The "Winged Wolf" A Bran Stark Re-read Project - Part II ASOS & ADWD

[BearQueen87]

No, I think it's worth thinking about. One thing is that Bran and party are the farthest North in story that any have gone. As they get closer to the Heart of Winter, could that make a difference?

Quite possibly; we don't really know how anything works up there. I suppose on the most basic level it could just be GRRM pointing out that fire and ice are drawn to one another--they aren't as opposite as one might expect. The Others aren't scared of the fire but the fire might have some control over them; or at least "summons" them. Or it could be that there are things about the Others that we just don't know yet, but Coldhands (Bloodraven) does. It would speak to one of Bran's themes of stories from his childhood coming to life before his eyes, but with a different bent or twist--like the heroic quest of knights being decidedly more unglamorous than envisioned.

[DarkSister1001]

Quite possibly; we don't really know how anything works up there. I suppose on the most basic level it could just be GRRM pointing out that fire and ice are drawn to one another--they aren't as opposite as one might expect. The Others aren't scared of the fire but the fire might have some control over them; or at least "summons" them. Or it could be that there are things about the Others that we just don't know yet, but Coldhands (Bloodraven) does. It would speak to one of Bran's themes of stories from his childhood coming to life before his eyes, but with a different bent or twist--like the heroic quest of knights being decidedly more unglamorous than envisioned.

Ohhh, I like that. Kinda sounds like Jojen, "love and hate can mate". Also, when Bran comes back from eating in Summer there's a fire roaring and the meat is cracking and spitting. They're in the longhall of the village, but the smoke from there could still be seen. So they must not be too worried about the smoke being seen, but specifically the fire.

[DarkSister1001]

I don't think you're over analyzing at all. Think about this way: we have a bunch of cold and starving humans and cold and starving animals. Why would a sow--a slowing movie, fat, juicy, sow--be alive? It wouldn't. That thing would have become bacon as soon as any creature laid eyes on it and we know there are other animals in the woods around the same location. It's totally human flesh. It's the eating of the dead by those living beyond the pale of human existence. It adds a very creepy layer to Bran's story

Yes ma'am, super creepy. Thinking back to Varamyr and something (I think you) said about the "rules" of skinchanging and keeping their abilities in check. Perhaps eating human meat is a form of blood sacrifice that strengthens the abilities of the consumer. IF Jojenpaste is correct it would reinforce this idea.

[BearQueen87]

Yes ma'am, super creepy. Thinking back to Varamyr and something (I think you) said about the "rules" of skinchanging and keeping their abilities in check. Perhaps eating human meat is a form of blood sacrifice that strengthens the abilities of the consumer. IF Jojenpaste is correct it would reinforce this idea.

That's an interesting point, especially if it's true that BR is inhabiting Coldhands, he would know about any and all "special" means to enhance the consumer. And we already something akin to that in ASOIAF with Dany when she consumes the horse's heart. According to the Dothraki, if the mother can keep the heart down, both mother and fetus will be stronger and more able having eaten the heart of a swift steed.

I've been trying to piece together if there is some symbology or even foreshadowing at play with Bran's eating of the dead--and all I can draw is that eating the dead, or just the food of the underworld (which in a lot of ways Beyond the Wall is), is a big no no. Persephone is doomed to return to Hades for 6 months out of the year because she consumes the food of the dead. Given that we have a scene coming up in which Bran again eats "something" (Jojenpaste or not) I'm inclined to see the eating of the dead and then eating the food of the underworld in his last POV as "not good."

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Yes ma'am, super creepy. Thinking back to Varamyr and something (I think you) said about the "rules" of skinchanging and keeping their abilities in check. Perhaps eating human meat is a form of blood sacrifice that strengthens the abilities of the consumer. IF Jojenpaste is correct it would reinforce this idea.

I happen to have another idea about Jojenpaste.

I do believe that Jojen was sacrificed, and that that is the significance clearly being attached to his death. But not for the paste: rather, for the mysterious and seemingly magical storm around Winterfell. It is implied in Jon’s POV to not be natural:

The snow was falling heavily outside. “Wind’s from the south,” Yarwyck observed. “It’s blowing the snow right up against the Wall. See?”

He was right. The switchback stair was buried almost to the first landing, Jon saw, and the wooden doors of the ice cells and storerooms had vanished behind a wall of white.-Jon, ADWD.

"The winds of winter" customarily come from the North, but this blizzard comes from Winterfell.

The Old Gods also show or strongly suggested in canon to have some power over the wind. Osha says that the Old Gods “whisper” through a breeze. This is exactly what Bran manages to do when he attempts to speak to his father in the past:

“Father.” Bran’s voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves.

This and other pieces of evidences were used in the text to craft a theory that the Storm God of the Ironborn is in fact the Old Gods, and that the Hammer of Waters laid waste the Iron Islands as revenge for destroying a massive grove of weirwoods there (now known as Nagga’s Bones). The Damphair says that “ravens were creatures of the Storm God” and considers the possibly skingchanging Farwynds to be unholy. We learn in ADWD that ravens are in fact the chosen messengers and the second life of the Children and their First Men allies.

The Grey King was said to warm his Hall with the Nagga’s living fire, and fashioned a longship from the white wood of Ygg, a tree that devoured human flesh (that’s definitely weirwood). It would seem that he was burning weirwood, as there’s no other legends of sea monsters in Westeros like Nagga, and the description of Nagga’s Bones closely resembles dead weirwoods. When the Storm God’s wrath comes down on him, it specifically snuffs out that fire. Stannis, before the blizzard begins to decimate his southron soldiers, committed the same hated blasphemy by forcing the Free Folk burn branches of weirwood.

I would propose that the blizzard around Winterfell is a work of magic that serves a multitude of functions: to punish Stannis and the followers of R’hllor for burning weirwood, to slow that army down to give Bran time to return via Gorne’s Way, and to hide that army as it approaches Winterfell.

It’s even directly called a curse sent by the Old Gods by northmen and others who are either outright Stark loyalists at heart, or are of dubious loyalty to Bolton per a certain component of the GNC theory:

“The gods have turned against us,” old Lord Locke was heard to say in the Great Hall. “This is their wroth. A wind as cold as hell itself and snows that never end. We are cursed.”-Theon, ADWD

That was the night that Asha first heard the queen’s men muttering about a sacrifice—an offering to their red god, so he might end the storm. “The gods of the north have unleashed this storm on us,” Ser Corliss Penny said.-Asha, ADWD

What has your southron god to do with snow?” demanded Artos Flint. His black beard was crusted with ice. “This is the wroth of the old gods come upon us. It is them we should appease.”-Asha, ADWD

Notably, this blizzard falls after Bran’s last chapter, and hence Jojen’s disappearance.

In Davos's chapter, we learn of another Stark king who was aided by "the winds of winter" in retaking a strategically important castle:

When old King Edrick Stark had grown too feeble to defend his realm, the Wolf’s Den was captured by slavers from the Stepstones.

“Then a long cruel winter fell,” said Ser Bartimus. “The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he’d found chained up in the dungeons.” -Davos, ADWD.

The Storm has been very successful in pinning the castle's defenders inside and blinding them:

“He could be camped five feet from our walls with a hundred thousand men,” said an archer wearing Cerwyn colors. “We’d never see a one o’ them through this storm.”-Theon, ADWD.

“To fight Lord Stannis we would first need to find him,” Roose Ryswell pointed out. “Our scouts go out the Hunter’s Gate, but of late, none of them return.”-Theon, ADWD

“Twenty green boys, with spades,” Theon told him. “The snow fell heavily for days. So heavily that you could not see the castle walls ten yards away, no more than the men up on the battlements could see what was happening beyond those walls. So Crowfood set his boys to digging pits outside the castle gates, then blew his horn to lure Lord Bolton out. Instead he got the Freys. The snow had covered up the pits, so they rode right into them. Aenys broke his neck, I heard, but Ser Hosteen only lost a horse, more’s the pity.”-Theon, TWOW

The blizzard has perfectly served the interests of the Stark loyalists, but not exactly Stannis and certainly not the Bolton-Frey alliance. Those same winds have had little effect on the northman that march with Stannis:

The northmen fared much better, with their garrons and their bear-paws. Black Donnel Flint and his half-brother Artos only lost one man between them. The Liddles, the Wulls, and the Norreys lost none at all. One of Morgan Liddle’s mules had gone astray, but he seemed to think the Flints had stolen him.

The southerners looked a sorry lot, Asha thought—gaunt and hollow-cheeked, some pale and sick, others with red and wind-scoured faces. By contrast the northmen seemed hale and healthy, big ruddy men with beards as thick as bushes, clad in fur and iron. They might be cold and hungry too, but the marching had gone easier for them, with their garrons and their bear-paws.

Which brings us to the question of how Jojen’s death fits into this. His future death has been referenced since ACOK. He knows when and how he will die, and it comes up frequently in the narrative. Jojen says, “The gods gave me only greendreams. My task was to get you here. My part in this is done.” His last words in ADWD were, “He’s not the one who needs to be afraid.”

The Hammer of the Waters was said to be created as most powerful magic in ASOIAF is: with blood sacrifice. The Singers are said to either have sacrificed a 1000 human captives or their own children. Victarion practices blood sacrifice to manipulate the weather, and Stannis’s fast journey to the Wall was partly made possibly by unusually good winds after a blood sacrifice.

That's my theory anyways of Jojen's death.

[LongRider]

~~~snip~~~

I've been trying to piece together if there is some symbology or even foreshadowing at play with Bran's eating of the dead--and all I can draw is that eating the dead, or just the food of the underworld (which in a lot of ways Beyond the Wall is), is a big no no. Persephone is doomed to return to Hades for 6 months out of the year because she consumes the food of the dead. Given that we have a scene coming up in which Bran again eats "something" (Jojenpaste or not) I'm inclined to see the eating of the dead and then eating the food of the underworld in his last POV as "not good."

Really like these thoughts of the underworld and that the eating of their food, very interesting. Could the eating of the paste be a way not just enhance Bran's powers, but to tie him even tighter to the underworld?

I happen to have another idea about Jojenpaste.

I do believe that Jojen was sacrificed, ~~~snip~~~~

We can't say for sure that Jojen is even dead, I myself hope not.

[BearQueen87]

Really like these thoughts of the underworld and that the eating of their food, very interesting. Could the eating of the paste be a way not just enhance Bran's powers, but to tie him even tighter to the underworld?

Quite possibly. Like Persephone in her abduction myth, she is compelled to return to the World of the Dead because she has partaken of the food. Also, this may or may not have something to do with it, but I'll throw it out into the universe. In the ancient Greek world there is a custom called ξενια (xenia) that is translated as guest-friendship (something that obviously plays a huge role in ASOIAF with events like the Red Wedding and the Rat Cook, in which guest right is broken and judgement is had). But in the ancient Greek world, xenia was just as well-regarded as it is in ASOIAF. Basically, both sides--guest and host--owe each other reciprocity. So if the host provides food and shelter, then you owe him a favor or a gift. This is why gifts are brought before the host and then you eat bread and salt and wine: it's highly ritualized. It ties you to each other. If Bloodraven is helping, feeding, and sheltering Bran, as well as Jojen, Meera, and Hodor, in the cave then xenia dictates that Bran owes Bloodraven something in return---like maybe taking over that weirwood throne should Bloodraven chose to pass on. Partaking of the food--paste or otherwise--might mean that Bran *has* to come back by the rules of xenia in which he owes Bloodraven for everything.

[LongRider]

Quite possibly. Like Persephone in her abduction myth, she is compelled to return to the World of the Dead because she has partaken of the food. Also, this may or may not have something to do with it, but I'll throw it out into the universe. In the ancient Greek world there is a custom called ξενια (xenia) that is translated as guest-friendship (something that obviously plays a huge role in ASOIAF with events like the Red Wedding and the Rat Cook, in which guest right is broken and judgement is had). But in the ancient Greek world, xenia was just as well-regarded as it is in ASOIAF. Basically, both sides--guest and host--owe each other reciprocity. So if the host provides food and shelter, then you owe him a favor or a gift. This is why gifts are brought before the host and then you eat bread and salt and wine: it's highly ritualized. It ties you to each other. If Bloodraven is helping, feeding, and sheltering Bran, as well as Jojen, Meera, and Hodor, in the cave then xenia dictates that Bran owes Bloodraven something in return---like maybe taking over that weirwood throne should Bloodraven chose to pass on. Partaking of the food--paste or otherwise--might mean that Bran *has* to come back by the rules of xenia in which he owes Bloodraven for everything.

Thanks for your answer BearQueen! I peeked ahead and all of the party eat food found in the cave or of CotF origin. But that's getting ahead. I'll just have to ask my questions later. Anyway, enjoyed your write up.

[BearQueen87]

*The Plan*

So ADWD Bran II is written and ready (though maybe in need of another edit or two...). But I see that some of the "regulars" haven't had a chance to comment on Bran I yet so I think I'll hold off for a few more days with the understanding that Bran II is going up at the latest by the 5th (Friday) so that it can be read over the weekend if people feel so inclined.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

*The Plan*

So ADWD Bran II is written and ready (though maybe in need of another edit or two...). But I see that some of the "regulars" haven't had a chance to comment on Bran I yet so I think I'll hold off for a few more days with the understanding that Bran II is going up at the latest by the 5th (Friday) so that it can be read over the weekend if people feel so inclined.

That's fine with me :)

I just caught up so I'll be posting my comment this night or tomorrow

[DarkSister1001]

That's an interesting point, especially if it's true that BR is inhabiting Coldhands, he would know about any and all "special" means to enhance the consumer. And we already something akin to that in ASOIAF with Dany when she consumes the horse's heart. According to the Dothraki, if the mother can keep the heart down, both mother and fetus will be stronger and more able having eaten the heart of a swift steed.

I've been trying to piece together if there is some symbology or even foreshadowing at play with Bran's eating of the dead--and all I can draw is that eating the dead, or just the food of the underworld (which in a lot of ways Beyond the Wall is), is a big no no. Persephone is doomed to return to Hades for 6 months out of the year because she consumes the food of the dead. Given that we have a scene coming up in which Bran again eats "something" (Jojenpaste or not) I'm inclined to see the eating of the dead and then eating the food of the underworld in his last POV as "not good."

Honestly, I have never read the Jojenpaste theory. I've heard enough of it to get the premise, but until I read it I'm can't commit to it. And that'll be a while longer since the search function isn't working. If eating the dead increases strength then their "pork meal" should make them all stronger. Or is it just those that already have supernatural gifts? Would that affect Jojen or is he not considered "magical" since it's the dreams sent by BR and not a talent he was born with?

I happen to have another idea about Jojenpaste.

I do believe that Jojen was sacrificed, and that that is the significance clearly being attached to his death. But not for the paste: rather, for the mysterious and seemingly magical storm around Winterfell. It is implied in Jon’s POV to not be natural:

The snow was falling heavily outside. “Wind’s from the south,” Yarwyck observed. “It’s blowing the snow right up against the Wall. See?”

He was right. The switchback stair was buried almost to the first landing, Jon saw, and the wooden doors of the ice cells and storerooms had vanished behind a wall of white.-Jon, ADWD.

"The winds of winter" customarily come from the North, but this blizzard comes from Winterfell.

The Old Gods also show or strongly suggested in canon to have some power over the wind. Osha says that the Old Gods “whisper” through a breeze. This is exactly what Bran manages to do when he attempts to speak to his father in the past:

“Father.” Bran’s voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves.

This and other pieces of evidences were used in the text to craft a theory that the Storm God of the Ironborn is in fact the Old Gods, and that the Hammer of Waters laid waste the Iron Islands as revenge for destroying a massive grove of weirwoods there (now known as Nagga’s Bones). The Damphair says that “ravens were creatures of the Storm God” and considers the possibly skingchanging Farwynds to be unholy. We learn in ADWD that ravens are in fact the chosen messengers and the second life of the Children and their First Men allies.

The Grey King was said to warm his Hall with the Nagga’s living fire, and fashioned a longship from the white wood of Ygg, a tree that devoured human flesh (that’s definitely weirwood). It would seem that he was burning weirwood, as there’s no other legends of sea monsters in Westeros like Nagga, and the description of Nagga’s Bones closely resembles dead weirwoods. When the Storm God’s wrath comes down on him, it specifically snuffs out that fire. Stannis, before the blizzard begins to decimate his southron soldiers, committed the same hated blasphemy by forcing the Free Folk burn branches of weirwood.

I would propose that the blizzard around Winterfell is a work of magic that serves a multitude of functions: to punish Stannis and the followers of R’hllor for burning weirwood, to slow that army down to give Bran time to return via Gorne’s Way, and to hide that army as it approaches Winterfell.

It’s even directly called a curse sent by the Old Gods by northmen and others who are either outright Stark loyalists at heart, or are of dubious loyalty to Bolton per a certain component of the GNC theory:

“The gods have turned against us,” old Lord Locke was heard to say in the Great Hall. “This is their wroth. A wind as cold as hell itself and snows that never end. We are cursed.”-Theon, ADWD

That was the night that Asha first heard the queen’s men muttering about a sacrifice—an offering to their red god, so he might end the storm. “The gods of the north have unleashed this storm on us,” Ser Corliss Penny said.-Asha, ADWD

What has your southron god to do with snow?” demanded Artos Flint. His black beard was crusted with ice. “This is the wroth of the old gods come upon us. It is them we should appease.”-Asha, ADWD

Notably, this blizzard falls after Bran’s last chapter, and hence Jojen’s disappearance.

In Davos's chapter, we learn of another Stark king who was aided by "the winds of winter" in retaking a strategically important castle:

When old King Edrick Stark had grown too feeble to defend his realm, the Wolf’s Den was captured by slavers from the Stepstones.

“Then a long cruel winter fell,” said Ser Bartimus. “The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he’d found chained up in the dungeons.” -Davos, ADWD.

The Storm has been very successful in pinning the castle's defenders inside and blinding them:

“He could be camped five feet from our walls with a hundred thousand men,” said an archer wearing Cerwyn colors. “We’d never see a one o’ them through this storm.”-Theon, ADWD.

“To fight Lord Stannis we would first need to find him,” Roose Ryswell pointed out. “Our scouts go out the Hunter’s Gate, but of late, none of them return.”-Theon, ADWD

“Twenty green boys, with spades,” Theon told him. “The snow fell heavily for days. So heavily that you could not see the castle walls ten yards away, no more than the men up on the battlements could see what was happening beyond those walls. So Crowfood set his boys to digging pits outside the castle gates, then blew his horn to lure Lord Bolton out. Instead he got the Freys. The snow had covered up the pits, so they rode right into them. Aenys broke his neck, I heard, but Ser Hosteen only lost a horse, more’s the pity.”-Theon, TWOW

The blizzard has perfectly served the interests of the Stark loyalists, but not exactly Stannis and certainly not the Bolton-Frey alliance. Those same winds have had little effect on the northman that march with Stannis:

The northmen fared much better, with their garrons and their bear-paws. Black Donnel Flint and his half-brother Artos only lost one man between them. The Liddles, the Wulls, and the Norreys lost none at all. One of Morgan Liddle’s mules had gone astray, but he seemed to think the Flints had stolen him.

The southerners looked a sorry lot, Asha thought—gaunt and hollow-cheeked, some pale and sick, others with red and wind-scoured faces. By contrast the northmen seemed hale and healthy, big ruddy men with beards as thick as bushes, clad in fur and iron. They might be cold and hungry too, but the marching had gone easier for them, with their garrons and their bear-paws.

Which brings us to the question of how Jojen’s death fits into this. His future death has been referenced since ACOK. He knows when and how he will die, and it comes up frequently in the narrative. Jojen says, “The gods gave me only greendreams. My task was to get you here. My part in this is done.” His last words in ADWD were, “He’s not the one who needs to be afraid.”

The Hammer of the Waters was said to be created as most powerful magic in ASOIAF is: with blood sacrifice. The Singers are said to either have sacrificed a 1000 human captives or their own children. Victarion practices blood sacrifice to manipulate the weather, and Stannis’s fast journey to the Wall was partly made possibly by unusually good winds after a blood sacrifice.

That's my theory anyways of Jojen's death.

Very interesting stuff. I agree that the burning of the WW branches ruffled some old god feathers. But I hadn't considered that the storm had another purpose, stalling for Bran. Thanks!

*The Plan*

So ADWD Bran II is written and ready (though maybe in need of another edit or two...). But I see that some of the "regulars" haven't had a chance to comment on Bran I yet so I think I'll hold off for a few more days with the understanding that Bran II is going up at the latest by the 5th (Friday) so that it can be read over the weekend if people feel so inclined.

Sounds good. I just got back from a weekend away without internet connection and couldn't participate.

[LongRider]

The search function is down, but one can use google. To find this thread I googled: westeros.org/jojenpaste

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/56772-jojen-reeds-fate-adwd-spoilers/

This will get you started.

[DarkSister1001]

The search function is down, but one can use google. To find this thread I googled: westeros.org/jojenpaste

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/56772-jojen-reeds-fate-adwd-spoilers/

This will get you started.

Thanks. There's some restrictions on the PC I use so I didn't have another option.

ETA: I think I have read this thread before, but didn't think there was enough there for the claim. All I was ever able to find before was that Jojen was dead and Bran was eatinf Jojen paste.

[Tijgy]

I happen to have another idea about Jojenpaste.

- Snip -

I love this theory more than the Jojenpaste. Amazing connections btw.

To be honest, I always had major objections about the Jojenpaste theory. But I think that discussion about the Jojenpaste should be left, when we are rereading the last Bran Chapter.

About BR = CH: It is clearly show that BR and CH are connected with each other.

Some would fly to the ranger and mutter at him, and it seemed to Bran that he understood their quorks and squacks. They are his eyes and ears. They scout for him, and whisper to him of dangers ahead and behind.

(...)

All the big black birds had left them when the ranger did. No one was listening. Even so, he kept his voice low.

(...)

"They were foes."

"You killed them. You and the ravens. Their faces were all torn, and their eyes were gone." Coldhands did not deny it. "They were your brothers.(...)"

(...)

The ranger studied his hands if he had never noticed them before.

In next Bran chapter Leaf says: "No. They killed him long ago"

All those ravens refer directly BR. In this chapter GRRM even mentioned indirectly the feeling of the paranoia during the time BR was Hand of the King (How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? A thousand eyes, and one), when Bran is still whispering, even when the ravens left.

But I think you can indeed ask the question is CH just a corpse warged by BR or a dead person who is allied/serves BR.

CH has first of all a lot of similarities with the wights. He is also dead, same characteristics, ... And the wights might have some memories. Until now I really thought CH was his own person who allied himself with BR.

But now, I don't know anymore. I might be wrong, you can only warg one animal/person at the same time. So if BR was really warging CH, he was not able to warg the ravens, ... With who did CH=BR talk to, when the ravens were talking to him?

This question might be answered also in a later Bran chapter: "Long dead, yet a part of her remains (...) "Do all the birds have singers in them?" " All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the FM to send messages by raven ... but in those days, the birds would speak the words.".

So are those ravens with CH just dead singers who are spying for CH=BR or are the ravens warged by BR and are accompanying CH (which is then not a corpse warged by BR and which was actually my original opinion)

What interesting is how CH reacts on the killing of the NW-Men. He is indeed very pragmatic about it, just like BR. It is something necessary to be done for achieving his aim. And the most interesting are the words of Bran, when he objects against the CH killing the NW: "They were your brothers". And the person who was actually known as an actually kinslayer, is of course BR.

Another possible reference to the fact somebody is warging that corpse, is "The ranger studied his hands if he had never noticed them before".

So I am also starting to think CH=BR and CH is not just a servant/ally of BR.

If you take that for truth, the last sentences of the chapter are actually starting to make some sense.

Meera: "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

CH: "A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer."

Bran: "A monster"

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your Monster, Brandon Stark."

"Yours," The ravens echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer's song of "Yours, yours, yours".

"Jojen, did you dream this?" Meera asked her brother. "Who is he? What is he? What do we now?"

"We go with the ranger," said Jojen. (...) "We go with Bran's monster, or we die."

I read somewhere (long time ago) in this forum a discussion about these last sentences of this chapter. There was a discussion, because people were confused about, at first, they were talking about the last greenseer, who was named as "Your Monster, Brandon Stark" and then suddenly Jojen calls the ranger(=CH) Bran's monster. People were confused, (and me too) about the fact two different persons were actually called Bran's monster.

But if you think BR is CH, those last sentences are actually not confusing anymore. You can maybe even say that Jojen says actually literally ranger (CH) = Bran's monster = last greenseer.

[BearQueen87]

Honestly, I have never read the Jojenpaste theory. I've heard enough of it to get the premise, but until I read it I'm can't commit to it. And that'll be a while longer since the search function isn't working. If eating the dead increases strength then their "pork meal" should make them all stronger. Or is it just those that already have supernatural gifts? Would that affect Jojen or is he not considered "magical" since it's the dreams sent by BR and not a talent he was born with?

There is an idea in some cultures that eating the dead allows you to absorb their powers because you've literally ingested them. If Jojenpaste is real (which I highly doubt, actually) then it could be that Bran will start having greedreams because he has taken on Jojen's power.

[BearQueen87]

I love this theory more than the Jojenpaste. Amazing connections btw.

To be honest, I always had major objections about the Jojenpaste theory. But I think that discussion about the Jojenpaste should be left, when we are rereading the last Bran Chapter.

About BR = CH: It is clearly show that BR and CH are connected with each other.

[snip]

After reading Bran I again and working on Bran II, I think CH = BR warged as well. It sounds like something BR would do, no? Do something that is considered an "abomination" in order to carry out the best course of action for what he feels is the greater good? Think about his time before he went to the Wall.

1) Killed Daemon Blackfyre and was labeled Kinslayer even though it ended the Blackfyre Rebellion and saved his family

2) Probably used his powers in greedreaming and warging to keep an eye on the Kingdom and keep it peaceful as much as he could even though everyone feared that he dabbled in the black arts.

3) Killed the Blackfyre envoy on the way to the GC when Egg was eventually chosen to be King. Was labeled a traitor and sent to the Wall but maintained that he did was he did out of honor.

So what's being labeled an abomination (and who, indeed would even call him that since the COTF don't appear to have a great concern over it)...it's just one more thing thrown at him but if it serves the greater good, then who cares?

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

There's two other thing that should be mentioned:

1. Bran has tasted human flesh in Summer's body. He knows what it tastes like. He knows where CH's "pork" came from.
2. Does anyone else see the image of the Christian communion in the eating of the weirwood paste and then the vision where the captive is sacrificed and Bran could "taste the blood" (just like in the wolf dreams, all the way back ACOK)? He eats of the body and drinks of the blood of divinity: The passage runs like this:
   
   

   “No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth ... but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

   Before he drinks from what is the Stark equivalent of the Holy Grail (which is a gift of the gods passed down through the generations, like the Heart Tree), he is "broken", just as the Fisher King was also called "The Wounded King". But once Bran does, he is "Brandon Stark", healed and reborn. He now sees what nourished that "monstrous stone tree" that the Builder planted, the source of House Stark's power and growth through the generations. Marriage alliance or not (certainly, what was possibly some magical mingling of blood), human sacrifice was clearly a part of the bargain.

   Also, this won't be the last time Bran will have a vision of a human sacrifice, or drink human blood.

[BearQueen87]

1. Does anyone else see the image of the Christian communion in the eating of the weirwood paste and then the vision where the captive is sacrificed and Bran could "taste the blood" (just like in the wolf dreams, all the way back ACOK)? He eats of the body and drinks of the blood of divinity: The passage runs like this:

   “No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth ... but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

   Before he drinks from what is the Stark equivalent of the Holy Grail (which is a gift of the gods passed down through the generations, like the Heart Tree), he is "broken", just as the Fisher King was also called "The Wounded King". But once Bran does, he is "Brandon Stark", healed and reborn. He now sees what nourished that "monstrous stone tree" that the Builder planted, the source of House Stark's power and growth through the generations. Marriage alliance or not (certainly, what was possibly some magical mingling of blood), human sacrifice was clearly a part of the bargain.

   Also, this won't be the last time Bran will have a vision of a human sacrifice, or drink human blood.

Certainly, though I don't know that I'd localize the ritualized eating and drinking to *just* Christianity. Like I mentioned up thread, there are plenty of pre-Christian and even post-Christian cultures and religions who ingest some sort of sacred food/blood to bring themselves closer to the divine or as part of their own beliefs. Even in the ASOIAF universe, we have evidence of this with Maggy the Frog needing to taste blood in order to have a vision. Shamisim and cultures with a strong sense of totenism will mix the blood or body of their sacred animal into some sort of paste that their priests then eat in order to commune with the divine and the spiritual world. The Greeks offered up animal sacrifices quite extensively as part of their rituals. The offal was offered up to the gods in massive fires, but the rest of the meat was eaten by the participants, banquet style, after being blessed. It was a way to not only appease the gods and ask for whatever was needed (rain, an end of war, victory, children) but also to cement the relationship between the human and the divine. Christianity takes it a step further with its communion and says that the participants are eating of the divine in that the bread and wine literally becomes the body and blood of Jesus Christ after a Priest has blessed them. I wouldn't say that Bran is eating and drinking of the divine in the same way that certain sects of Christianity believe they are eating and drinking of Christ (because the sacrificed victim isn't themselves divine, at least not that I can tell) but rather that Bran becomes the divine by receiving the sacrifice.

As for your quoted passage and that particular sacrifice, since we aren't quite there yet, I'll refrain from too much commentary but I've always seen that particular vision as a φαρμακος {pharmakos) or as we know it: a scapegoat ritual in times of disaster that is meant to bring about peace, harmony, and other shiny things.

[DarkSister1001]

There is an idea in some cultures that eating the dead allows you to absorb their powers because you've literally ingested them. If Jojenpaste is real (which I highly doubt, actually) then it could be that Bran will start having greedreams because he has taken on Jojen's power.

Thanks, IDK why I didn't make that connection.

After reading Bran I again and working on Bran II, I think CH = BR warged as well. It sounds like something BR would do, no? Do something that is considered an "abomination" in order to carry out the best course of action for what he feels is the greater good? Think about his time before he went to the Wall.

1) Killed Daemon Blackfyre and was labeled Kinslayer even though it ended the Blackfyre Rebellion and saved his family

2) Probably used his powers in greedreaming and warging to keep an eye on the Kingdom and keep it peaceful as much as he could even though everyone feared that he dabbled in the black arts.

3) Killed the Blackfyre envoy on the way to the GC when Egg was eventually chosen to be King. Was labeled a traitor and sent to the Wall but maintained that he did was he did out of honor.

So what's being labeled an abomination (and who, indeed would even call him that since the COTF don't appear to have a great concern over it)...it's just one more thing thrown at him but if it serves the greater good, then who cares?

I agree. It's easy for us to sympathize with characters when we have their POV. Without knowing their thoughts you can't really know what's happening. Take Jon for example, we all know his orders from the Halfhand and his motives for letting the wildlings pass the wall, but there are plenty of characters that don't know the intimate details and are pretty pissed off at him. Perhaps if we had BRs POV we may view him differently, like most of us do Jon. On the surface they look like renegades with scary powers that are just doing whatever the hell they want.

[Tijgy]

(not to be disrespectful against albinos)

But during time, would BR not have been considered as a abomination/freak of nature, because he is an albino?

We should maybe keep a discussion about him for later, when we really meet him, but albino's are still being persecuted and killed, because they believe either the body parts are magical and give luck or they believe albino's are presumed to be cursed and to bring bad luck. During the D&E's tales it is shown a lot how they actually blame BR for a lot of misfortune in the 7 Kingdoms.

The question is also did he really kill himself Daemon and those two boys? Did it really happen how it is told in the Sworn Sword?

"The Raven's Teeth had gained the top of Weeping Ridge, and Bloodraven saw his half brother’s royal standard three hundred yards away, and Daemon and his sons beneath it. He slew Aegon first, the elder of the twins, for he knew that Daemon would never leave the boy whilst warmth lingered in his body, though white shafts fell like rain"

Were Daemon and those two boys not just killed during the war?

What I also found an (indirect) quote of him, something he said once to Maekar according to Egg: "It is better to be frightening than to be frightened". People were probably either frightened or disgusted by him, because he was an albino. And then he dressed himself in colours of blood and smoke. I really believe a lot of those stories were actually how he wanted people to see him.

To be honest, I actually sympathize with him, certainly with the man he was before he went to wall (We don't know what the intentions are of the 3EC...) Already in his twenties he was serving his brother Dareon in the small council and he never stopped serving his family until he was sent by the wall. And for that loyalty he was rewarded in the end by being sent to the wall (to be honest I actually believe he did it more to make sure Dareon's line would be unless he knew that the descendants of Dareon would be essential to rescue the realm. Who knows what BR knew?). So yeah, during all the time he worked for Dareon and his heirs, he was hated by almost everyone and his mistress kept refusing to marry him. Very sad story...