If Balon rebelled would Eddard kill Theon V2

[the marsh king]

Hey i thought i would remake this as the last one got locked and was producing some good arguments

I had seen a few examples on the last thread of Eddard forgetting his duty and honour and doing what is right.

I did not see one example of him killing the innocent

Eddard did disobey a direct order from his king over 2 innocents he had never met. This is a fact.

Can anyone give a example where he did kill the innocent ?

Also i have said before Eddard was cold to everyone it was just his way half his lords took it for disdain, Theon was never going to get the hug and the pat on the back off Eddard that he so desperately wanted but that does not mean Eddard did not care for him.

I mean even the hardest man would feel sorry for a young boy who did nothing wrong dragged away from his family, i mean imagine Theons first day at Winterfell how scared would you be ? I am sure Eddard had a lot of sympathy for Theon

I personally do not think that Eddard would ever have harmed Theon for something that Balon did

[Lord Reaver]

I am sure Eddard had a lot of sympathy for Theon

The only thing we can be sure about Eddard is what is in his POV chapters. And in those, there isn't a single thought of sympathy for Theon. On the contrary, there is an extremely callous observation.

That's what's sure: Ned saw Theon as a tool to use against Balon. End of.

[the marsh king]

The only thing we can be sure about Eddard is what is in his POV chapters. And in those, there isn't a single thought of sympathy for Theon. On the contrary, there is an extremely callous observation.

That's what's sure: Ned saw Theon as a tool to use against Balon end of

No not end of thats your opinion all taken from 1 line where Eddard says "keep Theon close we may need his fathers ships"

That is because Eddard sensed the impending war and Theon could secure his father's ships, It does not mean that is all Eddard thought about Theon as a tool to use against his father.

Also as i said in the previous posts Eddard was a cold man a lot of his lords were not that keen on him, he wasnt exactly overly affectionate to his own children it did not mean he didn't care for them.

Eddard proved time and time again he would forsake his honour to protect the innocent and at the time of AGoT Theon was innocent.

I suppose you think Eddard wanted Aegon dead because his father Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna ? or maybe he wanted Aemon killed because his Great nephew Aerys burned Eddards father.

You seem to think Eddard was a fan of punishing someone for their relatives actions so why not ?

[John Doe]

Winterfell was probably one of the best places Theon could have come to. Too bad he didn't realize this until it was too late.

[Game Of Thrones]

Eddard would have killed Theon. And Theon realizes this.

[INCBlackbird]

No not end of thats your opinion all taken from 1 line where Eddard says "keep Theon close we may need his fathers ships"

That is because Eddard sensed the impending war and Theon could secure his father's ships, It does not mean that is all Eddard thought about Theon as a tool to use against his father.

Also as i said in the previous posts Eddard was a cold man a lot of his lords were not that keen on him, he wasnt exactly overly affectionate to his own children it did not mean he didn't care for them.

Eddard proved time and time again he would forsake his honour to protect the innocent and at the time of AGoT Theon was innocent.

I suppose you think Eddard wanted Aegon dead because his father Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna ? or maybe he wanted Aemon killed because his Great nephew Aerys burned Eddards father.

You seem to think Eddard was a fan of punishing someone for their relatives actions so why not ?

the point is that Ned had 15 chapters in which he mentioned Theon once, it's taken from 1 line because there only is 1 line, a line in which he thinks of Theon as the political tool that he is, leading us to believe Ned saw him as.... a political tool.

when it came to his own children and when it came to something he saw as dishonorable. he was totally willing to have a war that he knew would kill millions of innocent children, because joffrey wans't the rightfull heir (before you say anything, no, it wasn't because joffrey was a psycho. if he had been roberts son, Ned would have served him, it's all about the honor)

if Ned wasn't going to kill theon, he wouldn't have taken him on in the first place. once again I have to point out that Ned's most prominent feature and the reason he is so respected is because he does his duty whether he likes it or not and has a strong set of principles he values above and beyond what is right or wrong.

[MacReady]

If Balon rose up in rebellion I think Ned would have to kill Theon. Really wouldn't have had a choice. Maybe he would be spared if Theon was willing to fight against his own father, but I'm not sure if even that would have saved him. I'm sure Ned did care for Theon on some level but you have hostages for a reason. Ned (and Robert) lose face if they don't punish Balon for rising up again. If they let him go then whats to stop the next Lord from thinking he can rise up even though the iron throne has his relatives hostage. I'm sure it would have been hard for Ned to do since Theon is his oldest son's best friend but he would have done it in the end. Theon wouldn't have deserved it but then again people getting what they deserve and what's just isn't something this series isn't necessarily interested in.

At the same time I will give Ned this; no way he would have sent Theon to treat with Balon. Ned knew Balon wasn't going to make any trouble as long as his son was a prisoner. That was Robb's folly because he looked at Theon as his best friend instead of his bargaining tool. If Robb had listened to his mother and sent someone else to deliver his terms to Theon's father we would have had a much different war. The ironborn would have joined the Stark's in battle instead of pretty much ruining their chances.

[INCBlackbird]

If Balon rose up in rebellion I think Ned would have to kill Theon. Really wouldn't have had a choice. Maybe he would be spared if Theon was willing to fight against his own father, but I'm not sure if even that would have saved him. I'm sure Ned did care for Theon on some level but you have hostages for a reason. Ned (and Robert) lose face if they don't punish Balon for rising up again. If they let him go then whats to stop the next Lord from thinking he can rise up even though the iron throne has his relatives hostage. I'm sure it would have been hard for Ned to do since Theon is his oldest son's best friend but he would have done it in the end. Theon wouldn't have deserved it but then again people getting what they deserve and what's just isn't something this series isn't necessarily interested in.

At the same time I will give Ned this; no way he would have sent Theon to treat with Balon. Ned knew Balon wasn't going to make any trouble as long as his son was a prisoner. That was Robb's folly because he looked at Theon as his best friend instead of his bargaining tool. If Robb had listened to his mother and sent someone else to deliver his terms to Theon's father we would have had a much different war. The ironborn would have joined the Stark's in battle instead of pretty much ruining their chances.

I agree with the first part completely, ned would have had to, exactly for the reasons you mentioned and he wouldn't have likedi t but he would have done his duty.

and indeed, Ned wouldn't have sent Theon to the iron islands, but that wouldn't have changed much (well it would have for theon... he would have been executed) Balon was already planning to rebel, why do you think he wouldn't have if his son hadn't come home, he wasn't waiting for that. in fact, aeron remembers a conversation with Balon in which he told him that he hoped they killed him so he wouldn't stand in asha's way.

[the marsh king]

I agree with the first part completely, ned would have had to, exactly for the reasons you mentioned and he wouldn't have likedi t but he would have done his duty.

and indeed, Ned wouldn't have sent Theon to the iron islands, but that wouldn't have changed much (well it would have for theon... he would have been executed) Balon was already planning to rebel, why do you think he wouldn't have if his son hadn't come home, he wasn't waiting for that. in fact, aeron remembers a conversation with Balon in which he told him that he hoped they killed him so he wouldn't stand in asha's way.

I don't agree with that at all Ned was fostered at the Vale with Jon Arryn thats where he learnt his honor (most Starks are not like Eddard they are more like Brandon) and Jon Arryn was also ordered to kill his wards but he rebbeled and went to war for them instead and you think that Eddard is going to do the opposite.

Just Theon being Robbs best mate that alone would have complicated things even Jon who was never that keen on Theon i think would have been against it.

I mean just imagine the scene all the Starks at breakfast with Theon, Eddard walks in, " Come on Theon your father rebelled time to die " and no one would object ?

[INCBlackbird]

I don't agree with that at all Ned was fostered at the Vale with Jon Arryn thats where he learnt his honor (most Starks are not like Eddard they are more like Brandon) and Jon Arryn was also ordered to kill his wards but he rebbeled and went to war for them instead and you think that Eddard is going to do the opposite.

Just Theon being Robbs best mate that alone would have complicated things even Jon who was never that keen on Theon i think would have been against it.

I mean just imagine the scene all the Starks at breakfast with Theon, Eddard walks in, " Come on Theon your father rebelled time to die " and no one would object ?

but Theon wasn't a ward, he was hostage, Ned took him in knowing that if his father rebelled he'd have to kill him. the situation of him being a ward with Jon arryn was entirely different because he wasn't a hostage to his father's good behavior. he was an actual ward, meant to grow up there, marry someone and go home.

this is why i'm pretty sure Ned and Cat didn't want Theon and Robb to be best friends, i've had this argument just a few days ago in another thread and I would prefer to not start it again but here I go : there is some indication that Robb was sick and tired of having the "why do you like theon/why are you friends with theon/how does your relationship with theon work?" conversation. there is no direct proof of it but there is SOMETHING! which is more then there is of the oppesite argument.

I'm not sure how it would have happened but the world of asoiaf is not as friendly as our world you might have noticed, people get killed, people have to pay for their families sins, whether the characters agree with that or not, bad things happen, especially when there's war...

[aryagonnakill#2]

All I have to say, which I have said before, is that if someone has my son held hostage and I rebel, and that lord killed my son, not only does that lord now have nothing, I'm also pissed. No 1 who argues that Ned would have killed him has ever provided a reason for him to have done so. Theon is a mainland raised Greyjoy, his ultimate use lies in making him lord of the Iron Isles 1 day so that he can raise his children to be more friendly to the mainland and thats how you get peace. Saying that if Ned didn't kill him Balon wouldn't have taken him serious is not an argument, its a statement based on nothing, if Balon already rebelled then obviously he has already decided not to take Ned or anyone else seriously.

Would Ned have killed Theon? I don't think he's that stupid.

[Veltigar]

That depends on Neds trust in Theon I think. If Ned though Theon was sufficiently indoctrinated in Stark values, he'd probably just kill Balon and install Theon as Lord of the Iron Isles. If Ned thought that wasn't the case than I think this scenario would happen.

[INCBlackbird]

All I have to say, which I have said before, is that if someone has my son held hostage and I rebel, and that lord killed my son, not only does that lord now have nothing, I'm also pissed. No 1 who argues that Ned would have killed him has ever provided a reason for him to have done so. Theon is a mainland raised Greyjoy, his ultimate use lies in making him lord of the Iron Isles 1 day so that he can raise his children to be more friendly to the mainland and thats how you get peace. Saying that if Ned didn't kill him Balon wouldn't have taken him serious is not an argument, its a statement based on nothing, if Balon already rebelled then obviously he has already decided not to take Ned or anyone else seriously.

Would Ned have killed Theon? I don't think he's that stupid.

actually many people have, time and time again we have argued that he'd have to kill him because he made the threat to do so, if he hadn't he would become known as A. a man too weak to kill someone whe he said he would b. a man that didn't keep his word. as a lord, one cannot afford to do that. the reason Ned is a good lord is, like I have stated before, because he is a honorable lord that does his duty and keeps his promises.

Theon's reason for being at winterfell was to keep his father in check (unfortunatly his father didn't care for him, something Theon knew but lied to himself about over and over until he belived it wasn't true) if Balon rebelled, Theon would have had no further use to them, because Balon already proved that he didn't care. and he made the threat to kill him, so he had to keep his word on that, otherwise no one would ever believe him if he made another threat, ever again!

[Equilibrium]

Yes and he would be justified

[INCBlackbird]

Yes and he would be justified

this exactly! I'm a huge theon fan and I don't actually like Ned Stark, but that's just what happened in this world, I wouldn't blame Ned for killing Theon if Balon rebelled.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Catelyn woulda done it for him. Just ask Jinglebell.

[the marsh king]

but Theon wasn't a ward, he was hostage, Ned took him in knowing that if his father rebelled he'd have to kill him. the situation of him being a ward with Jon arryn was entirely different because he wasn't a hostage to his father's good behavior. he was an actual ward, meant to grow up there, marry someone and go home.

this is why i'm pretty sure Ned and Cat didn't want Theon and Robb to be best friends, i've had this argument just a few days ago in another thread and I would prefer to not start it again but here I go : there is some indication that Robb was sick and tired of having the "why do you like theon/why are you friends with theon/how does your relationship with theon work?" conversation. there is no direct proof of it but there is SOMETHING! which is more then there is of the oppesite argument.

I'm not sure how it would have happened but the world of asoiaf is not as friendly as our world you might have noticed, people get killed, people have to pay for their families sins, whether the characters agree with that or not, bad things happen, especially when there's war...

I am sure if Jon Arryn and Rickard Stark came to conflict he would have given Eddard straight back as he was only a ward and not a hostage.

I always thought that a ward and a hostage was basically the same thing.

Also just read a quote that i think shows that Theon does not see himself as a hostage.

Catelyn: If even part of what I suspect is true, Ned and my girls have ridden into deadly danger, and a word in the wrong ears could mean their lives.

Theon: Lord Eddard is a second father to me. I do so swear.

[Lord Reaver]

I am sure if Jon Arryn and Rickard Stark came to conflict he would have given Eddard straight back as he was only a ward and not a hostage.

I always thought that a ward and a hostage was basically the same thing.

Also just read a quote that i think shows that Theon does not see himself as a hostage.

Catelyn: If even part of what I suspect is true, Ned and my girls have ridden into deadly danger, and a word in the wrong ears could mean their lives.

Theon: Lord Eddard is a second father to me. I do so swear.

GRRM explained the differences. I linked to the vid in the last thread, or the one before that.

No, a ward isn't a hostage. A hostage may be called a "ward", as part of the "polite fiction", however. Also, a ward can naturally become a hostage, if hostilities break out.

And no, that quote proves nothing, other than the fact Theon is a captive who's learnt what his captors like hearing.

[WarLord]

85% No.

[Veltigar]

I'd link to the previous thread anyway. After having to sit through 20 pages where people were discussing the video and you failed to convince the majority that bothered to still post, that seems only fair.