The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ... Part II

[BearQueen87]

Bear Queen/MOIAF How sad must that be? Not just to think you're the last of your kind, but the last of your kind that there will ever be. The Targaryens are like a family tree in reverse, with their numbers being whittled down to just one person who's hunted by assassins, and who thinks she's barren. She's like The Last of the Giants.

 

Very sad. I think it also plays some part in why she becomes a rescuer (through any means necessary)--she doesn't want to see another family/people on the brink of extinction. Everyone should have a family or pack, hence why along with her "save the people" crusade, she adds a few of them to her personal retinue.

[Colonel Green]

Furthermore, Cersei and Tywin strip her of the name ‘Stark’ to some degree by marrying her to Tyrion. By doing this, they effectively ensure that the North will reject her. Stannis doesn’t seem to think she is still a Stark. I wonder how many of the northern lords would support her claim to Winterfell and completely disregard her marriage.

On this point, people overlook the context in which Stannis says that.  He disregards Sansa's claim as part of his argument for why Jon should accept his offer to be Lord of Winterfell.  He never refers to fArya as "Lady Bolton", by comparison, and none of the Northerners who form part of his army at that point in the story seem to think less of her for being forced into marriage with House Bolton, who should be every bit as despised in the North as the Lannisters themselves.

[BlueDragon]

Following up on the idea that Dany is a rescuer, it is clear to me that as soon as she learns of the wws and the threat they present, she will be committed to crossing the narrow sea with or without Dothraki. 

 

I'm not sure how useful Dothraki will be against WWs. They seem to fear magic in all its forms. Facing an army of the undead who need to be burned or hacked to tiny pieces does not seem to be something they would embrace. They aren't going to be comfortable with Valarian steel even if it could be found. Perhaps something fashioned out of obsidian would appeal to them.

 

This means that either they get left behind or they are pretty ineffective once they get to Westeros. I just don't see them being huge heroes in the main battles, but like all of us, I could be totally wrong.

 

I, too, believe Dany was pregnant and had a miscarriage. In fact, I never believed she was barren. So one possible ending is Dany and Jon on the throne with heirs.

 

If I had to guess, I would think Viserys would have used Drogo to gain his throne and then reclaimed his sister as consort. He would have failed, of course, but I think he would have wanted a pure Targarean as his heir. He probably would have had her killed or locked up after he got an heir and a spare on her. All moot, of course.

 

If Jon stays dead and Dany wins the throne and is fertile, who will she choose to marry? Who will be left??? Rickon? 

 

Not Tyrion no matter what his heritage, and for the record, he is clearly Tywin's son in my mind. His aunt pointing that out only served to reinforce what I think is obvious. 

 

Will Dany think a Stark child a good compromise as an heir? Arya paired with someone?

 

If Gendry winds up forging Valarian steel into hundreds of swords, will he be redeemed as a possible partner for Ayra and an heir to the throne if Dany is barren?

 

I don't buy the idea that Sansa will have much to do except pick up the pieces. She may make a key decision at some point that helps her brothers and even Dany fight the wws.  I see her as a possible wise aunt figure when spring comes.

[Drogonthedread]

I think the reason GRRM have made dothraki best in their archer skills is becuause it will be the efficient way to fight others by aiming fire arrows at them

[BearQueen87]

Following up on the idea that Dany is a rescuer, it is clear to me that as soon as she learns of the wws and the threat they present, she will be committed to crossing the narrow sea with or without Dothraki. 

 

 

I would agree except that I have no idea how Dany would come to learn of the White Walkers before she lands at Westeros. Even Tyrion knows nothing about them. Unless Quaithe starts being helpful (not bloody likely) or she gets a very clear drams of them, then the WWs are going to be a surprise to Dany as well. But I'd agree that once she learns of them, she'll head north to defend Westeros (the world) from the WWs.

 

 

This means that either they get left behind or they are pretty ineffective once they get to Westeros. I just don't see them being huge heroes in the main battles, but like all of us, I could be totally wrong.

 

WRT the Dothraki I agree that they might be less than super effective against the WW's but I'd also say the vast majority of Westeros is going to be pretty gosh dark ineffective against these things. Thus far, Sam in a desperate attempt to save Gilly have staved off one of these WWs.

 

 

I don't buy the idea that Sansa will have much to do except pick up the pieces. She may make a key decision at some point that helps her brothers and even Dany fight the wws.  I see her as a possible wise aunt figure when spring comes

 

I dunno. Sansa seems to be quite the little player as the story moves forward. I think we have to define what it means to be important, though. Important mythically (like being a prophisized savior? No probably not). But being, maybe, the Wardeness of the North and serving her half-brother, the King? That may happen.

[Drogonthedread]

 
I would agree except that I have no idea how Dany would come to learn of the White Walkers before she lands at Westeros. Even Tyrion knows nothing about them. Unless Quaithe starts being helpful (not bloody likely) or she gets a very clear drams of them, then the WWs are going to be a surprise to Dany as well. But I'd agree that once she learns of them, she'll head north to defend Westeros (the world) from the WWs.
 
 
WRT the Dothraki I agree that they might be less than super effective against the WW's but I'd also say the vast majority of Westeros is going to be pretty gosh dark ineffective against these things. Thus far, Sam in a desperate attempt to save Gilly have staved off one of these WWs.
 
 
I dunno. Sansa seems to be quite the little player as the story moves forward. I think we have to define what it means to be important, though. Important mythically (like being a prophisized savior? No probably not). But being, maybe, the Wardeness of the North and serving her half-brother, the King? That may happen.

You are forgetting MARWYN who is on his way to dany

[BearQueen87]

You are forgetting MARWYN who is on his way to dany

 

Yup I sure am. Thanks. Though, I do wonder (and we've wondered before in this and our Dany re-read) how much heed she's going to give him.

[Drogonthedread]

02
Yup I sure am. Thanks. Though, I do wonder (and we've wondered before in this and our Dany re-read) how much heed she's going to give him.

Well i do wonder that but dany always listens what people have to say for their actions be it mirri .,jorah , barristan and brown ben plumm ..
i think the mentioning of aemon and his last wishes will keep her interested

And george simply has to make the reveal about what maesters were doing against the targs and what happened at summerhall and dany learning about others and all
so i expect marwyn is our only chance to know these things and expect george to tie all this ends perfectly and not leave them loose

[BearQueen87]

Well i do wonder that but dany always listens what people have to say for their actions be it mirri .,jorah , barristan and brown ben plumm ..
i think the mentioning of aemon and his last wishes will keep her interested
 

 

Oh, Dany listens to people, to be sure. But listening  = / = heeding their advice. Take Jorah. He told Dany not to take Meereen. To leave it be. She didn't listen. Even when Vision! Jorah came to her on the Dothraki Sea and reminded her of the real Jorah's advice to leave Meereen, Dany defended her own actions of taking Meereen in order to feed her people, she was a young girl, ect ect ect. I think Dany is going to leery of anyone who comes to claim her as a Savior--TSTMTW, AAR, the P(rincess)TWP, ect. She's been burnt (pun intended) by magic and prophecy before. Marwyn might be coming and tell her "look there are these walkers and they are coming for Westeros and your great great great great...something...died thinking that you're the promised princess and the one to save us all!" But will Dany heed that? I dunno. I don't fault her if she's doesn't. God knows that none of the other lords in Westeros are listening, except Stannis.

 

What is it that Parwan always says? Daenerys Targaryen fits in. And she might "fit in" with regards to the White Walkers as well; ignoring that situation until it's at her front door (past the Wall) and she has to go north instead of focusing on her power. Now to her credit, I do think that Dany will go North immediately when all hell breaks loose. She's not gonna sit around and think about it.

 

 

And george simply has to make the reveal about what maesters were doing against the targs and what happened at summerhall and dany learning about others and all
so i expect marwyn is our only chance to know these things and expect george to tie all this ends perfectly and not leave them loose

 

I agree GRRM needs to reveal all that. But Dany isn't the only vessel by which to do that. Sam is in Oldtown and with the maesters with express intent of learning about the WWs and the coming winter--something that I think ties back into Summerhall. I fully believe that Sam (and us) will be treated to a hell of a lot of exposition either through lessons at Oldtown or in books. So, I agree it has to be brought up and talked about but Dany isn't the only way to do it.

[Drogonthedread]

BearQueen

i get what you are saying now and totally agree that dany will be having doubts and may not believe him if he comes proclaiming her as saviour but he can tell her about the coming invasion of others and how she can be helpfull fighting against them and this alone will make dany want to go to westeros
which is what we were disucussing how she may learn about others before reaching westeros

another thing is marwyn himself doesnt believe in prophecy so i dont expect him to be like moqqoro who will claim her as azor ahai reborn ..but once dany knows about others she may put all the pieces into place from tptwp she hears in the undying and all and think this is what her destiny may be and sadly for her she will never find her house with red door

i agree sam will give us more insight into unknowns of the others and maesters but i feel that what happened at summerhall and to the drgons and targs before her (i suspect maesters had something to do with wierd behaviour of some targs) are meant to be reaveled for dany alone because its her family history

finally ,i hope am not derailing this awesome thread or making it as a general thread ..while i do not contribute much to this rereads i love reading everyone's post and am still having lot of catching up to do ..
keep up the good work guys and you guys are doing an awesome job

[SeanF]

Following up on the idea that Dany is a rescuer, it is clear to me that as soon as she learns of the wws and the threat they present, she will be committed to crossing the narrow sea with or without Dothraki. 
 
I'm not sure how useful Dothraki will be against WWs. They seem to fear magic in all its forms. Facing an army of the undead who need to be burned or hacked to tiny pieces does not seem to be something they would embrace. They aren't going to be comfortable with Valarian steel even if it could be found. Perhaps something fashioned out of obsidian would appeal to them.
 
This means that either they get left behind or they are pretty ineffective once they get to Westeros. I just don't see them being huge heroes in the main battles, but like all of us, I could be totally wrong.
 
I, too, believe Dany was pregnant and had a miscarriage. In fact, I never believed she was barren. So one possible ending is Dany and Jon on the throne with heirs.
 
If I had to guess, I would think Viserys would have used Drogo to gain his throne and then reclaimed his sister as consort. He would have failed, of course, but I think he would have wanted a pure Targarean as his heir. He probably would have had her killed or locked up after he got an heir and a spare on her. All moot, of course.
 
If Jon stays dead and Dany wins the throne and is fertile, who will she choose to marry? Who will be left???
Rickon? 
 
Not Tyrion no matter what his heritage, and for the record, he is clearly Tywin's son in my mind. His aunt pointing that out only served to reinforce what I think is obvious. 
 
Will Dany think a Stark child a good compromise as an heir? Arya paired with someone?
 
If Gendry winds up forging Valarian steel into hundreds of swords, will he be redeemed as a possible partner for Ayra and an heir to the throne if Dany is barren?
 
I don't buy the idea that Sansa will have much to do except pick up the pieces. She may make a key decision at some point that helps her brothers and even Dany fight the wws.  I see her as a possible wise aunt figure when spring comes.

I don't think Viserys would ever have killed Dany. But, her life as his wife or concubine would have been awful.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think Viserys would ever have killed Dany. But, her life as his wife or concubine would have been awful.

 

Had Dany ever been forced to marry (or be the concubine of) Viserys, her story would probably look a lot like her mother's, Queen Rhaella.

[Kyoshi]

Running a bit late with the next essay. Sorry about that. Will post it as soon as I can. Again, sorry.

[MoIaF]

Bear Queen/MOIAF How sad must that be? Not just to think you're the last of your kind, but the last of your kind that there will ever be. The Targaryens are like a family tree in reverse, with their numbers being whittled down to just one person who's hunted by assassins, and who thinks she's barren. She's like The Last of the Giants.

 

It's terribly sad and lonely for her. As BearQueen mentioned that's part of her need to save others, it is also why family and heritage is so very important to her. You have to consider that Dany has lost her family twice over. First, when she was born she lost all but her brother, then in the Dothraki sea she lost her brother, her husband and her child. The fact that the pain and suffering didn't paralyze her is a miracle.

 

At the beginning of the series heritage wasn't as important to Dany because she didn't feel a connection to it but as the series has continued and she's found herself the last member of her family she has embraced her heritage and wants to both live up to it and "enhance". If she is going to be the last of her family she's going to uphold the family name and honor. This of course is also tied in with her need to protect others as she was not protected. So, in a way she's trying to live up to her family name but also trying to do better than them. 

 

It's a lot of pressure for a young girl, and it's sad because she has very few people to depend on.

[MoIaF]

 

I touch on the fairy tale aspect in the next essay. I also expand the beauty and the beast motif.

 

And it's for both characters in a way. Sansa definitely has the Beauty and the Beast motif going with Sandor, but Dany has the Bear and the Maiden Fair motif going with Jorah.

[BearQueen87]

 

And it's for both characters in a way. Sansa definitely has the Beauty and the Beast motif going with Sandor, but Dany has the Bear and the Maiden Fair motif going with Jorah.

 

*cackles* YAAAAAAASS. Come to the Dark Side!!! ;)

 

Looking forward to the next essay Kyoshi, whenever you can. I know real life can be annoying.

[Kyoshi]

The Last Dragon and the Red Wolf

The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark

 

 

ESSAY II: THE PRINCESS AND THE QUEEN

 

 

1. ONCE UPON A TIME

This is the second of three essays analysing the parallel journeys of Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark.

 

1.1. Beauty and the Beast

 

Knightly valour is an important concept in Westerosi culture and for different reasons, it is important to Dany and Sansa. Sansa seems more attracted to its pageantry and revelry, which is often displayed in tourneys, and the romantic side, which is often celebrated in songs. Daenerys seems more interested in the legitimacy it can lend her. That is, in having a Queensguard of her own, completely comprised of anointed knights, however limited their number may be, brings her one step closer to Westerosi culture and the legacy of her forbearers.

 

When Catelyn asks him how he could still consider himself a knight, after forsaking every vow he ever swore, Ser Jaime Lannister responds with the following: So many vows…they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.

 

After Joffrey orders the knights of the Kingsguard to beat her, Sansa notes that knights are sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right. None of them did a thing. Only Ser Dontos had tried to help, and he was no longer a knight, no more than the Imp was, nor the Hound [who had previously saved her from an angry mob]… The Hound hated knights…I hate them too, Sansa thought. They are no true knights, not one of them.

 

The last sentence of the second quote somewhat resolves Ser Jaime’s conflict by distinguishing between knights and true knights. However, it is still the case that there is some exclusive standard by which decency is measured. This is echoed by Daenerys’s own thoughts: [She] sometimes found herself wishing her father had been protected by such men [bloodriders]. In the songs, the white knights of the Kingsguard were ever noble, valiant, and true, and yet King Aerys had been murdered by one of them, the handsome boy they now called the Kingslayer, and a second, Ser Barristan the Bold, had gone over to the Usurper.

 

Furthermore, Daenerys later becomes unsettled by Ser Jorah Mormont’s infatuation with her because he is a member of her Queensguard. According to her, his infatuation must be a violation of some knightly code since he should only love her as a knight loves his queen, not as a man loves a woman.

 

In each case, the foundation of what Dany and Sansa imagine to be a true knight is challenged. Having previously believed that virtues such as basic human decency were naturally encased in outwardly beautiful people, in knights and other formally recognised “heroes”, Sansa later finds herself with the “beasts” in her life as her protectors—the horribly maimed Hound, the famously ugly Imp and the relegated, ever-drunk Ser Dontos. Of these men, the Hound both protects and influences Sansa the most. And as time progresses, the nature of their relationship becomes somewhat romantic, depending on how one interprets their interactions.

 

Dany’s own “beasts” are numerous. But first and most prominent is Ser Jorah Mormont. He is a man with a blunt honest face. [He] was big and burly, strong of jaw and thick of shoulder. Not a handsome man by any means, but as true a friend as Dany had ever known. He is also a man of questionable morals, someone who will probably never be mistaken for a true knight.

 

Beyond their homely faces, Ser Jorah and Sandor possess other qualities more admirable. Firstly, both men are more honest with Dany and Sansa than most people. And I think both have experienced some of their more vulnerable moments with Dany and Sansa. From what the books convey, Sandor tells the event of his burning only once, to Sansa. Ser Jorah confesses the crimes that brought him to Essos to Daenerys.

 

Where the parallel of knights diverges most noticeably is in the way each approaches the notion of armour. Dany’s approach is more practical: A coppersmith had fashioned her a suit of burnished rings to wear to war. She accepted it with fulsome thanks; it was lovely to behold, and all that burnished copper would flash prettily in the sun, though if actual battle threatened, she would sooner be clad in steel. Even a young girl who knew nothing of the ways of war knew that.

 

Sansa takes a more fashionable approach to the matter: Ser Lothor, she had to remind herself; the man had been knighted for his valour in the Battle of the Blackwater. Though no proper knight would wear those patched brown breeches and scuffed boots, nor that cracked and waterstained leather jerkin.

 

1.2. The Frog Prince

 

One of Daenerys’s wedding gifts is a children’s story book, given to her by Ser Jorah. In Dany’s perspective, the stories are too simple and fanciful to be true history. All the heroes were tall and handsome, and you could tell the traitors by their shifty eyes.

 

The people in Daenerys and Sansa’s respective lives, however, are often too complex to easily place on the spectrum of villainous to heroic. Sometimes it is even more difficult to place Dany and Sansa on the spectrum of virtuous to immoral. Very rarely are people that simple. Furthermore, the apparent fairy tales that present themselves in Dany and Sansa’s lives are quite literal sometimes, very subtle at other times, and sometimes imagined or wished for (by them). And whether these fairy tales come in the form of parables—with a specific lesson to teach, is something we can only speculate at this point.

 

Given Sansa’s reverence for songs and their legends, it is easier to assume that she is the more naïve of the two—that her philosophies should more closely resemble the simplicity presented in the songs. And perhaps it becomes easier to identify the fairy tale enactments in her life, as opposed to Dany’s.

 

Some Westerosi legends require the suspension of nearly all critical thought in order to be plausible, such as Sansa’s favourite tale—that of Florian and Jonquil. In it, a poor knight who is also a fool, and apparently quite accomplished at both, spies a maid named Florian while she bathes with her sisters. The fool-knight and the maid become acquainted and what happens next is alluded to as being both romantic and sad, much like the tale of the Dragonknight and his sister Naerys. It seems that for some reason great love affairs cannot exist without ending in some monumentally tragic way, which surprisingly makes it all the more dreamy for Sansa.

 

The sad thing is that her favourite tale comes to life after her father’s death and her subsequent imprisonment in King’s Landing. She longs to go home and finds a note that instructs her to visit the godswoods in order to fulfil this dream. Once there, she meets Ser Dontos—a former knight who is now a fool. He declares himself as her Florian and promises to save her. Out of desperation, Sansa decides to trust Ser Dontos because the possibility exists he is the answer to her prayers, a true knight sent to save her. Ser Dontos surprisingly fulfils his promise of stealing her away from the Lannisters, yet unsurprisingly, to his own peril. His death fulfils the grand tragedy alluded to in Sansa’s song, thus completing the parallel.

 

From the beginning, Sansa’s life is supposed to be a song and nothing would please her more. On one occasion she voices her earnest belief that after shooting a white hart with a golden arrow, Joffrey will bring it back to her as a gesture of his infatuation. But on the other, she fully acknowledges that in the songs, the knights never killed magical beasts, they just went up to them and touched them and did them no harm, but she knew Joffrey liked hunting, especially the killing part.

 

Note that the above is a fantasy she passed on to her friend as a dream because everyone knew that dreams were prophetic. This becomes particularly poignant with the following in mind (which happens after Robert’s death): That night Sansa dreamt of Joffrey on the throne, with herself seated beside him in a gown of woven gold. She had a crown on her head, and everyone she had ever known came before her, to bend the knee and say their courtesies. That is, before the fulfilment of Florian and Jonquil’s tale, in a perfect world, fairy tales and dreams come to life.

 

Continuing with the theme I have adopted in these essays—that of our protagonists rejecting certain roles and accepting others (in both themselves and those around them), in this case Sansa both accepts and rejects the foundation of her prevalent philosophies. She recognises Jofrrey as a killer yet immediately follows it with the following: But only animals, though. Sansa was certain her prince had no part in murdering Jory and those other poor men; that had been his wicked uncle, the Kingslayer. She knew her father was still angry about that, but it wasn’t fair to blame Joff.

 

Joffrey’s inclination for killing (even the magical creatures that knights never killed) is immediately made romantic by gifting the carcass to her. She further distances him from the questionable nature of the act by comparing it to far worse crimes. Hence easily assigning the role of “villain” to an already established villain—the Kingslayer. Yet still, the rules of Sansa’s fantasies are still very complex even within the overall simplicity of it all.

 

In a different fantasy, her friend Jeyne expresses hope to marry Lord Beric Dondarrion. At this, Sansa only expresses pity because Jeyne is only a steward’s daughter and the notion of marrying a lord is a rather silly one on Jeyne’s part. In Sansa’s own thoughts: Lord Beric would never look at someone so far beneath him. This contradicts the foundation of her beliefs because if not, then in a world where the rules of fairy tales are definitive, such as the one in which a fool can also be a legendary knight, the stuff of Jeyne and Beric would be the stuff of legends.

 

The most obvious encounter Daenerys has with a fairy tale enactment is when Quentyn reaches her. He is known as Frog, but later reveals himself to be a prince and proposes marriage to her. In Dany’s words: “They call him frog,” she said, “and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children’s tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love.” Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. “Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?”

 

Quentyn’s enchantment comes in the form of Dorne as an ally and thousands of spears joined to her army. But when cut to the core, Quentyn’s enchantment is as simple as Ser Dontos’s promise to Sansa—the attainment of home. However, unlike Sansa, Dany does not wish to leave her prison at present. So unlike Sansa, she declines Quentyn’s offer, thus rejecting the enactment of the fairy tale. All of that doesn’t make a difference since the tale still ends similarly to Sansa’s case—the man who would save a damsel dies a death none may ever sing about.

 

In a different scenario, like Sansa, Dany wishes to embrace a fairy tale. This happens while she is making her way to her own wedding. She looks about for Daario and thinks to herself: If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. But as we know, this was another tragedy, as explained by Ser Barristan:

 

          Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Emphasising the point of tragic great affairs, Ser Barristan further reflects: Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses.

 

I will now heavily borrow a second, more subtle enactment from Patrick Stormborn. Patrick once theorised Daenerys as something akin to Cinderella in the following way: When she runs into Daznak’s Pit to save Drogo, she loses one of her slippers, just as Cinderella did at the end of the ball. In her absence, several people attempt to fill her shoes, with Hizdhar zo Loraq and Ser Barristan Selmy being the most prominent.

 

2. EVER AFTER

 

In the scope of this essay, Dany and Sansa have specific dreams they want fulfilled. Sansa’s greatest wish is to marry her lovely Prince Joffrey. This later evolves into returning to Winterfell. Dany’s is to claim the iron throne for her brother and son, and later, for herself. Given how different their initial goals are, they naturally approach them with different strategies. Sansa initially seems to expect the fantasy of her world to simply maintain itself. Dany convinces her husband to help her in her quest. But things don’t go according to plan in either case, and an especially traumatic experience shakes each girl out of the simplicity with which she had initially approached her dream. With Sansa it happens with the chaos that follows King Robert’s death:

 

          Even within the stout walls of Maegor’s Holdfast, with her door closed and barred, it was hard not to be terrified when the killing began. She had grown up to the sound of steel in the yard, and scarcely a day of her life had passed without hearing the clash of sword on sword, yet somehow knowing that the fighting was real made all the difference in the world. She heard it as she had never heard it before, and there were other sounds as well, grunts of pain, angry curses, shouts for help, and the moans of wounded and dying men. In the songs, the knights never screamed nor begged for mercy.

 

With Dany it happens while her husband and his entourage sack, rape and ultimately enslave the Lazhareen: Slaves, Dany thought. Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver’s Bay. She wanted to cry, but she told herself that she must be strong. This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne.

 

The quoted incident [in Sansa's case] leads to Sansa learning that her prince was a frog. She also realises that she has been surrounded by enemies all along. In a way, the wool is clawed from her eyes and she realises she has been a princess trapped in a tower. She is robbed of everything, even her faith in heroes. She is left without any power or form of influence. And her fantasies, while still naïve at the core, adopt an overall darker tone: If she flung herself from the window [of a tower room in Maegor’s Holdfast], she could put an end to her suffering, and in the years to come the singers would write songs of her grief.

 

One of the few good things to come from her ordeal is that she becomes more observant. Two incidents stand out in support of this. The first: The Redwyne twins were the queen’s unwilling guests, even as Sansa was. She wondered whose notion it had been for them to ride in Joffrey’s tourney. Not their own, she thought. In her earlier chapters of A Game of Thrones, she would have most likely lamented the sorry state of their armour (if it were anything but splendid) or praised it (if it were). Secondly, after the Battle of Blackwater, she is aware that the honours the people in Joffrey’s court bestow upon one another are mostly pretentious, there is nothing truly gallant (or even song-worthy) about them. Such incidents include her observation that Tywin was likely offered the office of Hand of the King well before the spectacle that was presented at court.

 

As already mentioned, Daenerys deals with her moment of epiphany differently. Unlike Sansa, and although limited, Dany has some influence over her surroundings. After initially turning away, she remembers was terror felt like and eventually commands the Dothraki to stop raping the women, and later, she commences the abolition of slavery in the Free Cities.

 

Finally, to complete the parallel of their grim, fairy tale-inclined arcs (up to this point at least) Daenerys and Sansa were both unintentionally instrumental in killing the original “prince” intended for each of them. Littlefinger uses Sansa to smuggle the poison that kills Joffrey to his own wedding, while Mirri Maz Duur uses Dany’s trust to poison Drogo.

[Kyoshi]

Decided to keep it short. Hope no one is colour blind. Enjoy the discussion. :)

PS: Bear Queen, this was for you. :)

[BearQueen87]

Decided to keep it short. Hope no one is colour blind. Enjoy the discussion. :)

PS: Bear Queen, this was for you. :)

 

:) *claps hands gleefully*

 

I'll have a lot to say (obvs) and it's been so long since I sat down and did a proper Dany/Jorah write up. I look forward to reading your post and responding in kind (hopefully tomorrow)

[BearQueen87]

 

The Last Dragon and the Red Wolf

The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark

 

 

ESSAY II: THE PRINCESS AND THE QUEEN

 

 

1. ONCE UPON A TIME

This is the second of three essays analysing the parallel journeys of Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark.

 

 

 

Excellent write up Kyoshi!

 

 

Daenerys seems more interested in the legitimacy it can lend her. That is, in having a Queensguard of her own, completely comprised of anointed knights, however limited their number may be, brings her one step closer to Westerosi culture and the legacy of her forbearers.

 

This is a really nice point. Throughout all of AGOT Dany accepts that Jorah is her protector and confidant but she never goes so far as to name him her Queensguard, even though Viserys has died and she herself is trying to convince Drogo to take her home to Westeros and reclaim the Iron Throne. It is only in the last and final chapter of AGOT, after she has really accepted that she is the Last Dragon and last Targaryen, when she begins to assume those traditions that the Targaryens started, like the KG. That is when she named Jorah the first of her QG.

 

Then afterwards she adopts others as part of her QG. And in true Dany fashion, she chooses men that others might not choose to serve as her most valient of knights. Jorah is an exile and rather uncouth; Whitebeard is old and later she discovers that he is really Selmy, someone who switched sides when the Targaryens lost the Throne.

 

 

After Joffrey orders the knights of the Kingsguard to beat her, Sansa notes that knights are sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right. None of them did a thing. Only Ser Dontos had tried to help, and he was no longer a knight, no more than the Imp was, nor the Hound [who had previously saved her from an angry mob]… The Hound hated knights…I hate them too, Sansa thought. They are no true knights, not one of them.

 

The idea that knights are supposed to do X and end up doing Y is something that Dany discovers in book one as well. Jorah is a knight (something that is passing strange since he's a northman) but not one that follows any sort of code. Jorah protects and defends Dany, at first, largely because he was ordered to and was promised his lands and title back--not exactly a noble cause but rather a highly selfish one. This desire for Bear Island is of course later supplanted by the fact that Jorah is falling in love with Dany, again a selfish desire and not one born out of noble intentions. Jorah doesn't exactly protect women either. He doesn't partake in the rape of the Lamb Women with the Dothraki, but he doesn't try to stop it either. He understands that it's "part of war" and even tells Dany as much (and will again later with his famous "there's a beast inside everyman" speech). He only goes to stop the rape after Dany has ordered him to do so, something he finds both strange and admirable. Jorah certainly doesn't fight for the right but again for his own selfish desires, be it Bear Island and his titles or to prove his love for Dany. I've maintained for a long time now that Jorah and Dany are the courtly love trope carefully subverted. It's the knight and his queen humanized in which the knight isn't content just to live and die by the side of a monogamous queen, but rather his own selfish desires play a huge role in their story. Instead of it being a pure love that does not need any kind of sexual component, it becomes highly sexualized because Jorah does desire Dany as a woman. 

 

 

[She] sometimes found herself wishing her father had been protected by such men [bloodriders]. In the songs, the white knights of the Kingsguard were ever noble, valiant, and true, and yet King Aerys had been murdered by one of them, the handsome boy they now called the Kingslayer, and a second, Ser Barristan the Bold, had gone over to the Usurper.

 

WRT those list of qualities, it's almost everything Jorah Mormont is not. He's not noble nor valiant. The one item that I would ascribe to him is "true" but it's not in the traditional knightly sense. It's not that Jorah is true to any sort of knightly code, but he is true to Dany, be it Dany the Queen or Dany the Woman. I'm not sure if it's the kind of "true" Dany can ever fully accept since it does come with the attached string that Jorah is in love with her and isn't likely to fall out of love with her anytime soon, but no matter his faults, he is *true* to her.

 

 

Furthermore, Daenerys later becomes unsettled by Ser Jorah Mormont’s infatuation with her because he is a member of her Queensguard. According to her, his infatuation must be a violation of some knightly code since he should only love her as a knight loves his queen, not as a man loves a woman.

 

Knights are supposed to love their Queens; it's part of the songs (and in Westeros, look no farther than the Dragonknight and Queen Naerys). What knights are not supposed to do is act on that love they have for their queens. It's a line that isn't supposed to be crossed; the love is supposed to be pure but restrained--at least until the end when one stage laid about by Barbara Tuchman is secret consummation, though I believe that a lot of courtly love stories end up skipping that, or if they don't skip it...something bad happens because of the consummation. 

 

 

Dany’s own “beasts” are numerous. But first and most prominent is Ser Jorah Mormont. He is a man with a blunt honest face. [He] was big and burly, strong of jaw and thick of shoulder. Not a handsome man by any means, but as true a friend as Dany had ever known. He is also a man of questionable morals, someone who will probably never be mistaken for a true knight.

 

 

Y'know for a woman who claims she has no romantic feelings toward Jorah, Dany spends an inordinate amount of time describing what he looks like. (#JustSaying)

 

No, but your point has a lot of merit. Knights and their ladies fair are supposed to look a certain way. Outer beauty is meant to convey inner beauty--something GRRM just takes and tosses out the bloody window. Look at Brienne, homely, plain, mockingly called "The Beauty" but probably the only true knight in Westeros. The Hound is scarred and course and sort of "punk rock" but he would refuse to hit Sansa if ordered and he'll save her from the mobs. Jorah is supposed to be "ugly." He's a giant hulking man, a bear in human skin, but he's also, at the very least, Dany's best friend.

 

 

And I think both have experienced some of their more vulnerable moments with Dany and Sansa.

 

*sigh* yes. Jorah has a reputation as being a pragmatic realist, and he is--he certainly is. But he has this rash streak of romanticism that comes out at odd times. There are times when the man is almost a poet! Like when he's begging Dany not to walk into the fire in her final POV; or when he's asking her to come away with him (Come east with me. Yi Ti, Qarth, the Jade Sea, Asshai by the Shadow. We will see all the wonders yet unseen, and drink what wines the gods see fit to serve us. Please, Khaleesi. I know what you intend. Do not. Do not.")or when he described what Bear Island is like or when he vows that no man will ever be so true to Dany as he is. His actions also show that underneath that rough and pragmatic layer, he's a sap. He could have fled, he could have gone home, back to Bear Island and probably no one would have cared. The Lady of Bear Island is off at war and the IT/KL couldn't care less if some former exile takes up residence back in some far off little insignificant island. His heartbreak and lovesickness are part of the courtly love stage "Moans of approaching death from unsatisfied desire."

 

 

Where the parallel of knights diverges most noticeably is in the way each approaches the notion of armour. Dany’s approach is more practical: A coppersmith had fashioned her a suit of burnished rings to wear to war. She accepted it with fulsome thanks; it was lovely to behold, and all that burnished copper would flash prettily in the sun, though if actual battle threatened, she would sooner be clad in steel. Even a young girl who knew nothing of the ways of war knew that.

 

Jorah is the same way. He puts on his knightly attire when with the Dothraki and they make fun of him. He cuts down one of the taunters and after that, no more japes pass by him. Jorah may dress the part of a Dothraki while traveling (same as Dany, they share that in common...being able to adapt to their foreign surroundings) but when it comes to battle, they'd both sooner be clad in steel.

 

 

The fool-knight and the maid become acquainted and what happens next is alluded to as being both romantic and sad, much like the tale of the Dragonknight and his sister Naerys. It seems that for some reason great love affairs cannot exist without ending in some monumentally tragic way, which surprisingly makes it all the more dreamy for Sansa.

 

Yes there seems to be some idea that the more tragic the tale, the more romantic it is. I fear for Sansa/Sandor, Dany/Jorah and even Brienne/Jaime should GRRM take that stance as well. Though, I've begun to suspect that GRRM is going to take his love of Beauty and the Beast and cut it off at the knees WRT at least two of those couples. Sansa and Sandor reunite, probably during some sort of rescue attempt to get Sansa the heck away from Littlefinger, and I can see Sandor dying in Sansa's arms without the true love resurrection we associate with B and the B. With Dany and Jorah, I think that at some point Dany is going to realize that she does have deep feelings for Jorah (perhaps bordering on the romantic but at the very least realizing that she wants Jorah Mormont in her life in whatever capacity) but GRRM will cut that story off at the knees by subverting the final courtly love stage of "more adventures together" and having Jorah and Dany go their separate ways, more than likely than not because one of them died. Jorah seems destined to die for Dany, he keeps promising her that he will do that should it be required. The lesson for Dany then becomes that she doesn't really ever get to have th life she envisioned--she might be Queen but is it a shared throne with Jon if she even gets to be Queen at the series end? she might be the Mother of Dragons, but I'm going to bet that all three of those dragons are dead by series end. She might realize that she needs Jorah with her but he dies in her defense leaving her alone once more, like in Meereen. (sigh) (BQ gets sad)

 

 

The most obvious encounter Daenerys has with a fairy tale enactment is when Quentyn reaches her. He is known as Frog, but later reveals himself to be a prince and proposes marriage to her. In Dany’s words: “They call him frog,” she said, “and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children’s tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love.” Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. “Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?”

 

Quentyn’s enchantment comes in the form of Dorne as an ally and thousands of spears joined to her army. But when cut to the core, Quentyn’s enchantment is as simple as Ser Dontos’s promise to Sansa—the attainment of home. However, unlike Sansa, Dany does not wish to leave her prison at present. So unlike Sansa, she declines Quentyn’s offer, thus rejecting the enactment of the fairy tale. All of that doesn’t make a difference since the tale still ends similarly to Sansa’s case—the man who would save a damsel dies a death none may ever sing about.

 

I also think it's important to point out that in the traditional fairy tale of the Princess and the Frog, the Frog who is really a prince ends up being just as swoon worthy as a Prince should be. Quentyn is...not.

 

Really nice job overall Kyoshi! Just a few more notes here about Sandor/Sansa and Jorah/Dany and the fairy tale courtly love aspect of it all.

 

Both are playing with certain stages in the courtly love trope but GRRM, as he is wont to do, subverts or dirties them up so that it's more human, more realistic.

 

Stage One: Attraction to the lady, usually via eyes/glance

 

1. Apparently Sandor had an attraction to Sansa Stark from the get-go. Sansa, on the other hand, is rather horrified at his burned face and his rough mannerisms. It's the Beauty and the Beast set up.

 

2. Jorah we're less sure of, but it isn't lust at first nor love. It's a job to get him to Bear Island. He'll sell her secrets because it serves him. Now Dany, on the other hand, finds herself fascinated with Jorah the first time she spies him across the hall, not because he's handsome or the man of her dreams, but because he represents a home she never knew. "Dany found herself looking at the knight curiously. He was an older man, past forty and balding, but still strong and fit. Instead of silks and cottons, he wore wool and leather. His tunic was a dark green, embroidered with the likeness of a black bear standing on two legs." There is no love at first sight for either of them. In fact, GRRM deliberately goes out of his way to pass over Jorah and Dany's first real meeting. We just know that he becomes the Targaryen's constant companion and attends the wedding of Dany and Drogo. Their first real interaction is Jorah giving Dany the books.

 

Stage Two: Worship of the lady from afar

 

1. Sandor does this. I don't think anyone doubts that. But their own one on one interactions are not the stuff of song. In some cases, they are almost scary.

 

2. Again, with Jorah it's really hard to pin it all down. I'm still not 100% sure when he began to fall in love--and I think once it started it was a very rapid descent into being in love with her. If I had to guess I'd say it was the night Viserys died and she refused to look away. The Mormonts seem to take a lot of pride in strong women who do not act like damsels in distress--their woman-warrior on their door frame for instance. But it's not worshiping her from afar; his feelings slowly begin to become more and more manifest and even Dany starts to notice the way he eyes her in Qarth and it all culminates with the most unchaste, most unknigtly of kisses aboard the ship in aSoS.

 

Stage Three: Declaration of passionate devotion

 

1. I'm not a Sandor/Sasna person so please correct me if I'm wrong, but this never happens, right? Sandor never declares himself to be in love with Sansa. He clearly is because his actions speak louder than words, but he never vocalizes it, right?

 

2. There are a few including what Jorah says to Dany the night of the pyre and the speech after the kiss, obviously.

 

Stage Four: Virtuous rejection by the lady

 

1. I don't think Sansa ever really rejects Sandor. She keeps wrapping herself in his cloak which has a lot of marriage connotations. There's a sexual element later in AFFC where she misremembers their encounters so it's not exactly a virtuous rejection in which the lady fair turns down her suitor because she must keep herself pure or something.

 

2. Dany rejects Jorah but it's not because she has a virginal image to maintain or because she's married and she cannot commit so egregious a sin. She rejects him because she's a Queen and he thinks of her as a woman and in Dany's head this is considered "wrong" because that's not how it works in the stories. Moreover in the privacy of her own chambers, she masturbates following the kiss because it clearly does affect her sexually (a kiss that she thinks is sweet and gives back to him while it's happening). She also ponders if she should just marry Jorah and Daario both. In short: a rejection yes, but not of the virtuous kind.

 

Stage Five: Renewed wooing with oaths of virtue and eternal fealty

 

1. Hasn't happened for S and S?

 

2. I'd say this might count if we consider what Jorah has to say for himself in Dany's presence after his past lies have been flushed out. However, I'm more inclined to say that GRRM is saving this for Dany and Jorah's eventual reunion in Meereen.

 

Stage Six: Moans of approaching death from unsatisfied desire

 

1. The Hound is being reborn as Sandor, someone who I think will probably be a bit more knightly.

 

2. See ALL OF DANCE for Jorah.

 

Stage Seven: Heroic deeds of valor which win the lady's heart

 

1. I think GRRM might turn this on its head and given Sansa the chance to do the deeds of valor and Sandor just helps out or something.

 

2. The Battle for Meereen. The battle for the Iron Throne. Whether or not it wins Dany's heart, I don't know. But it will win her forgiveness and a chance to be by her side once more.

 

From there...who knows. Consummation seems inevitable for Sansa and Sandor. Dany and Jorah? I don't honestly know.