did he observe this?

5) Darry's tale: "At Wendish Town, the people sought shelter in their holdfast, but the walls were timbered. The raiders piled straw against the wood and burnt them all alive. When the Wendish folk opened their gates to flee the fire, they shot them down with arrows as they came running out, even women with suckling babes."

Which was it? Were they burnt alive or did they run out and get shot?

6) Joss's tale: "They would of done the same for us, but the Sherrer holdfast's made of stone," Joss said. "Some wanted to smoke us out, but the big one said there was riper fruit upriver, and they made for the Mummer's Ford."

Who would have observed this conversation? Upriver is not Mummer's Ford. They are on different rivers.

7) Pipper's explanation for a lack of banners:

"What proof do you have that these were Lannisters?" he asked, trying to keep his fury under control. "Did they wear crimson cloaks or fly a lion banner?"

"Even Lannisters are not so blind stupid as that," Ser Marq Piper snapped.

But they are stupid enough to use the Mountain? Why not Lorch or Hoat if it was a secret? And wouldn't everyone assume it was a Lannister job anyway?

8) A disagreement on size:

"How many men were there in this raiding party?" Ned asked.

"A hundred, at the least," Joss answered, in the same instant as the bandaged smith said,

"Fifty," and the grandmother behind him, "Hunnerds and hunnerds, m'lord, an army they was."

9) What proof do we have that this was the Mountain's work? Only the testimony of the ale house man:

The brewer, Joss, shook his head. "It grieves me, m'lord, but no, the armor they showed us was plain, only... the one who led them, he was armored like the rest, but there was no mistaking him all the same. It was the size of him, m'lord. Those as say the giants are all dead never saw this one, I swear. Big as an ox he was, and a voice like stone breaking."

Now, the brewer claims the men were in his ale house. So, why he now switches to talking about them in armor is odd.

It seems that the attackers were not the Mountain's men. So, either the brewer is lying or there is another 8 foot man in Westeros.

1) House Clegane is SE of Lannisport. You could easily get from there to the Riverlands without going by way of the Tooth. There are multiple ways.

2) So what if the men are on war horses. I don't think the innkeeper was running down the road trying to race the horses. He was hiding somewhere.

3) I don't know whether they sat down in the alehouse or not, but if you send soldiers to spill all the ale from an alehouse and fire the place, of course they're going to do a little drinking. This was true in 2000 BC and it's still true.

4) If you were right there, you could easily tell what was going on even if there's no moon. On the other hand, so what if the guy telling the story is wrong about that? That doesn't mean the main point of the story is wrong. Martin majors in unreliable reporting of distant events.

5) What doesn't make sense about it? Some people tried to escape when the fire was set and archers were ready for that.

6) I'm not looking at a map, but if you have a point I missed it. You might have to cross a river at a ford to reach another river.

7) This is about the closest I've seen to a real point. They shouldn't have used the Mountain; that gave away the game. But OTOH, the Mountain was the guy who was good at this. As for why assume it was the Lannisters? Because it was the Mountain, of course!

8) This is the kind of unreliable reportage Martin shows every time a distant event is reported. It means nothing.

9) I just don't get what you're saying.

Let me say here that I am not, in fact, convinced it was the Mountain in a Lannister plot (although it probably was, as we see Tywin using him that way later). I thought Ned's order attainting him and ordering his execution, without ever hearing his testimony, was a bit quick on the trigger.

[Lord Damian]

The mountain enters the riverlands before armies there can amass. It is his actions that starts mobilization for them. Casterly Rock had the jump on that when news of Tyrion's capture reached them. The Riverlands were kept in the dark from that (nice thinking Cat). Gregore was already back behind friendly lines in time to get dressed up to fight and kill Dondarion.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

So is Beric also lying that it is the Mountain that kills him?

No, I'm not saying that Mountain doesn't later attack the Riverlands. I'm saying this first report is false.

What I'm saying is Lannister doesn't strike first.

1) House Clegane is SE of Lannisport. You could easily get from there to the Riverlands without going by way of the Tooth. There are multiple ways.

How? He would have to cut east and then head up past Pink Maiden, Acorn Hall and High Heart. Why not attack those towns first?

Then he ends up at Wendish (the northern most city) and heads south to Sherrer. But attacks from the south, weirdly. Then heads south to Mummer's Ford. It makes no sense.

3) I don't know whether they sat down in the alehouse or not, but if you send soldiers to spill all the ale from an alehouse and fire the place, of course they're going to do a little drinking. This was true in 2000 BC and it's still true.

"They drank their fill" which means the brewer witnessed them drinking. It seems he was serving them.

We have two conflicting testamonies. One says they came into town slashing and burning. The second says they first went to the alehouse and then started making trouble.

5) What doesn't make sense about it? Some people tried to escape when the fire was set and archers were ready for that.

You cannot burn everyone alive and then shoot people running out. Either everyone was burnt or some survived to be shot.

6) I'm not looking at a map, but if you have a point I missed it. You might have to cross a river at a ford to reach another river.

So, the order of attack is supposed to be Weddish Town, Sherrer and then Mummer's Ford.

Wendish Town and Sherrer are on the Green Fork (the Northern most river). Wendish is north of Sherrer.

Mummer's Ford is on the Red Fork (the Southern most)

So, coming from the south for Sherrer from Wendish and then heading to Mummer's Ford makes little sense.

9) I just don't get what you're saying.

I'm just saying that one guy's testimony says its the Mountain and he is probably lying. Or, a different 8-foot man attacked him.

[LordStoneheart]

What I'm saying is Lannister doesn't strike first.

Alas, saying it does not make it true. You're reaching too far to make a mystery where none exists.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Alas, saying it does not make it true. You're reaching too far to make a mystery where none exists.

With a bunch of different forces trying to create war between Stark and Lannister, it's hardly a stretch to think that this attack framed the Lannisters.

[Bryanfury]

Ridiculous. Tyrion and Tywin discuss explicitly how Gregor was ordered into the Riverlands in response to Tyrions arrest. This is just another case of completely inventing something that the text doesn't suggest at all.

[LordStoneheart]

With a bunch of different forces trying to create war between Stark and Lannister, it's hardly a stretch to think that this attack framed the Lannisters.

it is when Tywin pretty much admits it

[Hrafntýr]

Skinchanging Sweetrobin: What map are you using? At the wiki map of Westeros, it's quite clear that if you simply followed the Red Fork downstream, you would reach the named towns in the order: Wendish Town, Sherrer, Mummer's Ford. The towns would appear to be on the river, perhaps on the south bank, if the forces are attacking from the south, since they wouldn't want to attack from across the river. Though perhaps Wendish town is on the north bank and they cross the river before attacking the other two towns. But they are all in close proximity to one another, on the Red Fork.

[Dorian Martell]

In the books it is said that no one identifies Sir Gregor by sight or Sigil as they were nover out of armor and they wore no house on themselves. They remark on the incredible size and voice of the leader and the destruction he reaps. For Ned, it does not take Sherlock Holmes to deduce that the lord father of the man your wife took captive and the man that tried to kill you and your friends in the street was sending forced to reave around where his first son was taken

[Super Daario]

Maybe it was Robert Strong who did the deed!