Sansa a good character?

[Cas Stark]

Well, she's come to the fork in the road. LF has basically told her he intends for SR to die soon.

She will either go along with this, leading her down a much darker path, or this will be where she asserts herself and thwarts his plan.

[AliceRose]

I never said that she was the Anti Christ. I simply view certain passages in a different light, and I don't see her as "good". I see her as someone who wants to be good, and who wants to please, because that's what she's been taught. So much of her seems repressed, because she is repeating things "like a little bird". When she's not reciting her lines, I see a different person, and that person has a very dark side to her, in my opinion.

:agree: 1000% agree

[Morgul-Blade]

I see Sansa becoming a wickedly clever character. Baelish is exposing her to a sneaky craft, and I believe she will eventually excel at deception. Where other characters have had to rely on their own wits, Sansa can also use her name (Stark) and looks (by all counts, she's a bonafide babe) to her advantage.

[AliceRose]

I never said that she was the Anti Christ. I simply view certain passages in a different light, and I don't see her as "good". I see her as someone who wants to be good, and who wants to please, because that's what she's been taught. So much of her seems repressed, because she is repeating things "like a little bird". When she's not reciting her lines, I see a different person, and that person has a very dark side to her, in my opinion.

That's about it. I'm looking forward to TWOW, hopefully we will see more of who Sansa really is, and what kind of person she matures into. Maybe I'm right and Sansa's "dark side" comes out, maybe I'm wrong, and she just turns out to be all the things that people perceive her to be.

I'm rooting for the "dark" Sansa. Her goodness and kindness are not what i most like of her. I think her hidden side is super intriguing.

I mean dark as sarcastic, the idea that self loving and self caring person is dark makes me laugh.

I share your hope we will see who Sansa really is.

I want to see her free from false illusions and from repressive septa's education.

I hope to see a sincere person and a freethinker in her, god or bad are just nonsensical misjudgments.

[AliceRose]

I disagree with 70% of what you are saying, but i like your posts.

I see more darkness coming from Sansa than Mel had ever seen in her fires.

In the first book it was darkness of ignorance.

[Inigo Sand]

Very briefly, I saw Sansa as naive and self-centred early on, more a mildly annoying airhead than a character to take a strong dislike to. Towards the end of AGoT she starts to become more aware and at least from my point of view more deserving of sympathy. I like the way her character gradually grows and becomes more complex in the subsequent books. I see her as basically kind and compassionate, but with a lot of repressed pain and a growing capacity to be manipulative and possibly ruthless once she realises what she wants. So 'good?' - basically yes though let's see what happens. In any case I enjoy her chapters and have basically warmed to her as a character.

Incidentally, Sansa is probably the character that I'm least able to read without picturing her as portrayed on screen; I'm not sure why but maybe it is because while she is well-written, she isn't a stand-out personality and it was easy for Sophie Turner to drive out whatever previous ideas I had of her.

[Annara Snow]

I'm rooting for the "dark" Sansa. Her goodness and kindness are not what i most like of her. I think her hidden side is super intriguing.

I mean dark as sarcastic, the idea that self loving and self caring person is dark makes me laugh.

I share your hope we will see who Sansa really is.

I want to see her free from false illusions and from repressive septa's education.

I hope to see a sincere person and a freethinker in her, god or bad are just nonsensical misjudgments.

You do? That's odd, because as I remember, in another thread, you were arguing that you'd love Sansa to become LF's lover and partner. Which would mean, to fall completely under the false illusions he's trying to create and even more under his repressive influence, to do what LF wants and allow him to brainwash her and completely control her, rather than be self-caring and self-loving or a freethinker.

ANY form of criticism is apparently a bunch of horseshit. It is seriously ridiculous how protective people are of a fictional character. Show me the text that tells me Sansa is a good person. Not opinions! And the inability to discuss a character objectively is a "bunch of horseshit" to me to use your eloquent quote.

Nah, just those criticisms that actually are horseshit.

Like:

Let's ask Sansa if she's a good person. Hey, Lady Sansa! What do you think? Do you think you have a good heart?

"A good heart. I have a good heart. Hysterical laughter rose up her gullet, but Sansa choked it back down."

That pretty much sums it up. Opinions are one thing. Pointing out observations based on the way a character is written does not mean you "hate" the character. I do not hate Sansa, I actually enjoy reading her story quite a bit. I also enjoy Peter Baelish as a character, that doesn't make him a good person.

However, there are many passages that tell me Sansa is selfish and overly focused on herself, and I have no problem citing those to explain why I feel that way.

:lol: Are you for real? Sansa laughs hysterically when Lady Tanda tells her that she has a good heart because she assumes she is grieving for Joffrey, which Lady Tanda finds magnanimous because.... Joffrey broke up their betrothal and married her to Tyrion (because he's a dwarf, not because he's one of the Lannisters, that doesn't occur to Lady Tanda!) instead. Yes, that's what Lady Tanda thinks Sansa should hold against Joffrey - that he didn't marry her (learning of which was the happiest moment in her life in the last two years), rather than the fact that he executed her father in front of her, abused her and humiliated her publicly for a long time, and is generally a monster.

He had not been dead when she left the throne room. He had been on his knees, though, clawing at his throat, tearing at his own skin as he fought to breathe. The sight of it had been too terrible to watch, and she had turned and fled, sobbing. Lady Tanda had been fleeing as well. “You have a good heart, my lady,” she said to Sansa. “Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf.”

A good heart. I have a good heart. Hysterical laughter rose up her gullet, but Sansa choked it back down. The bells were ringing, slow and mournful. Ringing, ringing, ringing. They had rung for King Robert the same way. Joffrey was dead, he was dead, he was dead, dead, dead. Why was she crying, when she wanted to dance? Were they tears of joy?

So... yeah, what a terrible person Sansa is, eh, that she did not cry out of the grief for dear Joffrey? :rolleyes:

I guess your idea of "examples from the book" means taking a line completely out of context to try to argue the opposite of the actual text, hoping people won't notice.

@Mediteranneo - It's NOT about gender bias, and it shouldn't be. The last time I checked I was female, and I prefer Arya and Tyrion over Sansa for several reasons.

What, you can't be biased against other women because you're female? Have you ever heard of internalized misogyny? Cersei says hi.

This is the craziest logic I have ever heard. I banged every hot girl in my high school and I hate Sansa, that was some crazy generalization.

Good for you. Now, it seems you missed the fact that my crazy logic post included some five different possibilities, such as, that 1) Sansa reminds you of some pretty girl in school who was mean to you, 2) Sansa reminds you of some pretty girl in school you envied, 4) you saw too many bad teen movies and you pegged Sansa down as Mean Girl during AGOT and can't let go off it, or 5) you simply belong to the vast number of people who think that it's cool to hate girly things and despise girly teen girls (because teen girls can only be OK if they're tomboyish enough for you to decide they're badass enough to be treated as one of the boys). Also, that you probably (and possibly in addition to one of the previous) belong to those who 6) are shallow readers and haven't noticed any character development, insisting on the first impression they had of the character, and also possibly may belong to the group of 7) shallow readers who project their own flaw and claim they hate Sansa because she's shallow.

However, despite all that, you and a couple more people here only focused on the possibility 3) that Sansa reminds you of some pretty girl in school who didn't want to fuck you (one of the five to seven given possibilities), and ignored everything else. Hmmm. That's pretty interesting and probably says a lot about you.

Oh, and I'm willing to bet that you definitely belong to at least two if not three out of the above mentioned groups. I can tell you which, if you want. (Don't worry, I'm not saying some girl in school refused to fuck you. ) So, my crazy logic does not seem crazy at all.

[juanml82]

Sorry. That doesn't work. If Sansa's only concern was to not be put at risk, then she wouldn't have said a thing. She would have said nothing after Joff's fool comment.That's what a person would do if their only concern was not to get beaten. It would have been the safest course of action. By trying to manipulate Joffrey further, she put herself at risk.

After Joffrey said Dontos is a fool? Why? Sansa had just given Joffrey an excuse to continuously humiliate Dontos. Joffrey wasn't going to complain about that, he probably found it funny. There was no risk there, or at least, no more risks than the usual ones.

[juanml82]

You do? That's odd, because as I remember, in another thread, you were arguing that you'd love Sansa to become LF's lover and partner. Which would mean, to fall completely under the false illusions he's trying to create and even more under his repressive influence, to do what LF wants and allow him to brainwash her and completely control her, rather than be self-caring and self-loving or a freethinker.

Nah, just those criticisms that actually are horseshit.

Like:

:lol: Are you for real? Sansa laughs hysterically when Lady Tanda tells her that she has a good heart because she assumes she is grieving for Joffrey, which Lady Tanda finds magnanimous because.... Joffrey broke up their betrothal and married her to Tyrion (because he's a dwarf, not because he's one of the Lannisters, that doesn't occur to Lady Tanda!) instead. Yes, that's what Lady Tanda thinks Sansa should hold against Joffrey - that he didn't marry her (learning of which was the happiest moment in her life in the last two years), rather than the fact that he executed her father in front of her, abused her and humiliated her publicly for a long time, and is generally a monster.

So... yeah, what a terrible person Sansa is, eh, that she did not cry out of the grief for dear Joffrey? :rolleyes:

I guess your idea of "examples from the book" means taking a line completely out of context to try to argue the opposite of the actual text, hoping people won't notice.

What, you can't be biased against other women because you're female? Have you ever heard of internalized misogyny? Cersei says hi.

Good for you. Now, it seems you missed the fact that my crazy logic post included some five different possibilities, such as, that 1) Sansa reminds you of some pretty girl in school who was mean to you, 2) Sansa reminds you of some pretty girl in school you envied, 4) you saw too many bad teen movies and you pegged Sansa down as Mean Girl during AGOT and can't let go off it, or 5) you simply belong to the vast number of people who think that it's cool to hate girly things and despise girly teen girls (because teen girls can only be OK if they're tomboyish enough for you to decide they're badass enough to be treated as one of the boys). Also, that you probably (and possibly in addition to one of the previous) belong to those who 6) are shallow readers and haven't noticed any character development, insisting on the first impression they had of the character, and also possibly may belong to the group of 7) shallow readers who project their own flaw and claim they hate Sansa because she's shallow.

However, despite all that, you and a couple more people here only focused on the possibility 3) that Sansa reminds you of some pretty girl in school who didn't want to fuck you (one of the five to seven given possibilities), and ignored everything else. Hmmm. That's pretty interesting and probably says a lot about you.

Oh, and I'm willing to bet that you definitely belong to at least two if not three out of the above mentioned groups. I can tell you which, if you want. (Don't worry, I'm not saying some girl in school refused to fuck you. ) So, my crazy logic does not seem crazy at all.

Why are you so personally aggressive against people who don't like your personal favorite fictional character?

[OldGimletEye]

After Joffrey said Dontos is a fool? Why? Sansa had just given Joffrey an excuse to continuously humiliate Dontos. Joffrey wasn't going to complain about that, he probably found it funny. There was no risk there, or at least, no more risks than the usual ones.

So you would like to believe. But, I would submit the safest thing to her to say, would have been just to say "yes your grace" or to just shut up.

[LordQorgyle]

So by your logic if i don't like Jaime i ve got beaten up by a pretty boy at school or if i hate Brienne its because im a repressed trannie or something lile that?

[Hangover of the Morning]

Good for you. Now, it seems you missed the fact that my crazy logic post included some five different possibilities, such as, that 1) Sansa reminds you of some pretty girl in school who was mean to you, 2) Sansa reminds you of some pretty girl in school you envied, 4) you saw too many bad teen movies and you pegged Sansa down as Mean Girl during AGOT and can't let go off it, or 5) you simply belong to the vast number of people who think that it's cool to hate girly things and despise girly teen girls (because teen girls can only be OK if they're tomboyish enough for you to decide they're badass enough to be treated as one of the boys). Also, that you probably (and possibly in addition to one of the previous) belong to those who 6) are shallow readers and haven't noticed any character development, insisting on the first impression they had of the character, and also possibly may belong to the group of 7) shallow readers who project their own flaw and claim they hate Sansa because she's shallow.

However, despite all that, you and a couple more people here only focused on the possibility 3) that Sansa reminds you of some pretty girl in school who didn't want to fuck you (one of the five to seven given possibilities), and ignored everything else. Hmmm. That's pretty interesting and probably says a lot about you.

Oh, and I'm willing to bet that you definitely belong to at least two if not three out of the above mentioned groups. I can tell you which, if you want. (Don't worry, I'm not saying some girl in school refused to fuck you. ) So, my crazy logic does not seem crazy at all.

This is some fucked up logic and ridiculously insulting. It says way more about the poster than about the people it is supposed to be aimed at.

Sansa has always been one of my favourites but I am not denying that she has been and acted incredibly selfish in AGoT. I like her despite of that but I totally understand and respect why someone might not. I find only very few admirable qualities about Stannis but I don't think that people who like him are either idiots or have some serious issues.

Edit: It looks to me that if Annara Snow simply can't stand the idea that someone intelligent or reasonable might not like Sansa simply for how the characters is presented so she needs to belittle them and put them into some arbitrary categories, in order to dismiss their opinion.

[juanml82]

So you would like to believe. But, I would submit the safest thing to her to say, would have been just to say "yes your grace" or to just shut up.

And what other reaction could Joffrey have at that suggestion?

[Grail King]

Wow this has been interesting. Can someone explain to me how not liking sansa drives some of her fans batty? I love arya but do not.expect everyone to like her. Nor would I personally attack.them for not liking her.

Sansa is not likeable to me, if I had meet her in the real world she is not someonr I woulbefriends with.

And yes she was only 11 when she fucked up, but how old is arya now? And how many of you say.shit bout her. And arya has been through way more than sansa. Arya is trying to stay alive at 11sansa was dreaming of telling arya what to do when she became "queen"

I will never like sansa she is not someone I can connect with, but that doesnt mean iam going to insult people who do like her.but I cant promise not to laugh to myself when I read some of these posts.

Well then Arya is ahead of the curve with regards to Sansa in that Arya has killed at least one person who was not her right to kill something that Cersi also did,I also like Arya, not as much as Sansa, Arya has seen much horrors but she had people watching her back had no physical abuse as Sansa had.

As of now Sansa hasn't killed anyone the worst she did was try to not take sides, she should have told the King what she told Ned no question but; she is no where as bad or evil as 99% of the people in Westeros.

[Annara Snow]

This is some fucked up logic and ridiculously insulting. It says way more about the poster than about the people it is supposed to be aimed at.

What is seriously fucked up logic? That it says a lot about people when they only focus on something that has to do with sex and then ask "why are you making it all about sex"? Sorry, but it's true. It does say a lot about people when they only choose to focus on that.

Sansa has always been one of my favourites but I am not denying that she has been and acted incredibly selfish in AGoT. I like her despite of that but I totally understand and respect why someone might not.

Straw Man. It's not about liking or not liking Sansa, or whether she was nice in AGOT. It's about the people who focus on her behavior during the incident at the Trident as something that terrible and unforgivable that she can't be redeemed ever (as opposed to all the adults in the story who have committed murder, rape, torture...), refuse to see any character development since, and claim that nothing that GRRM wrote about her afterward was enough to make her sympathetic enough to not be hated. As you would know if you actually read my post and what I was replying to.

I find only very few admirable qualities about Stannis but I don't think that people who like him are either idiots or have some serious issues.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything.

[OldGimletEye]

And what other reaction could Joffrey have at that suggestion?

Well, given Joff's volatile nature, you would never know. But, yeah, probably saying as little as possible would have been the safest thing to do.

[Stargaryan]

@ Alice - Thank you, I appreciate your comment. If we all had the same opinions, we wouldn't have much to discuss.

@ Hangover of the morning - I agree with your statement in regards to the dubious logic used.

@Annara - You just want to argue and insult. Responding to you is just a waste of time, since all your looking for is fuel for more arguments. It's not constructive, and you simply don't accept or respect anybody else's opinion.

[Hangover of the Morning]

What is seriously fucked up logic? That it says a lot about people when they only focus on something that has to do with sex and then ask "why are you making it all about sex"? Sorry, but it's true. It does say a lot about people when they only choose to focus on that.

Straw Man. It's not about liking or not liking Sansa, or whether she was nice in AGOT. It's about the people who focus on her behavior during the incident at the Trident as something that terrible and unforgivable that she can't be redeemed ever (as opposed to all the adults in the story who have committed murder, rape, torture...), refuse to see any character development since, and claim that nothing that GRRM wrote about her afterward was enough to make her sympathetic enough to not be hated. As you would know if you actually read my post and what I was replying to.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything.

I haven't read all of the thread. I don't know what you are even discussing but it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that people that don't like or judge Sansa can only be doing so for the seven reasons you mentioned. So basically, they must have some issues such as didn't get fucked enough in high school" or are too shallow so their opinion is invalid. Anyone can do a cheap "psychological analysis" of you from your vehement attempts to force your own opinion onto everybody else.

From what I gathered, you are turning everything into a feminist and sexual issue.

Sansa is an interesting character but there's no reason putting her on pedestal and creating some kind of personality cult around her. People just don't like her for their own reason so get over it. Nobody is forcing you to love and appreciate their favourites. These are fictional characters so we can like them despite their questionable morality and dislike them even if they are super nice people

Regarding people focusing on one incident, so what. It happens in real life too. Someone betrays you or does something you don't like and even if they are nice people over all, you never become friends with them because of that one incident. Might be seen as petty or even hypocritical because you are friends with other people who did much worse things but that's life. People are complex and react to things differently. Maybe someone gets put off by Sansa because of her naivity. Sansa's naivety is understandable given her age but maybe people prefer to read about more mature characters that are better skilled at politics.

[AliceRose]

You do? That's odd, because as I remember, in another thread, you were arguing that you'd love Sansa to become LF's lover and partner. Which would mean, to fall completely under the false illusions he's trying to create and even more under his repressive influence, to do what LF wants and allow him to brainwash her and completely control her, rather than be self-caring and self-loving or a freethinker.

You got it right, it was another thread, ours different opinions about Baelish don't matter here. His influences are still better than anything septa Mordane has ever taught.

[Red Wedding Cake]

I think it's important to see why Sansa did all she did for the Lannisters. Sansa was willing to overlook Joffrey's violence at the Trident and Cersei punishing her direwolf because she truly believed she would become a queen with power. She believed she would live a life of luxury and everyone would have to listen to her, because she would be royalty.

“You won’t dare when I’m married to Joffrey. You’ll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace.”

When Joffrey executed her father against her pleas for mercy she realized she would never have the power and respect she wanted. Now that she's in the Vale she sees her path to power. When Sansa and Littlefinger are discussing their schemes she is the first to bring up Sweetrobin's demise.

He turned her hand over and lightly kissed her wrist. "So tell me sweetling -- why is Harry the Heir?"

Her eyes widened. "He is not Lady Waynwood's heir. He's Robert's heir. If Robert were to die..."