Jon and Mance's relationship is completely ridiculous

[kephv]

His reason for joining Mance was simply his way of saying he had had enough of living without options. "Did you see where they put the bastard," as in after they had him in the back long enough they shipped him off to the night's watch, neither of which were his choice. Him choosing to kill Halfhand and join the Wildings, or Ygritte really, was his choice to finally be free. Given Mance's backround, it's easy to see why he bought it, and why he respected it.

As for the rest, that intial interaction really impressed Mance, and subsequently decided how his future interactions with Jon would play out -- in a positive manner, since I don't think his initial appraisal of Jon really wore off.

[sifth]

Mance bluffed. These plans are extremely time consuming and he's running short.

Impossible to coordinate that without radio, especially in a society as militarily advanced as the Wildlings.

King in the North as well. Remember, Jon is 20 years younger than Mance. He'll expect to survive him.

It's actually rather easy. Send a 200 to 300 man raiding party over The Wall. Have that party wait at a certain location you've planned with the leaders in advance. Send a smaller raiding party or two over The Wall and inform the larger group which night the attack will take place. Both forces attack on the same night and The Wildings win.

This is not rocket science.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No more time-consuming than spending weeks attacking the gate of Castle Black. Mance could have been attacking ALL of those places at once without spreading himself thin. It's not as if he was even using a fraction of his forces to attack the gate. If he had attacked all of those at once, he would have broken the Wall before Stannis got there because odds are that at least ONE of those attacks would have worked.

Like Mance said, you don't go hunting with only one arrow in your quiver. But shooting one arrow at a time doesn't make sense when you have several archers who can all shoot an arrow at the same time.

All ten days of it?

Or all two gates?

It's actually rather easy. Send a 200 to 300 man raiding party over The Wall. Have that party wait at a certain location you've planned with the leaders in advance. Send a smaller raiding party or two over The Wall and inform the larger group which night the attack will take place. Both forces attack on the same night and The Wildings win.

This is not rocket science.

That smaller raiding party would need at least a week and will probably run into patrols.

[sifth]

All ten days of it?

Or all two gates?

That smaller raiding party would need at least a week and will probably run into patrols.

Send more than one party as I said above. Also if they stay away from East Watch and The Shadow Tower they'll be fine. The Watch can barley patrol the areas along The Wall that aren't near their castles, especially after The Old Bear took 1/3 of their men on his "Great Ranging". I'm not saying the Watch wouldn't still patrol the Wall with only 2/3's of it's strength, just that the odds of running into one such patrol would be a lot smaller.

[James Arryn]

All ten days of it?

Or all two gates?

That smaller raiding party would need at least a week and will probably run into patrols.

Yeah, and besides, why not use rockets? They're very impressive. Everyone's so down on rockets all of a sudden.

[Brightstar_]

Send more than one party as I said above. Also if they stay away from East Watch and The Shadow Tower they'll be fine. The Watch can barley patrol the areas along The Wall that aren't near their castles, especially after The Old Bear took 1/3 of their men on his "Great Ranging". I'm not saying the Watch wouldn't still patrol the Wall with only 2/3's of it's strength, just that the odds of running into one such patrol would be a lot smaller.

I agree with you. You need not even send 2 parties necessarily, you could just send 200 men or whatever number you want ahead of the main column, have them climb the wall and say " within 14 nights (or whatever number you prefer) we will attack Castle Black at nightfall, as soon as you hear their horns, wait for a few hours untill most of their men have gathered atop the Wall to stop our attack, then engage them, break their lift and open the gate" or something like this.

[sj4iy]

I agree with you. You need not even send 2 parties necessarily, you could just send 200 men or whatever number you want ahead of the main column, have them climb the wall and say " within 14 nights (or whatever number you prefer) we will attack Castle Black at nightfall, as soon as you hear their horns, wait for a few hours untill most of their men have gathered atop the Wall to stop out attack, then engage them, break their lift and open the gate" or something like this.

Look at what Mance in the show does- he sends 400 men to climb the Wall and attack CB immediately after he realizes that CB is understaffed.

[Brightstar_]

Look at what Mance in the show does- he sends 400 men to climb the Wall and attack CB immediately after he realizes that CB is understaffed.

Yes, well I meant to illustrate that there certainly are ways of timing a double attack on the Wall effectively without the use of radios. There are probably even far better ways than the one I put forward.

Personally I think the way of the show is pretty stupid, even though it might look badass. Mance is supposed to have 100.000 people out there in the woods and decides to light up a huge fire in the very woods said people are camping. How does he intend to control such a huge fire and make sure it doesn't kill some of his people, or rob them of shelter, building materials for siege equipment should he need them.... etc etc. The huge fire was just retarded IMO

[sifth]

Yes, well I meant to illustrate that there certainly are ways of timing a double attack on the Wall effectively without the use of radios. There are probably even far better ways than the one I put forward.

Personally I think the way of the show is pretty stupid, even though it might look badass. Mance is supposed to have 100.000 people out there in the woods and decides to light up a huge fire in the very woods said people are camping. How does he intend to control such a huge fire and make sure it doesn't kill some of his people, or rob them of shelter, building materials for siege equipment should he need them.... etc etc. The huge fire was just retarded IMO

I agree too, he should have attacked the main gate under the cover of dark, while his smaller force attacked from the south. There is no way Castle Black could fend off two attacks at the same time. The fire was just beyond stupid from a strategic stand point and mostly just done to provide lighting for the fight on tv, lol

[Brightstar_]

I agree too, he should have attacked the main gate under the cover of dark, while his smaller force attacked from the south. There is no way Castle Black could fend off two attacks at the same time. The fire was just beyond stupid from a strategic stand point and mostly just done to provide lighting for the fight on tv, lol

Yea exactly I hadn't even mentioned the absurd stupidity of the fire actually giving light to your foes so it's easier for them to feather you, or drop rocks at the right places.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Send more than one party as I said above. Also if they stay away from East Watch and The Shadow Tower they'll be fine. The Watch can barley patrol the areas along The Wall that aren't near their castles, especially after The Old Bear took 1/3 of their men on his "Great Ranging". I'm not saying the Watch wouldn't still patrol the Wall with only 2/3's of it's strength, just that the odds of running into one such patrol would be a lot smaller.

One day climbing the Wall. One day climbing down. Two days away from Castle Black. Two days back again. And one day for the Watch to send a patrol on top of the Wall to the spot.

I agree with you. You need not even send 2 parties necessarily, you could just send 200 men or whatever number you want ahead of the main column, have them climb the wall and say " within 14 nights (or whatever number you prefer) we will attack Castle Black at nightfall, as soon as you hear their horns, wait for a few hours untill most of their men have gathered atop the Wall to stop our attack, then engage them, break their lift and open the gate" or something like this.

And Mance's main column can make that? He's got a people, undisciplined refugees and all that. He'll arrive sometime. Not at the specified time.

[Brightstar_]

One day climbing the Wall. One day climbing down. Two days away from Castle Black. Two days back again. And one day for the Watch to send a patrol on top of the Wall to the spot.

And Mance's main column can make that? He's got a people, undisciplined refugees and all that. He'll arrive sometime. Not at the specified time.

Lol you're just creating problems. You can make a huge margin, make sure your main column is absolutely at the Wall at that time. That way even if you arrive early North of the Wall, you can already start attacking, it doesn't matter that the South party is a bit late, when they do attack at nightfall, the Watch will still be 100% surprised (perhaps even more so) and at a big disadvantage.

[sifth]

One day climbing the Wall. One day climbing down. Two days away from Castle Black. Two days back again. And one day for the Watch to send a patrol on top of the Wall to the spot.

And Mance's main column can make that? He's got a people, undisciplined refugees and all that. He'll arrive sometime. Not at the specified time.

An undermanned Wall, with most of it's castles empty. You do realize most of the people The Old Bear got killed on his "Great Ranging" were rangers. Who do you think make the patrols along the Wall? Two rangers one builder. Most of the rangers went with Mormont, leaving only a handful to patrol The Wall.

If all of that isn't enough simply send over more than one team. You seemed to ignore that part, unless you believe The Watch is a lot stronger than it really is, especially in the paroling department after having more than 1/3 of its men killed.

[Brightstar_]

He could even arrive at the Wall, and only just THEN send a party of 400 men to go climb the wall somewhere more to the West, swing back and attack CB withing X days, all the while waiting in front of the Wall, it's not like the Watch can do anything to him out there.

[Leonardo]

You guys are missing the big one

Why did Mance care so much about inducting a crow into their ranks and making him turn? Because MANCE himself turned, and if Jon doesn't turn and keep faith then who is to say mance will with it all on the line? Mance is a crow as well; he has to believe Jon can be turned

[James Arryn]

You guys are missing the big one

Why did Mance care so much about inducting a crow into their ranks and making him turn? Because MANCE himself turned, and if Jon doesn't turn and keep faith then who is to say mance will with it all on the line? Mance is a crow as well; he has to believe Jon can be turned

So Jon is like a fetish?

[Brightstar_]

You guys are missing the big one

Why did Mance care so much about inducting a crow into their ranks and making him turn? Because MANCE himself turned, and if Jon doesn't turn and keep faith then who is to say mance will with it all on the line? Mance is a crow as well; he has to believe Jon can be turned

I doubt that Mance questions his own decision to turn his cloak that much. "Oh no Jon Snow hasn't turned his cloak after all, what have I done with my life? Let's stop being King Beyond The Wall and try and go back to the NW or run away to the free cities". I don't really see that happening

[Leonardo]

So Jon is like a fetish?

More like a pet project that helps prove his own devotion and faith in the cause. Mance also sees a lot of himself in Jon, and like mormont was seemingly grooming him for command at one point, or possibly trying to train someone worthy enough to be his successor

[Leonardo]

I doubt that Mance questions his own decision to turn his cloak that much. "Oh no Jon Snow hasn't turned his cloak after all, what have I done with my life? Let's stop being King Beyond The Wall and try and go back to the NW or run away to the free cities". I don't really see that happening

It has to do with how the other wildlings see Mance as well; what's to keep the other crow from turning back?

[Brightstar_]

More like a pet project that helps prove his own devotion and faith in the cause. Mance also sees a lot of himself in Jon, and like mormont was seemingly grooming him for command at one point, or possibly trying to train someone worthy enough to be his successor

Well sure he might be interested in Jon and wants to see if any more crows can turn and follow his example, but I highly doubt he'd ever re-evaluate his own decision to become a turncloak just because Jon didn't .