Heresy 130

[Black Crow]

I agree, though Bloodraven does in fact have at least one red eye :)

And Mel has two

[Frey family reunion]

@ Armstark and to take my "hunch" even further I think we're going to find that Roahanne Webber's mother was a Lothston.

[Melifeather]

Well, in discussing this, I've tended toward using "for" rather than "of," in order to distinguish from that alternative KitN title, and emphasize the temporality.

I think I remember wandering into an early Heresy to inquire about the meaning of "king OF winter"-- whether this meant the Starks had vanquished it, or whether they tamed it. The former sets them against ice, while the latter would imply that they became the masters of wielding it. I lean toward the latter. So I tend to think that "King of Winter" might mean something like "master of ice and global domination (lol)." Not to get too carried away with this, but I kind of think this is what Roose might be gunning for, at least in part.

So, I guess to be very precise about where I stand with this, my basic idea is that in a time of crisis (when the Long Night falls), the LC of Watch is meant to be the figure behind whom the rest of the realm follows. (This is one of the stickier points that needed to be hammered out when Aegon conquered and erected a second centralized authority; I hope the next king realizes this needs to be figured out).

I'm not sure if "King OF Winter" necessarily describes this role, whereas a "King for Winter" evokes the sense of crisis and temporality I think the situation calls for (at least in terms of how I interpret "KoW" and the early Starks. I also think "Night's King" evokes the same sense of temporality and crisis as it pertains.

Not for nothing, but what we have shaping up with the Bolton-occupied Winterfell and Jon's transcending authority, and Mance, KBtW in the mix as well, (who was occupied with Joramun's horn incidentally), doesn't sound all that different from NK 1.0. No doubt when Thorne returns, he'll accuse Jon of ensorcelling men with his warging pals or something.

You could look at Roose and Jon as a reversal of the Lord of Winterfell overthrowing the Nights King. In the historical version the Lord of Winterfell justifies his take down of the Nights King as necessary since the Nights King ensorcelled the Watch and sacrificed children. In the current version, Roose thinks it's necessary to take Jon down while he's still the LC, perhaps to prevent him from becoming the Nights King? Does Roose wish to obtain the Nights King or King of Winter position?

[JonBranRickon]

I'd like to suggest that he is trying to take both positions. Ultimately the Knights King if he conquered the King of Winter would hold both titles. The end game is to rule it all, the two can not peacefully coexist.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

so when we say Sweet Robin is a changeling are you guys implying he's of fairy blood and was switched with a human baby at birth so the fairy could die peacefully?

If so for an adult he's kind of a douche and has the book in any way hinted at this and would the book even be able to explain this in the two books that are left or are we all maybe over thinking things a bit.

I just looked up changeling so I'm not exactly an expert.

[Mithras]

Anyone took notice of Euron's personal sigil?

a red eye with a black pupil, beneath a black iron crown supported by two crows.

I have a hunch that Bloodraven tried to contact Euron when he was a kid but when he saw his psychopathic urges, he seeked others.

[butterbumps!]

Great post - I really like the idea of Bolton trying to tame or wield Ice as their endgame, which fits well with your other theory of the Bolton line being the offshoot of the Night's King and his white woman. I wonder if the old Stark Kings of Winter did wield/tame Ice magic but understood the importance of balance and the need to allow Winter to relinquish (which is why I support the idea of the Stark in Winterfell being a sort of King of Summer position). But the Night's King overreached and did not want to give up this power, and hence to coup to overthrow him, yet his offshoot line (Boltons) kept up this tradition of trying to completely control and use Winter.

I really like where this is going, as it possibly connects two of my favourite heretical theories: the King of Summer-King of Winter duality, and the Boltons as the offspring of the Night's King.

What you're suggesting about the NK (and by extension, the Boltons) being a branch that refused to abandon the imbalanced magic is definitely something I'm on board with. That specific variation is my front-running "crackpot history" theory because I think it may reconcile a lot of questions. The more global context of this would be that the Starks wielded ice, finding it a profitable way to combat some enemy of the FM or even of the Starks in particular, as well as a means to maintain dominance. Between the political benefits of magic, as well as the eternal desire of man to achieve immortality, they got carried away, and things went haywire (magic is a sword without a hilt and such, and always comes with a major price).

Where I'm hazy about how this played out is whether they willingly would have given up the magic and returned to the old gods, or if there was some sort of defeat/ curse/ imprisonment involved. I really don't think that "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is simply an adage of Stark pride; that kind of sounds like imprisonment. And there's also the issue of iron swords keeping back the Stark dead. And, while, granted, this might be correlation rather than causation, winter seems to be coming out from within Winterfell without a Stark there, and while a Bolton is at the helm.

At any rate, I'm very inclined to think that the Long Night/ Others/ ice magic is a Stark-caused problem. I'm thinking that Winterfell (the containment of winter) and the creation of the Watch and Wall are the Stark's penance/ remediation effort/ damage control or something.

The green and red eyes of the greenseers are those of the Singers (cotf). I do believe BR was speaking of them not humans.

So I think it might be that, too. It might only be a pre-req for CotF to be distinguished thusly. But, you know, it's one of those things that nags me enough to have some doubts and see openings for permutations of plot, but admittedly not enough to really develop a real theory about it. I find it curious that Ghost and Shaggy have the distinctive markings of CotF greenseers, while the other 4 had the more normalized CotF golden eye color. Doesn't that "feel" like there might be some significance there or something?

You could look at Roose and Jon as a reversal of the Lord of Winterfell overthrowing the Nights King. In the historical version the Lord of Winterfell justifies his take down of the Nights King as necessary since the Nights King ensorcelled the Watch and sacrificed children. In the current version, Roose thinks it's necessary to take Jon down while he's still the LC, perhaps to prevent him from becoming the Nights King? Does Roose wish to obtain the Nights King or King of Winter position?

That's kind of what I was thinking-- like an inverse of the original story. According to the standard myth, the Stark and Joramun believed it was critical to taken down the NK (and in my speculation, a son of Winterfell who become Bolton), who wielded what seems to be ice magic/ cold gods worship as you say. But I think in this new iteration, it's a Bolton in Winterfell seeking ice magic, while Jon, the LC is the one working against it (and god only knows what Mance is truly after). So it would be the Bolton taking down the LC son of Winterfell in order to unleash winter, where in this version, the "Night's King" would be the one trying to prevent it.

I think there's a couple of different ways to take the original story, so I don't think that this inversion is the exclusive way it might conceivably play out. But yea, I think we agree on that permutation.

[Mithras]

... And there's also the issue of iron swords keeping back the Stark dead. ...

“Tell us what you saw.” From far away Leaf looked almost a girl, no older than Bran or one of his sisters, but close at hand she seemed far older. She claimed to have seen two hundred years.

Bran’s throat was very dry. He swallowed. “Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He’s not dead, he’s not, I saw him, he’s back at Winterfell, he’s still alive.”

“No,” said Leaf. “He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death.”

“I saw him.” Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. “He was cleaning Ice.”

“You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw.”

Was the bolded warning a figurative speech or something related to the ancient forgotten Stark history?

[alienarea]

Tell us what you saw. From far away Leaf looked almost a girl, no older than Bran or one of his sisters, but close at hand she seemed far older. She claimed to have seen two hundred years.

Brans throat was very dry. He swallowed. Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. Hes not dead, hes not, I saw him, hes back at Winterfell, hes still alive.

No, said Leaf. He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death.

I saw him. Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. He was cleaning Ice.

You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw.

Was the bolded warning a figurative speech or something related to the ancient forgotten Stark history?

I inderstand this as foreshadowing that Bran will call someone back from the dead later in the story - Jon Snow.

And maybe the Night King called someone back from the dead - his corpse bride?

[Amoracchius]

I inderstand this as foreshadowing that Bran will call someone back from the dead later in the story - Jon Snow.

And maybe the Night King called someone back from the dead - his corpse bride?

That's an interesting thought, and one I like far more than Mel somehow pulling of the same trick that Thoros and Beric did.

[PrettyPig]

“Tell us what you saw.” From far away Leaf looked almost a girl, no older than Bran or one of his sisters, but close at hand she seemed far older. She claimed to have seen two hundred years.

Bran’s throat was very dry. He swallowed. “Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He’s not dead, he’s not, I saw him, he’s back at Winterfell, he’s still alive.”

“No,” said Leaf. “He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death.”

“I saw him.” Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. “He was cleaning Ice.”

“You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw.”

Was the bolded warning a figurative speech or something related to the ancient forgotten Stark history?

I have been convinced for some time now that the old Kings of Winter are going to make an appearance (reappearance) in the Battle for the Dawn 2.0. The living Starks have long acted as guardians for the dead ones, and now with the trifecta of the resurgence of high magic, a powerful Stark warg jacking into the weirmatrix, and no Stark in Winterfell, I can see the old kings (and their wolves) rising again.

There seems to be a lot of association between Jon and visions of the old kings, so whatever that ancient forgotten - or more probably, lost with Ned's death - Stark history is, it's going to start with Bran and tie in with Jon.

[addicted to snow]

“Tell us what you saw.” From far away Leaf looked almost a girl, no older than Bran or one of his sisters, but close at hand she seemed far older. She claimed to have seen two hundred years.

Bran’s throat was very dry. He swallowed. “Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He’s not dead, he’s not, I saw him, he’s back at Winterfell, he’s still alive.”

“No,” said Leaf. “He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death.”

“I saw him.” Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. “He was cleaning Ice.”

“You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw.”

Was the bolded warning a figurative speech or something related to the ancient forgotten Stark history?

I used to think that this meant that Bran had the power to bring Ned back to life...

If you had extend the quote to the next paragraph it would offer some more context… BR then goes on to say something like the following:

"I have my own ghost, Bran. A woman I loved, A brother I loved, A brother I hated. Try as I might, no word of mine has ever reached them"

So it seems to me that BR is advising Bran not to waste years & years in an effort to correspond with people in the past, because it is not possible. In other words, he is saying: "don't try & talk through the trees to your father & warn him him not to go south because you will only be wasting precious time"...

Of course we (the readers) have been given the suggestion that Bran is in fact capable of talking to those in the past...

--

I do not think that the statement by BR means that Bran has the power to bring the dead back life, directly, only that he could have the power to alter the past...

[Mithras]

I have been convinced for some time now that the old Kings of Winter are going to make an appearance (reappearance) in the Battle for the Dawn 2.0. The living Starks have long acted as guardians for the dead ones, and now with the trifecta of the resurgence of high magic, a powerful Stark warg jacking into the weirmatrix, and no Stark in Winterfell, I can see the old kings (and their wolves) rising again.

There seems to be a lot of association between Jon and visions of the old kings, so whatever that ancient forgotten - or more probably, lost with Ned's death - Stark history is, it's going to start with Bran and tie in with Jon.

Around the same time with the Sacking of Winterfell, Jon was with Qhorin and he saw this dream:

Sleep came at last, and with it nightmares. He dreamed of burning castles and dead men rising unquiet from their graves.

The ghosts of the dead Starks are in motion.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the crypts of Winterfell are always strangely cold. Normally such caves should be warmer than the outside but I think the presence of ghosts makes it colder than it should normally be.

[PrettyPig]

Around the same time with the Sacking of Winterfell, Jon was with Qhorin and he saw this dream:

Sleep came at last, and with it nightmares. He dreamed of burning castles and dead men rising unquiet from their graves.

The ghosts of the dead Starks are in motion.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the crypts of Winterfell are always strangely cold. Normally such caves should be warmer than the outside but I think the presence of ghosts makes it colder than it should normally be.

Yes, exactly....there is another passage (I don't have e-copy so can't quote) related to Jon and the dead kings with their eyes of ice...and Jaime's weirwood dream of the cold underground place with the ice-cold water and things moving around in the shadows, the place where doom lives. I believe this place is in the North, most likely the crypts under Winterfell.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Around the same time with the Sacking of Winterfell, Jon was with Qhorin and he saw this dream:

Sleep came at last, and with it nightmares. He dreamed of burning castles and dead men rising unquiet from their graves.

The ghosts of the dead Starks are in motion.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the crypts of Winterfell are always strangely cold. Normally such caves should be warmer than the outside but I think the presence of ghosts makes it colder than it should normally be.

Good catch on the timing. I believe Theon mentions the crypts seeming cool in the summer but now that winter has come they actually feel a lot warmer

[The Free Folk]

What you're suggesting about the NK (and by extension, the Boltons) being a branch that refused to abandon the imbalanced magic is definitely something I'm on board with. That specific variation is my front-running "crackpot history" theory because I think it may reconcile a lot of questions. The more global context of this would be that the Starks wielded ice, finding it a profitable way to combat some enemy of the FM or even of the Starks in particular, as well as a means to maintain dominance. Between the political benefits of magic, as well as the eternal desire of man to achieve immortality, they got carried away, and things went haywire (magic is a sword without a hilt and such, and always comes with a major price).

Where I'm hazy about how this played out is whether they willingly would have given up the magic and returned to the old gods, or if there was some sort of defeat/ curse/ imprisonment involved. I really don't think that "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is simply an adage of Stark pride; that kind of sounds like imprisonment. And there's also the issue of iron swords keeping back the Stark dead. And, while, granted, this might be correlation rather than causation, winter seems to be coming out from within Winterfell without a Stark there, and while a Bolton is at the helm.

At any rate, I'm very inclined to think that the Long Night/ Others/ ice magic is a Stark-caused problem. I'm thinking that Winterfell (the containment of winter) and the creation of the Watch and Wall are the Stark's penance/ remediation effort/ damage control or something.

Aye, I'm on board with all of the above. Fits very well with my interpretation and extrapolation of the histories of the North.

As to the bolded bit, I also lean towards the latter and agree with you that 'Stark in Winterfell' sounds more like imprisonment. What I'm suggesting is that the Stark in Winterfell is a curse/sacrifice that is meant as a cost to being able to wield ice magic and to act as a counterbalance to the King of Winter/Stark on the Wall. And I'd argue (though I think this is where we might part ways) is that Bran is being sought after to fill this counterbalance, King of Summer role, though obviously not from Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

Anyone took notice of Euron's personal sigil?

a red eye with a black pupil, beneath a black iron crown supported by two crows.

I have a hunch that Bloodraven tried to contact Euron when he was a kid but when he saw his psychopathic urges, he seeked others.

It has been noticed before - as has his assertion that he dreamed he could fly

[Black Crow]

At any rate, I'm very inclined to think that the Long Night/ Others/ ice magic is a Stark-caused problem. I'm thinking that Winterfell (the containment of winter) and the creation of the Watch and Wall are the Stark's penance/ remediation effort/ damage control or something.

Something we've discussed before is the reason why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell is so that Starks can be supplied for the Wall.

[butterbumps!]

Aye, I'm on board with all of the above. Fits very well with my interpretation and extrapolation of the histories of the North.

As to the bolded bit, I also lean towards the latter and agree with you that 'Stark in Winterfell' sounds more like imprisonment. What I'm suggesting is that the Stark in Winterfell is a curse/sacrifice that is meant as a cost to being able to wield ice magic and to act as a counterbalance to the King of Winter/Stark on the Wall. And I'd argue (though I think this is where we might part ways) is that Bran is being sought after to fill this counterbalance, King of Summer role, though obviously not from Winterfell.

We may not actually disagree. I mean, I'm fully on board with the idea of there having to be a Stark in Winterfell being a curse/ penance/ security measure, so there's full agreement on that. And while I do question the eyes business, I'm honestly not sure what to make of it, so I don't have strong opinions against what you're suggesting with the duality, and think it makes sense.

I don't know if this is going down a tangent, but putting aside the greenseer thing, it kind of "bothers" me that Jon and Rickon are the direwolf complements. White/ black and red/ green are exact opposites. Of the 6, those are the ones that are different from the rest, and inversions of each other at that. I guess, I can't shake the feeling this is a clue about something, like counterbalance between those two rather than Jon-Bran or something to that effect.

Something we've discussed before is the reason why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell is so that Starks can be supplied for the Wall.

Yea, that makes sense.

As a sort of unrelated question, is the "heart of winter" actually located geographically all the way up north? Outside of Bran's dream where he travels North, through a curtain of light, and sees this heart, is there anything that really gives a location?

If it's actually all the way up north in the "Lands of Always Winter," why is it light? I mean, the Long Night is supposed to be endless night, not some sublime brightness. I get how that provides a foil to the hot Asshai lands of Shadow, and that both are paradoxes.

But I'm just curious about that-- what the heart of winter actually is-- I'm sure it's been discussed in here, so I figured I'd ask. I'd toyed with the idea that the heart of Winter was Winterfell, but I wouldn't say I subscribe to that belief or anything.

[PrettyPig]

As to the bolded bit, I also lean towards the latter and agree with you that 'Stark in Winterfell' sounds more like imprisonment. What I'm suggesting is that the Stark in Winterfell is a curse/sacrifice that is meant as a cost to being able to wield ice magic and to act as a counterbalance to the King of Winter/Stark on the Wall. And I'd argue (though I think this is where we might part ways) is that Bran is being sought after to fill this counterbalance, King of Summer role, though obviously not from Winterfell.

Maybe i'm misreading, but the bolded almost implies that the Stark on the Wall (a second or later son) wields more power/poses greater threat than the actual firstborn heir to Winterfell/King of the North? And is there any evidence that any Stark south of the wall prior to Ned's brood actually had powers of ice magic? I don't recall any, except going waaaay back to the Age of Heroes, but perhaps I missed something. Would this mean that a Ned on the Wall would have been a stronger force than a Brandon in WF?

Side note: Interestingly it seems that the real "power" behind the Stark kings was in their personal balance of ice and fire - they have the cold hardness of ice but also the hot wild temperaments of the First Men, expressed in folks like the Greatjon and the Mormont women. It's like the kings that persevere have to have that elemental counterbalance within themselves to ensure a peaceful reign over the North. Too much Fire, as with Brandon, makes them flare up and burn out too soon, whereas too much Ice, as with Ned, dulls the senses and keeps them from reacting quickly. Benjen also seems to be pretty easygoing, which makes me wonder if actually Lyanna was the ideal balance of ice and fire within Ned's generation. I just always imagined the KoW being very Viking-like, this crazy blend of frozen stoicism and brutal savagery with a strong connection to their land/origins, and to keep the upper hand on both the environment and the people, they need to be both.