Heresy 130

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

On the Son of Winterfell business and the Lord Commander being a de facto King of Winter its worth noting a couple of interesting things; there's that curious attitude of almost reverence to the Starks displayed by the spearwives - and more strikingly there's the way so many of the Wildlings coming through the Wall pledge allegiance to Jon Snow - in effect kneeling!

Mance was not wrong. "Free folk don't follow names, or little cloth animals sewn on a tunic," the King-Beyond-the-Wall had told him. "They won't dance for coins, they don't care how you style yourself or what that chain of office means or who your grandsire was. They follow strength. They follow the man."

[Black Crow]

Would Petyr be perhaps a child that was exchanged at one time and then returned to do the work of the fae?

Its possible I suppose and might explain why he's called Petyr Bael[ish]. At all events, if Armstark is correct, then Littlefinger's supposed Braavosi origins might be a little suspect.

[Amoracchius]

Though if he's taking Oakheart's role, his could certainly be a significant death this season (probably moreso than Oakheart).

I cant' quite figure out what they're doing with Tristane. It seems they are combining Arianne and Tristane's characters, of course that could be awkward later if Arianne is betrothed to Aegon. I wonder if Tristane will end up taking on Quentyn's role as well and end up travelling to Mereen. Have you guys seen the recent theories that Quentyn is not actually dead, since we were only told of his death second hand?

That one has been around for a while actually, though I'm not really sure why. Sure, we are told that he died second hand after the fact, but it was during his own POV chapter that he got roasted by one of Dany's dragons. I've read a bunch of "Quentyn survived" threads, but nothing has convinced me that we as readers should reject what we witnessed through his own eyes.

[butterbumps!]

Well, in discussing this, I've tended toward using "for" rather than "of," in order to distinguish from that alternative KitN title, and emphasize the temporality.

I think I remember wandering into an early Heresy to inquire about the meaning of "king OF winter"-- whether this meant the Starks had vanquished it, or whether they tamed it. The former sets them against ice, while the latter would imply that they became the masters of wielding it. I lean toward the latter. So I tend to think that "King of Winter" might mean something like "master of ice and global domination (lol)." Not to get too carried away with this, but I kind of think this is what Roose might be gunning for, at least in part.

So, I guess to be very precise about where I stand with this, my basic idea is that in a time of crisis (when the Long Night falls), the LC of Watch is meant to be the figure behind whom the rest of the realm follows. (This is one of the stickier points that needed to be hammered out when Aegon conquered and erected a second centralized authority; I hope the next king realizes this needs to be figured out).

I'm not sure if "King OF Winter" necessarily describes this role, whereas a "King for Winter" evokes the sense of crisis and temporality I think the situation calls for (at least in terms of how I interpret "KoW" and the early Starks. I also think "Night's King" evokes the same sense of temporality and crisis as it pertains.

Not for nothing, but what we have shaping up with the Bolton-occupied Winterfell and Jon's transcending authority, and Mance, KBtW in the mix as well, (who was occupied with Joramun's horn incidentally), doesn't sound all that different from NK 1.0. No doubt when Thorne returns, he'll accuse Jon of ensorcelling men with his warging pals or something.

[Frey family reunion]

I know the concept of the Changeling has been thrown around a lot in this thread, but I highly doubt we are going to have an exact instance of a changeling as we understand it through folklore. Instead I think we have "bastards" inheriting mystical bloodlines through their secret fathers that are being "born" into various households which are analagous to the idea of a changeling. So if Petyr Baelish has a mystical bloodline, and he secretly fathered Sweetrobin, then Sweetrobin's presence in the Arryn household is analogous to a changeling which is swapped for the human child. To clue us in on Sweetrobin's surreptitious nature, GRRM gives Sweetrobin some of the characteristics of a changeling.

[Armstark]

I've not looked on Littlefinger as a player in that particular game before, but its an intriguing idea which recalls the thought the other day that Sweetrobin displays an awful lot of the characteristic signs of a changeling. It was hard to see at that point why that might be the case, but are we really convinced that Sweetrobin really is Jon Arryn's son - or might Lysa the Mad have had a Bael[ish] encounter of the intimate kind?

I didn't read said discussion about Sweetrobin but regardless of who his father is he is the son of Lysa Tully, a daughter of Harrenhal herself. So he has the blood but is not the heir to the maternal line (plus he is male). I see him as some kind of evil twin (cousin) to Bran because there are many similarities between them. Both are handicapped by illness, both become orphan and Lord at a young age (although Bran never rules) and both seem to be abnormal or extraordinary children in their own ways. And just like Bran's development of the 'gift' was impaired for a time by Maester Luwin, Sweetrobin seems to suffer from the same treatment from Maester Colemon. I wonder what would happen if you put Sweetrobin in a dark room for a week.

By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance.

[Mithras]

I think King of Winter is a similar title to Sword of the Morning. Both of them have magical meaning and not all the Daynes or Starks assumed them. Apparently, the real meaning behind them are forgotten.

In Stark case, I am sure that Brandon Ice-Eyes was a King of Winter and used his powers. I think Bran might be unconsciously using them as well. The weird snow storm centered at Winterfell in ADwD does not look natural.

There are also these constellations the Sword of the Morning and the Ice Dragon. One is in the South and the other is in the North, looking to each other.

[The Free Folk]

Just to back up the Sweetrobin discussion for a second, so I'm on the same page: how does Robert Arryn show characteristics of a changeling?

[Frey family reunion]

I didn't read said discussion about Sweetrobin but regardless of who his father is he is the son of Lysa Tully, a daughter of Harrenhal herself. So he has the blood but is not the heir to the maternal line (plus he is male). I see him as some kind of evil twin (cousin) to Bran because there are many similarities between them. Both are handicapped by illness, both become orphan and Lord at a young age (although Bran never rules) and both seem to be abnormal or extraordinary children in their own ways. And just like Bran's development of the 'gift' was impaired for a time by Maester Luwin, Sweetrobin seems to suffer from the same treatment from Maester Colemon. I wonder what would happen if you put Sweetrobin in a dark room for a week.

By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance.

Agree with everything in your post. I would also note, that the maesters find that leeching Sweetrobin seems to lessen his mood swings (a cynical observer might just note that he is worn down from excessive blood loss). But I would note how similar that is to Roose Bolton's need to "leech" his bad blood. Perhaps both are frustrated greenseers or wargs whose talents are both dormant and debilitating.

[Armstark]

I know the concept of the Changeling has been thrown around a lot in this thread, but I highly doubt we are going to have an exact instance of a changeling as we understand it through folklore. Instead I think we have "bastards" inheriting mystical bloodlines through their secret fathers that are being "born" into various households which are analagous to the idea of a changeling. So if Petyr Baelish has a mystical bloodline, and he secretly fathered Sweetrobin, then Sweetrobin's presence in the Arryn household is analogous to a changeling which is swapped for the human child. To clue us in on Sweetrobin's surreptitious nature, GRRM gives Sweetrobin some of the characteristics of a changeling.

Oh I like this a lot.

In Sweetrobin's case I think it is the Harrenhal bloodline that is brought into the Arryn line (one of the purest Andal lines there is) through the ignorance of such matters of Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully. Littlefinger I think is just what he claims to be - of ordinary birth. Exactly the reason why he lusts after Catelyn and Sansa and what their blood represents.

[Black Crow]

Just to back up the Sweetrobin discussion for a second, so I'm on the same page: how does Robert Arryn show characteristics of a changeling?

Sickly, an unnatural heavy dependency particularly in late suckling, capricious... Basically substitute the word changeling for the word Sweetrobin because in the latter you've pretty well got a "textbook" description of the kind of changeling left by Faeries - in contradistinction to those human changelings taken by Faeries as their servants.

[Black Crow]

I do like the notion of Sweetrobin as Bran's evil twin :devil:

[The Free Folk]

Well, in discussing this, I've tended toward using "for" rather than "of," in order to distinguish from that alternative KitN title, and emphasize the temporality.

I think I remember wandering into an early Heresy to inquire about the meaning of "king OF winter"-- whether this meant the Starks had vanquished it, or whether they tamed it. The former sets them against ice, while the latter would imply that they became the masters of wielding it. I lean toward the latter. So I tend to think that "King of Winter" might mean something like "master of ice and global domination (lol)." Not to get too carried away with this, but I kind of think this is what Roose might be gunning for, at least in part.

So, I guess to be very precise about where I stand with this, my basic idea is that in a time of crisis (when the Long Night falls), the LC of Watch is meant to be the figure behind whom the rest of the realm follows. (This is one of the stickier points that needed to be hammered out when Aegon conquered and erected a second centralized authority; I hope the next king realizes this needs to be figured out).

I'm not sure if "King OF Winter" necessarily describes this role, whereas a "King for Winter" evokes the sense of crisis and temporality I think the situation calls for (at least in terms of how I interpret "KoW" and the early Starks. I also think "Night's King" evokes the same sense of temporality and crisis as it pertains.

Not for nothing, but what we have shaping up with the Bolton-occupied Winterfell and Jon's transcending authority, and Mance, KBtW in the mix as well, (who was occupied with Joramun's horn incidentally), doesn't sound all that different from NK 1.0. No doubt when Thorne returns, he'll accuse Jon of ensorcelling men with his warging pals or something.

Great post - I really like the idea of Bolton trying to tame or wield Ice as their endgame, which fits well with your other theory of the Bolton line being the offshoot of the Night's King and his white woman. I wonder if the old Stark Kings of Winter did wield/tame Ice magic but understood the importance of balance and the need to allow Winter to relinquish (which is why I support the idea of the Stark in Winterfell being a sort of King of Summer position). But the Night's King overreached and did not want to give up this power, and hence to coup to overthrow him, yet his offshoot line (Boltons) kept up this tradition of trying to completely control and use Winter.

I really like where this is going, as it possibly connects two of my favourite heretical theories: the King of Summer-King of Winter duality, and the Boltons as the offspring of the Night's King.

[Frey family reunion]

Oh I like this a lot.

In Sweetrobin's case I think it is the Harrenhal bloodline that is brought into the Arryn line (one of the purest Andal lines there is) through the ignorance of such matters of Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully. Littlefinger I think is just what he claims to be - of ordinary birth. Exactly the reason why he lusts after Catelyn and Sansa and what their blood represents.

Call it a hunch or a feeling and certainly not developed enough to be a full fledged theory, but I think Petyr's going to be a descendant of Rohanne Webber of the Sworn Sword fame. Apparently we're going to learn in the World of Ice and Fire that she disappeared after she married Gerold Lannister. She shares Petyr's grey-green eyes and small stature.

[The Free Folk]

Sickly, an unnatural heavy dependency particularly in late suckling, capricious... Basically substitute the word changeling for the word Sweetrobin because in the latter you've pretty well got a "textbook" description of the kind of changeling left by Faeries - in contradistinction to those human changelings taken by Faeries as their servants.

Okay I think I follow - it is my unfamiliarity with Faerie folklore that led to the confusion - wasn't aware of some changelings (offered as sacrifice?) were left behind. Thanks!

[Mithras]

I do like the notion of Sweetrobin as Bran's evil twin :devil:

The kid is mad for Sansa's teats :P

[Armstark]

Sickly, an unnatural heavy dependency particularly in late suckling, capricious... Basically substitute the word changeling for the word Sweetrobin because in the latter you've pretty well got a "textbook" description of the kind of changeling left by Faeries - in contradistinction to those human changelings taken by Faeries as their servants.

All that is missing is his servant, his Reek or his Hodor. Who is it gonna be?

Call it a hunch or a feeling and certainly not developed enough to be a full fledged theory, but I think Petyr's going to be a descendant of Rohanne Webber of the Sworn Sword fame. Apparently we're going to learn in the World of Ice and Fire that she disappeared after she married Gerold Lannister. She shares Petyr's grey-green eyes and small stature.

Hah, I didn't even know who Rohanne Webber is, I had to look her up ^^ Was there a leak of the World of ice and Fire concerning Gerold Lannister or where did you get that info?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I think you're conflating "the Stark of Winterfell" with the issue of "who has power in the North." He's not representing the interests of Winterfell in these things; he's representing the realms of men.

His connection to Winterfell is part of why men listen and follow; it gives him a certain gravitas. But he's acting as a crisis king, for lack of a better term. He's the transcendant authority in the North. Yes, formerly, the Starks had that position of authority, but being a Northern authority is not synonymous with "representing the Starks."

To be honest, I'm not sure what I think of Bran's abilities. It's more that the discussion about eye color nags me-- especially in light of Jon and Rickon's wolves. It's not that I'd think Bloodraven was mistaken in choosing Bran; more that Bran is a pawn to get to Jon or Rickon-- that Bloodraven's true design might be to get one them to this throne.

Oh, and I agree with your thoughts on the NK. I've wondered very similar things.

The green and red eyes of the greenseers are those of the Singers (cotf). I do believe BR was speaking of them not humans.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

The green and red eyes of the greenseers are those of the Singers (cotf). I do believe BR was speaking of them not humans.

I agree, though Bloodraven does in fact have at least one red eye :)

[Frey family reunion]

Hah, I didn't even know who Rohanne Webber is, I had to look her up ^^ Was there a leak of the World of ice and Fire concerning Gerold Lannister or where did you get that info?

GRRM read an excerpt at a convention and some of the attendees took notes. Here is a link to the summary:

http://www.historyofwesteros.com/concarolinas-westerlands-reading/

Now granted, it's not specifically spelled out that it is the same Lady Rohanne as in the Sworn Sword, but based on the fact that Rohanne Webber and Gerold Lannister were exchanging suggestive letters, I assume it's the same one.