Renly and Dorne

[lyannaisalive]

Im rereading ACOK and am at the part of Renly talking with Cat. He says he will soon be joined by the full might of Dorne. I dont recall it ever being mentioned that they had a alliance, why does he think this... Am i missing something?

[TallTyrion]

He's either assuming that they will back him because he's the best looking candidate at the time. Or he's trying to portray his position as stronger than it actually is to Catelyn so she will relay that to Robb.

ETA

IIRC there's also a time when Renly says Stannis is going to join his strength to his host so he's not exactly being realistic.

[The Drunkard]

There was no alliance, it was just a boast. He intended to awe Catelyn with his strength to make Robb's surrender seem a better prospect than it otherwise would be.

In the same vein he overplays the strength of his bannermen, not mentioning that powerful houses like the Redwynes and Hightowers aren't backing him, nor that those "craven" storm lords mentioned by Davos and Stannis were waiting to see who came out on top. He also claims that Stannis will serve him, despite having already received Stannis' declaration (as well as... you know, knowing who Stannis is).

[Viserys - The last dragon]

He assumed. And its a normal assumption from his perspective. He knows that Doran/ House Martell hates the Lannisters. He is the best candidate to deliver some sort of "revenge".

[Fat Mac]

It was either a bluff, or Renly honestly thinking the Dornish would join him. The Dornish might have declared for him eventually, but it would be as artificial as them joining the Lannisters.

[Nyrhex]

He assumed. And its a normal assumption from his perspective. He knows that Doran/ House Martell hates the Lannisters. He is the best candidate to deliver some sort of "revenge".

...errrm...no it's not...

More than hating the Lannisters, which is only a thing in the current generation, the Martells hate the Tyrells for generations, and the Tyrell Queen, whose brother was lamed by a Martell, is not going to give any reason for the Dornish to side with Renly, rather the opposite. More than that, Renly also ignores Stannis' letter which he saw way back in Horn Hill, and despite Stannis declaring himself king, Renly still claims to Catelyn that Stannis would side with him. He only mentions the letter when Stannis lays siege to Storm's End.

Renly was trying to bullshit Catelyn, in order to get another card for his propaganda effort. It's not only that he has most of the Stormlands and the Reach, he also has the North and the Riverlands!

Renly also neglects to contact Dorne, since he assumes that he is so cool they would forget that his Tyrell Queen is the last thing they want, and he has no other card for an alliance. While he was trying to bullshit Cat that they would side with him, he neglects to mention that Stannis in actually aready in war with him, and the two Dornish hosts start to form in the mountain passes. A month after Renly's claim to Cat, the Dornish are already on the border with the Dornish Marches, as per the alliance with the Lannisters.

Renly was either a poor liar, or even more delusional than we think.

[The Witch King of Asshai]

It's just an empty boast, or a delusion. Throughout his interaction with Cat he makes several presumptions/boasts in regard to Stannis and the level of commitment of his bannermen and allies (cowardly stormlords, major houses like Redwyne not siding with him). He may have believed that as the strongest candidate at the time, the notoriously cautious and practical Doran would back him, and they did share a common enemy. I'm not sure how he expected Wyl and Fowler troops to fight with Marcher lords though.

[The Mad Dornishman]

He assumed. And its a normal assumption from his perspective. He knows that Doran/ House Martell hates the Lannisters. He is the best candidate to deliver some sort of "revenge".

I know the death of Renly and the ensuing chaos complicated things for Cat, but I still wonder why Robb never sent an envoy to Dorne. As you said, the Martells hate the Lannisters and don't accept the engagement of Mycella and Trystane unto later in ACOK. Robb sent envoys to Renly and Balon Greyjoy, and Cat tried to sway Lysa to their side. We all know Stannis would never join Robb, but why not at least try to ally with Dorne?

[The Gallows Knight]

Doran himself even said he was considering backing him, if only for a chance to strike at the Lannisters and help create discord in the realm, so it isn't unlikely that he had been sending Renly and Co some messages and trying to feel things out.

[Gibzit]

Geographicly it makes sense for Dorne to join Renly, kinda like the Vale with Robb.

[Nyrhex]

I know the death of Renly and the ensuing chaos complicated things for Cat, but I still wonder why Robb never sent an envoy to Dorne. As you said, the Martells hate the Lannisters and don't accept the engagement of Mycella and Trystane unto later in ACOK. Robb sent envoys to Renly and Balon Greyjoy, and Cat tried to sway Lysa to their side. We all know Stannis would never join Robb, but why not at least try to ally with Dorne?

Because Robb is trying to form an alliance with the huge army to Tywin's south, not the small army to Renly's south. Aside from that, Dorne is left for later books (notice how Cressen offers an alliance with Robb for giving up the North and Riverlands, the Vale for giving up Shireen and her inheritence to Robert Arryn, but not the very simple alliance between furtue queen Shireen and Trystane Martell in a matrilineal marriage). Other reason being that Robb is not thinking long term, and Catelyn is a poor envoy (choosing to flee with Brienne rather than work an alliance with Stannis or the Tyrells, which she later laments why Robb was too foolish not to for some reason).

[BaratheonBro]

Renly was just boasting, he suffered from some brutal delusion of grandeur. I have a hard time seeing Doran and Mace joining forces. Yes they are formally allies as we speak in the books but its a very vague alliance based on the Lannister power base which is crumbling. IIRC there was some deaths in Kings Landing when Oberyn and his guards was stationed there alongside the Reach men.

[The Mad Dornishman]

Because Robb is trying to form an alliance with the huge army to Tywin's south, not the small army to Renly's south. Aside from that, Dorne is left for later books (notice how Cressen offers an alliance with Robb for giving up the North and Riverlands, the Vale for giving up Shireen and her inheritence to Robert Arryn, but not the very simple alliance between furtue queen Shireen and Trystane Martell in a matrilineal marriage). Other reason being that Robb is not thinking long term, and Catelyn is a poor envoy (choosing to flee with Brienne rather than work an alliance with Stannis or the Tyrells, which she later laments why Robb was too foolish not to for some reason).

Valid point, I can understand Robb's preference to align with Renly's strength. However, not sending an enovoy to Doran Martell is a prime example of putting all your eggs in one basket. If I'm rebelling against the Iron Throne, I'd want to open ties with every lord I could, just in case.

[EastTymor]

Valid point, I can understand Robb's preference to align with Renly's strength. However, not sending an enovoy to Doran Martell is a prime example of putting all your eggs in one basket. If I'm rebelling against the Iron Throne, I'd want to open ties with every lord I could, just in case.

Sure, but what can Dorne do for you? They're really far away and would need to fight their way through either the Reach or the Stormlands before they could be of any use to Robb.

[Pod The Rod]

Because Robb is trying to form an alliance with the huge army to Tywin's south, not the small army to Renly's south. Aside from that, Dorne is left for later books (notice how Cressen offers an alliance with Robb for giving up the North and Riverlands, the Vale for giving up Shireen and her inheritence to Robert Arryn, but not the very simple alliance between furtue queen Shireen and Trystane Martell in a matrilineal marriage). Other reason being that Robb is not thinking long term, and Catelyn is a poor envoy (choosing to flee with Brienne rather than work an alliance with Stannis or the Tyrells, which she later laments why Robb was too foolish not to for some reason).

You cannot fairly blame Catelyn for running off with Brienne. It was that or get blamed for Renly's death.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Valid point, I can understand Robb's preference to align with Renly's strength. However, not sending an enovoy to Doran Martell is a prime example of putting all your eggs in one basket. If I'm rebelling against the Iron Throne, I'd want to open ties with every lord I could, just in case.

Agreed, I would've done the same. I wonder why Robb/Cat/Brynden didn't try harder to get some Vale lords on their side, despite Lysa's ban. And Edmure was still single, and I bet many lords would've liked to see their daughter as the Lady of Riverrun

[Nyrhex]

You cannot fairly blame Catelyn for running off with Brienne. It was that or get blamed for Renly's death.

Of course I can. All she had to do was stop in Bitterbridge with the news first, and arrange a marriage alliance between Marge and Edmure. The North and Riverlands are at this point on par with the Lannisters, in a far better situation, and Mace can be king in the south while Robb is king in the noth. She had a two week+ ride to and around Bitterbridge, she could not have come up with anything other than "welp, looks like Stannis has black magic and Robb only said deal with Renly, not with Mace"? Come on now.

[Gibzit]

Of course I can. All she had to do was stop in Bitterbridge with the news first, and arrange a marriage alliance between Marge and Edmure. The North and Riverlands are at this point on par with the Lannisters, in a far better situation, and Mace can be king in the south while Robb is king in the noth. She had a two week+ ride to and around Bitterbridge, she could not have come up with anything other than "welp, looks like Stannis has black magic and Robb only said deal with Renly, not with Mace"? Come on now.

Attempting to secure a marraige with a widow just a few days after her husband is dead when you are with one of the suspects for murdering him? I don't think that is going to work.

[Leonardo]

It's not a boast or bullshit, Renly just takes their support for granted. And why wouldn't Doran support Renly after it became clear he was going to win?

Tyrion says this exactly, that Renly has taken Dornish support for granted, and this is when he supposes to win them over by wedding Myrcella to Trystane.

[BaratheonBro]

It's not a boast or bullshit, Renly just takes their support for granted. And why wouldn't Doran support Renly after it became clear he was going to win?

Tyrion says this exactly, that Renly has taken Dornish support for granted, and this is when he supposes to win them over by wedding Myrcella to Trystane.

Because Dorne and Reach hate each other. As I said, its hard for me to see a steady alliance between the two. And how does Oberyn and the sand snakes view Renly? Renly was pretty much a child in RR but I don't think the Martells like him that much.