Was Daenerys freeing the Unsullied was Astapor down fall?

[Black Dragons]

If Daenerys did not free the Unsullied would Astapor be standing? yes, but the system of Astapor is bad, but it works just because some works does it means it is ok? I known that someday the slavers would have raise up, but Daenerys gave them helping hand. It was King Cleon who killed the leaders that Dany pick and then going after Yunkin with half train soliers, what hell? then asking for hand in mariage! what? this King Cleon was full of himshelf Maybe if Daenerys stay in Astapor and train more Unsullied Without the cutting of peinses and then leave large army, for new leaders, and then after a few years of leading the people of Astapor leave with large army for new leaders that she pick at Astapor.

This is ALL KING CLEON Fault! If he just sit down, I think Yunkin would have NOT attack Astapor, he attack Yunkin FIRST and thinking that Deanerys would back him up!

[Mal Malenkirk]

All king Cleon's fault?

Daenerys destroyed the power structure of Astapor which is not a tragedy in itself because of how rotten it was. But then she creates an ad hoc council of people she barely know but think are nice and then leave them to their own device.

Of course, the various factions within the city proceeded to tear themselves apart more thoroughly and quickly than even Irak after the fall of Saddam Hussein because not only did Dany destroy thoroughly the previous power structure, she replaced it with a real half assed structure of her own and then left no millitary strenght to at least try to defend what little she had left behind and enforce its rule. It made no sense, it was a house of cards and it logically fell apart at the first gust of wind and now life in Astapor is actually worse than before Dany came along. Slavery is back with a vengeance with an extra helping of plague and starvation. Whoop-dee-doo.

That's why in Meereen she decided to stay and try to reform the city instead of doing another drive-by reform. It's a somewhat better approach but instead of changing things progressively over at least a decade, she tore the old order down radically and then acts impatiently when things don't rebuild themselves smoothly because she is on a time table and wants to be on her way to Westeros at some point.

It's getting absurd. By the end of ADWD, I hope she has realized that ending slavery in Slaver's Bay is the project of a life time, not some end of semester project you get to rush in a few all-nighter so you can move on with what you really want to do with your life. You want to do it? Abandon all design to return to Westeros and do it progressively. You want to go back to Westeros? Then stop mucking around in Slaver's Bay, you are currenlty making matters worse, which is saying something, given how shitty the area is to start with.

[Black Dragons]

Wow Mal Malenkirk very smart post! To tie in what happening to Iraq very smart! but remember that American did leave and army after 2003 war it was the Prime Misinter who wanted the american army thinking that he (PM) was contral of Sunni's people. NICE POST man!

[Mal Malenkirk]

This is ALL KING CLEON Fault! If he just sit down, I think Yunkin would have NOT attack Astapor, he attack Yunkin FIRST and thinking that Deanerys would back him up!

Oh, and frankly, with no Unsullied nor even what little military might the good maesters provided (they had half assed knights of sorts), that city was ripe for either conquest of good old sacking by just about anyone with ambitions.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Wow Mal Malenkirk very smart post! To tie in what happening to Iraq very smart! but remember that American did leave and army after 2003 war it was the Prime Misinter who wanted the american army thinking that he (PM) was contral of Sunni's people. NICE POST man!

Yeah, they did leave an army. It was still a decade of instability and as we can now see it's not clear that the new government will be able to hold. Or be all that friendly to American interests. Or all that democratic. All these deaths for that.

So my point was basically, if Dany is going to remove a government even more thoroughly than the USA did in Irak, leave behind an even more half assed attempt at a replacement government and defend it with NO SOLDIERS, then really, what hope did Astapor ever had?

[Game Of Thrones]

What makes the Good Masters so idiotic is that

1) they sell their whole army to a stranger in the middle of their city, in front of all their leaders

2) they advice Dany to sack cities with the Unsullied.

3) Even a military idiot like Dany realizes that with no Unsullied a modest khalasar could sack Astapor.

[Mal Malenkirk]

What makes the Good Masters so idiotic is that

1) they sell their whole army to a stranger in the middle of their city, in front of all their leaders

2) they advice Dany to sack cities with the Unsullied.

3) Even a military idiot like Dany realizes that with no Unsullied a modest khalasar could sack Astapor.

Do NOT get me started on that. Ugh. The good masters were not real people, they were a clumsy plot device designed to provide Dany with a free army.

Still, they did what they did and then Dany did what she did.

[Hodor's Dragon]

snip -> a military idiot like Dany <- snip

Jesus Christ, did you read these books? If there is one person Martin clearly wants us to see as a military genius, it's Daenerys. She's an untrained tweener girl, she plans all the battles herself, and everything goes off clean as a whistle even when she apparently had no chance.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Well, if we take a long run look at this. If we were to assume that Astapor is essentially gone, for all the death and tragedy were looking at what 250k at most right? And that's probably a huge overestimate since its really more of an estimate of the entire population of the city. So Take that 250k and divide it by 8k and you get 31.25. 31.25 generations of unsullied = more people than the entire death toll that has happened in westeros. Now if we add the fact that more than half of all that start as unsullied die in the process, and the fact that every unsullied has to kill an innocent baby, we can actually triple the 8k to 24k, in which case it is only 10.4 generations of unsullied equaling more than all the death that has occurred.

I honestly think in the long run the death toll is lower this way.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As I said in another thread my president (who is not a thirteen years old valyrian girl with dragon) did (or tried to, actually) the same Dany did. He reunited a council of "honourable" men to work with him as soon as he took the power and work hard for equality and human rights. And the Right wing kinda freaked out and said (paraphrasing) "what? what is this about dignity and values and morals?! I want my money! This is communism!", and kidnapped the country, freaked out everybody and fucked up everything. They are in charge again, even though we never actually voted for them.

So, yeah. Not Dany's fault.

[Game Of Thrones]

Jesus Christ, did you read these books? If there is one person Martin clearly wants us to see as a military genius, it's Daenerys. She's an untrained tweener girl, she plans all the battles herself, and everything goes off clean as a whistle even when she apparently had no chance.

Yeah. Totally. OK then.

[Game Of Thrones]

Well, if we take a long run look at this. If we were to assume that Astapor is essentially gone, for all the death and tragedy were looking at what 250k at most right? And that's probably a huge overestimate since its really more of an estimate of the entire population of the city. So Take that 250k and divide it by 8k and you get 31.25. 31.25 generations of unsullied = more people than the entire death toll that has happened in westeros. Now if we add the fact that more than half of all that start as unsullied die in the process, and the fact that every unsullied has to kill an innocent baby, we can actually triple the 8k to 24k, in which case it is only 10.4 generations of unsullied equaling more than all the death that has occurred.

I honestly think in the long run the death toll is lower this way.

But the Unsullied have returned.

[OldGimletEye]

Jesus Christ, did you read these books? If there is one person Martin clearly wants us to see as a military genius, it's Daenerys. She's an untrained tweener girl, she plans all the battles herself, and everything goes off clean as a whistle even when she apparently had no chance.

Then he has done a poor job at it. Because there is nothing about her that smacks of military genius. She doesn't know tactics very well. She has no grasp of the operational art. She doesn't even think about strategy. She has no knowledge of seige craft. Logistics don't exist in her head. And she hasn't really demonstrated any decent administrative abilities.

ETA:

And she has yet to demonstrate the "stroke of the eye" a hallmark of great tactical commanders.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

All king Cleon's fault?

Daenerys destroyed the power structure of Astapor which is not a tragedy in itself because of how rotten it was. But then she creates an ad hoc council of people she barely know but think are nice and then leave them to their own device.

Of course, the various factions within the city proceeded to tear themselves apart more thoroughly and quickly than even Irak after the fall of Saddam Hussein because not only did Dany destroy thoroughly the previous power structure, she replaced it with a real half assed structure of her own and then left no millitary strenght to at least try to defend what little she had left behind and enforce its rule. It made no sense, it was a house of cards and it logically fell apart at the first gust of wind and now life in Astapor is actually worse than before Dany came along. Slavery is back with a vengeance with an extra helping of plague and starvation. Whoop-dee-doo.

That's why in Meereen she decided to stay and try to reform the city instead of doing another drive-by reform. It's a somewhat better approach but instead of changing things progressively over at least a decade, she tore the old order down radically and then acts impatiently when things don't rebuild themselves smoothly because she is on a time table and wants to be on her way to Westeros at some point.

It's getting absurd. By the end of ADWD, I hope she has realized that ending slavery in Slaver's Bay is the project of a life time, not some end of semester project you get to rush in a few all-nighter so you can move on with what you really want to do with your life. You want to do it? Abandon all design to return to Westeros and do it progressively. You want to go back to Westeros? Then stop mucking around in Slaver's Bay, you are currenlty making matters worse, which is saying something, given how shitty the area is to start with.

I am a Dany stan and defender, and I agree with this post. Especially the bolded.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Yeah. Totally. OK then.

It was militarily impossible to defeat Yunkai and Meereen, yet she did it, and quickly. The plans were entirely hers.

You should go back and re-read the chapter about the defeat of Yunkai, starting with Dany's decisions to chat with her foes, and the timings of the chats. It's a study in how to conquer an impregnable city quickly when you have to or else your army starves. Totally brilliant, and her plan from start to finish was quite complex and interlocking.

The only other person in the series who wins an "impossible" victory was Theon, and if you think Dany didn't plan fully for victory, well, you would be right, but that's nothing compared to Theon. Look what victory got him. Maybe Dany will wind up reaping a similar reward, but as for now she has two impossible victories to her credit and she ain't captured yet.

[Visenya Stark]

What makes the Good Masters so idiotic is that

1) they sell their whole army to a stranger in the middle of their city, in front of all their leaders

2) they advice Dany to sack cities with the Unsullied.

3) Even a military idiot like Dany realizes that with no Unsullied a modest khalasar could sack Astapor.

I'm not trying to defend the good masters when I say this, but I'm pretty sure they were counting on a dragon to protect them.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Then he has done a poor job at it. Because there is nothing about her that smacks of military genius. Ummm, rapid victories over two impregnable cities = nothing? In my dictionary, "nothing" means something different. She doesn't know tactics very well. Only barely well enough to win brilliant victories. She has no grasp of the operational art. Which you would know how exactly, since she hasn't been involved in any operations, other than moving her army, which she did just fine? She doesn't even think about strategy. She has no knowledge of seige craft. She could be Vauban, Jr., and it wouldn't matter. She hasn't been involved in sieges. She took cities without them, because she didn't have time to build siege equipment. Logistics don't exist in her head. Evidence for this? I've heard nothing about her army going hungry or unarmed. And she hasn't really demonstrated any decent administrative abilities. If you're talking about political administration, she hasn't had much success at that. But that's not military.

ETA:

And she has yet to demonstrate the "stroke of the eye" a hallmark of great tactical commanders. What the hell is that? I'm an amateur military historian and I've never heard of it. I just googled it and got zilch. Whatever it is, if Dany didn't satisfy it with her brilliant victories at Yunkai and Meereen, it doesn't measure tactics very well.

Edit: Found it, it's a translation of the French coup d'oeil.

There is a gift of being able to see at a glance the possibilities offered by the terrain...One can call it the coup d'œil militaire and it is inborn in great generals.

- Napoleon Bonaparte

Now that I know what it is, it's exactly what Dany does. She's the one who arrives at two cities she has never seen before and creates detailed attack plans leading to rapid victory. If that's not coup d'oeil militaire, who in the series has it?

As the fruit of a young girl with (apparently) little or no military training, Daenerys' Slaver's Bay campaign, when considered solely as a military campaign, is beyond impressive and into outright genius. She is daring and decisive and every military decision she makes is spot on the money.

[Mal Malenkirk]

I honestly think in the long run the death toll is lower this way.

You may have missed the part where they resumed slavery. So it was all for nothing.

[Mal Malenkirk]

It was militarily impossible to defeat Yunkai and Meereen, yet she did it, and quickly. The plans were entirely hers.

Yeah. She defeated Yunkai because Daarios conveniently wants to fuck her and is willing to go to insane lenght to do it. And she defeated Meereen because apparently they don't lock the back door and somehow nobody noticed before. And of course there is the mind numbing stupidiy of the slavers of Astapor...

I try no to think too much about Dany's rise to power from Quarth to the sack of Meereen. Before or after this sequence, the normal laws of the universe apply, but between Quarth and the sack of Meereen everyone just becomes bumbling looney toon level idiots who might as well have just handed her power and resources for free. Her opponents were basically Daffy Duck. It's crazy.

[Hodor's Dragon]

snip -> I try no to think too much about Dany's rise to power from Quarth to the sack of Meereen. -> snip

Frankly, your conclusions already made that obvious. But I invited you to go back and re-read those chapters, this time with an eye to Dany's military decisions, which are numerous, decisive, and without exception correct. She is a decisive, in-charge tactical commander.

And I'm not talking to you here, but it seems to me that people are so unaccustomed to the idea of a teenage girl as a brilliant military commander that they just don't read what's in the text. She didn't win those victories by accident or luck, but by tactical planning.

Daario coming to her side was a nice help, but (1) she made that happen by her call for successive parlays and flexible response to opportunities proffered therein, and (2) she did enough to win that battle even if the Second Sons hadn't come over.