Heresy 130

[addicted to snow]

Ironically, I actually think Jon will kill Arya, not recognizing her due to a face change.

Oh, no, they will definitely recognize each other, but arya will kill him anyway because he will want to die… The Pointy End Foreshadowing...

[butterbumps!]

I think Jon's crypt dream is starting to make more sense if we view the Starks in the crypts as being imprisoned, they wouldn't want Jon to come down there, because Jon is the "enemy" of winter having supreme power. I'm not saying Jon will eradicate winter, but rather the forces that wish to make a never-ending winter, which is what it appears that Roose is now trying to do.

That's a really interesting point. Bran and Rickon don't have the hostile relationship in dreams to the crypts, do they?

I know this was recently discussed (I was out of town and missed it), but had anyone posited that Rickon did something down there right before the raven came in aGoT? I mean, as the explanation for why Hodor wouldn't go down there? In keeping with the idea of imprisonment and containment, did something compel Rickon to release something? I know that when the gang takes those swords in post-Ramsay Winterfell, this is cited as the time something was released, but Rickon had been spending a ton of time in the crypts ever since Cat left.

It also kind of seems like Rickon might have the greensight. He somehow knew that none of the Starks who went South would return (that's why he flipped out when Robb announced he was leaving. Shortly before that revelation was when they found him in the crypts after what appeared to be a very long search).

Somehow missed this idea in my first read over of butterbumps post, but my first reaction is whether this theory shed any light on the role on what Mance is up to? Is he the Joranum in the modern day version of the story? And well I don't think it's an easy cut-and-paste history repeating itself kind of story, thinking of Jon vs. Roose as the Night's King 2.0 makes we wonder if Mance (King beyond the wall) is going to ally with Roose (current lord of Winterfell) to take down Jon the Night's King or if he will ally with Jon to take down Roose who is vying for an eternal winter (in this theory). I'd lean towards the latter as it fits with what we've seen of Mance's character so far (i.e. trying to save his people from Winter), but like others, I am still perplexed by what Mance is really up to.

Coincidentally, there's a thread over in the general section that kind of touches on this (I linked my answer). I think his immediate goal to get something from, or do something in, Winterfell. He knows all those wildling songs, and I'm thinking he might be privy to certain truths others might have forgotten by virtue of that.

Right now, Mance has absolutely no incentive to be on an Arya rescue mission. I really really do not think that Mance believes the baby up at the Wall is actually his son. "Rattleshirt" was given the freedom to roam around the Watch, attending Stannis' councils, and hanging out in the tower with the babies from about DwD Jon I to Mel I (so, for half the book basically). I really have to think a father would know which baby is his. Getting Arya back to Jon in order to keep his baby safe isn't what's fueling him. Especially in light of how he's seen the real Arya, would know this one's a fake, and that a fake Arya isn't going to move Jon.

When you look at it like this, it tells us that getting into Winterfell is most likely Mance's own, primary objective, because there's not really anything keeping Mance from going down to Oldtown, picking up his son, and retiring on the beach somewhere. Mel's ruby might be a fetter of sorts, but unless Mel specifically sanctioned an excursion to Winterfell, it doesn't seem to be very effective in keeping Mance on topic.

In general, I'm inclined to think he has some sort of connection to Bloodraven and the CotF (but not in a secret Targ way). He wears a raven-winged helm, and his tent is crested with elk antlers. Ravens are sacred to the CotF and Bloodraven, and Elk is sacred to the green men. I kind of think his desertion story is bullshit (the same way the one Jon told Mance was), and that something happened on that ranging that made him aware of what was going on with the Others, potentially through Bloodraven or another old gods proxy.

To put my cards on the table, if he's an agent of Bloodraven (even as an unwitting pawn), then I have no confidence in Mance being against ice. More precisely, I don't think Bloodraven's in this to eradicate the Others or anything; I think he's working toward a political end, and will puppeteer anything that gets him there. For the record, exploiting the Others for conquest (or fire, for that matter) and wiping out the opposition thusly is a really good idea if your interest group has a way of containing it, emerging as uncontested victors.

So, what I'm saying is that A. I think there's a chance that Mance might have some kind of connection to Bloodraven, but B. that a connection like this is a wildcard. That even if Mance thinks he's on the side of right, believes he's representing the old gods, and is personally against ice extremes, that Bloodraven might be trolling him, and he could be unwittingly doing more damage than he realizes.

That's the point of exploring this one, because the parallels are there and the question is how we interpret them and how they may affect our understanding of what's really going on and what it means for the outcome.

However it turns out there's an essential point in here that in Martin's World Winter and Darkness are one and the same, so that the Heart of Winter is indeed the Heart of Darkness

Oh, I do want to explore it. I wasn't rejecting the parallel; I was struggling with how it would apply. I think the concept of invoking a parallel to Heart of Darkness makes sense in terms of describing the Heart of Winter as a metaphysical realm like how Marlow sees it, but wasn't clear if the "take-away" themes were also necessarily parallels (like how HoD is an anti-colonialist rant that takes the position of glorifying the concept of the "unspoiled savage" against the corruption of man that comes from becoming "civilized," and the horror induced when a "civilized man goes native.")

I'm totally buying those specific themes as salient to Bloodraven/ Kurtz, and I'm with the broad concept of the HoW as inhabiting a conceptual, abstract realm the way the HoD does. Where I'm struggling is whether the same specific themes about reality and the corruption of man via civilization that are present in Conrad's HoD is also contained in Bran's HoW.

One thing I do think might be significant is that while "darkness" "winter" "death" "night" are all treated as fairly synonymous, the way into the HoW is actually really pure, really bright blinding light. We get no description of what's behind the light curtain; is your thought that it's pure darkness?

[Black Crow]

Perhaps in the sense of the darkness of the soul - and that's why Bran was so scared.

But with that I fear we'll have to postpone what promises to be a very fruitful topic for discussion, while we turn to Azor Ahai.

[Melifeather]

Black Crow, somehow you've got to leave this topic open or revisit it after the 5 Kings as there is so much more to discuss regarding Butterbumps posting just above me. I want to reread later and continue this discussion.

[Black Crow]

I know, if I get the chance I'll put together a bonus essay to follow the Kings, but in the meantime I've submitted this one for a lock.

Note to self; really must re-read Heart of Darkness.