House Lannister of Winterfell?

[devilish]

Zero percent chance it would've worked. The Lannisters would never be accepted as the overlords to any region outside of the West.

It would only have worked if the Starks were restored as wardens of the north and Sansa publically protected Tyrion . Tyrion's decision to respect Sansa was smart. His father may have been reigning supreme in the South but that was of no help once Tyrion moved in the North with his wife.

The bannermen in the North are equally honorable as those in the Vale. I doubt that any of the banner men would strike Tyrion down against the Stark's girl will.

In my opinion Sansa should have considered this alliance more. Tyrion was the rightful heir of the Westerlands. She was the equivalent in the North and both were pissed off for the way they were treated. Tyrion was also one of the very few people with brains in Westeros and once his father died that would have prove a great asset to have. What she should have done was to sit tight, work with her husband to gain Tywin's trust to allow them to settle down in Winterfell and wait until the old man kicked the bucket. Once that was achieved Sansa could have amassed enough power either through diplomacy or war to fight for her husband's right and who knows get her own revenge.

[Mladen]

Point taken, but I am not debating about whether she wanted him or not. It is clear that she doesn't want him, but Sansa was more or less willing to do anything she was told at that point without fighting back. Tyrion is the one who decides to stop. Had Tyrion been married to Arya, he'd have probably been stabbed that night. Had Salsa married Tywin or Joffrey, she would have been raped.

I know that Medals of Honor are given to those who don't rape 12-year-old girls when it comes to Tyrion, but the victim blaming in this scenario surpasses all possible disgusting things I have ever read around here. Sansa didn't surrender, she resisted as much as she can. Up until the moment he refuses to rape her (and got Medal of Honor for that by some fans), she knew that all resistance is futile. She played dead body. Her body language was resistance of its own given how Tyrion knew that he will be having to rape her to consummate their marriage. Sansa slams the door of the possibility when she even tells him that she might never want him. Had Arya been in her place, she would have been beaten, just like Sansa was threatened and the result would be the same. The idea that Arya would single-handedly kill half the KL never stops to amaze me. Sansa resisted by making sure Tyrion will have to rape her. And that proved to be the right thing to do.

[RainGhost]

Even with the information Tywin had, it was never going to work. He was just demonstrating his arrogance and complete ignorance of the north. If ever for a second you imagine this working, just picture Tyrion attempting to give the Greatjon an order.

[devilish]

Even with the information Tywin had, it was never going to work. He was just demonstrating his arrogance and complete ignorance of the north. If ever for a second you imagine this working, just picture Tyrion attempting to give the Greatjon an order.

TBF the Lannisters had hostages coming from most of the bannermen in Westeros.

It would have only worked if Sansa loved her husband enough to protect him. Tyrion is smart enough to win everyone. He did that with the plebs in Kingslanding (the famous charge), he would do the same in the North. I doubt the Greatjon would hack Sansa beloved husband down, not after what the girl had passed through.

If the North men and Sansa were wise enough then they would have actually welcomed this deal

a- it would mean that the North would be back in Starks hands.

b- Tyrion is a good person and a great leader.

c- The North could exploit Tyrion's grievances of not getting the Westerlands (+ the countless times Cersei mistreated him) to start a rebellion. Since he cant care less who sits on the iron throne he could easily seal a deal with Stannis or Danny and get rid of his sister for good.

[Mladen]

TBF the Lannisters had hostages coming from most of the bannermen in Westeros.

It would have only worked if Sansa loved her husband enough to protect him. Tyrion is smart enough to win everyone. He did that with the plebs in Kingslanding (the famous charge), he would do the same in the North. I doubt the Greatjon would hack Sansa beloved husband down, not after what the girl had passed through.

If the North men and Sansa were wise enough then they would have actually welcomed this deal

a- it would mean that the North would be back in Starks hands.

b- Tyrion is a good person and a great leader.

c- The North could exploit Tyrion's grievances of not getting the Westerlands (+ the countless times Cersei mistreated him) to start a rebellion. Since he cant care less who sits on the iron throne he could easily seal a deal with Stannis or Danny and get rid of his sister for good.

I am sorry, but this is in total contrition with what we know. Tyrion never shown he was able to win everyone. That would be Sansa. People needed to fight and they fought. Tyrion was hated as soon as the Battle finished and the entire thing with paying tax on prostitutes began. Tyrion would have never, ever be loved by anyone, especially by those whom he occupied.

Plus, you forget that the moment Sansa gives birth to a child, she would be dead. Tywin wouldn't risk that someone makes her a widow and use her for their own schemes. Sansa was good to Lannisters only for procreation.

As for your points:

1. North would be in the hands of Lannisters, not Starks. Two different families.

2. Tyrion is a great politician, not great leader. And he is far from being pure as driven snow.

3. Oh, yes... Because people will consider so easily to talk with someone who basically came to power by raping 12-year-old girl.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1. North would be in the hands of Lannisters, not Starks. Two different families.

.

No, it would be in the hands of Starks with ties to the Lannisters. When Lysa was regent for her son no one considered that the Tullys were in charge of the Vale.

[Nihlus]

I think that Stannis makes it clear just how important it is to have a Stark in the North when he offers to legitimize Jon Snow and make him Lord Stark of Winterfell. BTW and something that I'm not sure about, if a rival King legitimizes a Bastard does the other side have to recognize it. We now have Ramsey Bolton (legitimized I believe by either Joffrey or Tommen) but is he a "Bolton" to Stannis?

Stannis still calls him Snow.

"Who is coming? Bolton?"

"Lord Ramsay," Theon hissed. "The son, not the father. You must not let him take him. Roose... Roose is safe within the walls of Winterfell with his fat new wife. Ramsay is coming."

"Ramsay Snow, you mean. The Bastard."

"Never call him that!" Spittle sprayed from Theon's lips. "Ramsay Bolton, not Ramsay Snow, never Snow, never, you have to remember his name, or he will hurt you."

"He is welcome to try. Whatever name he goes by."

[Mladen]

No, it would be in the hands of Starks with ties to the Lannisters. When Lysa was regent for her son no one considered that the Tullys were in charge of the Vale.

Lysa's son was Arryn in male line, not in female. Regardless that the child would have Stark blood via his mother, the child itself would be a Lannister. And with the dead mother, he would be grown up as a Lannister. Sansa is dead, make no mistake. She would have never lived after the birth of her child. Even Robb knew that.

[devilish]

I am sorry, but this is in total contrition with what we know. Tyrion never shown he was able to win everyone. That would be Sansa. People needed to fight and they fought. Tyrion was hated as soon as the Battle finished and the entire thing with paying tax on prostitutes began. Tyrion would have never, ever be loved by anyone, especially by those whom he occupied.

Plus, you forget that the moment Sansa gives birth to a child, she would be dead. Tywin wouldn't risk that someone makes her a widow and use her for their own schemes. Sansa was good to Lannisters only for procreation.

As for your points:

1. North would be in the hands of Lannisters, not Starks. Two different families.

2. Tyrion is a great politician, not great leader. And he is far from being pure as driven snow.

3. Oh, yes... Because people will consider so easily to talk with someone who basically came to power by raping 12-year-old girl.

He tend to win over reasonable and honorable people (not the mind fecked ones). The North is well stocked with these sort of people

I much doubt Tyrion would have allowed Sansa to be hurt. He liked the girl. I am more inclined to believe that he would have convinced his father to allow them to move to Winterfell to 'rule' in their stead, something Tywin would probably allow since there's no way this baby (and his nephew) would ever be able to rule the North without his mother backup. However he (Tyrion) would have never made that step unless he was 100% sure that Sansa was comfortable with the wedding and not ready to kill him because of it.

1. The North would be in the hands of Sansa Stark. Tywin would be stupid not to acknowledge it. The Child would be both Stark and Lannister (if you want I can upload you a video about genetics) and would also be the rightful heir of a military powerhouse + the richest land in the westeros.

2. Tyrion is a great strategist (the siege), talker (he convinces the hill tribes and Bronn to do his bidding) and administrator (master of coin, how he sorted the drainage system in Lannisport etc). He wont be the one wielding the sword and cutting people in half. However the North are not in short supply of those type of people

3. Who raped who? Tyrion was determined that he wont have sex with Sansa unless she wanted

Tyrion would never rule the North. It would either be his wife or his son (the latter would never do it without his mother's backup). Nevertheless I fancy his chances of united the North especially if that mean another occasion to settle the score against the despicable Tywin and co. The fact that their own son would have access to the rich Westerlands mines would also act as a sweetener.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Lysa's son was Arryn in male line, not in female. Regardless that the child would have Stark blood via his mother, the child itself would be a Lannister. And with the dead mother, he would be grown up as a Lannister. Sansa is dead, make no mistake. She would have never lived after the birth of her child. Even Robb knew that.

He would grow up as a Stark. It is heavily suggested that children take the name of the more powerful family or the name of lands they want to inherit.

• the world book Joffrey Lydden become Joffrey Lannister when married a Lannister and wanted her lands

Leobald Tallhart, married to a Hornwood, offers his son as the new Lord of Hornwood and mentions that he would change his name from Tallhart to Hornwood

Lady Wanywood is a Waynwood from birth yet she still rules her lands in her maiden name and her children are all Waynwoods

and obviously in Dorne were we have seen multiple Ladies marry and their offspring take their name rather than their husbands.

You dont get over a 100 families all retaining the same name from a 1,000 years ago if they didn't retain the family name. There would have been many, many females who inherited lands in the last 1,000 years.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Lysa's son was Arryn in male line, not in female. Regardless that the child would have Stark blood via his mother, the child itself would be a Lannister. And with the dead mother, he would be grown up as a Lannister. Sansa is dead, make no mistake. She would have never lived after the birth of her child. Even Robb knew that.

I disagree with this. Robb believed that, not as a result of any politically logical asumption but because he was inclined to assume the worst about Lannisters even if it didn't make sense.

Tywin was working under wrong, but actually quite logical to infer, premises. One of them was about Sansa's character, as the docile, meek and malleable child that everyone in KL thought she was. They wouldn't need to kill such a Sansa... on the contrary, a living Sansa, who has accepted her fate, would be an asset in Tywin's plans.

Moreover, they were supposed to go to Winterfell only after the prolongued war and winter have done their job in subduing the North and not before. The child would be Stark by blood and that would make him better than other options in comparaison. Remember what the northmen say of Roose, that they could accept him because they can make a deal with him... well, the same stands for Tywin.

In short, Tywin's plan suffers from the common disease many plans suffer in ASOIAF, that is, it's based on logical but completely wrong premises. And, corroborating to his thinking, there is historical precedence of such arrangements working. See the Baratheons in the Stormlands: I suppose a similar situation would be the ideal outcome from Lannister perspective.

[Mladen]

He tend to win over reasonable and honorable people (not the mind fecked ones). The North is well stocked with these sort of people

I much doubt Tyrion would have allowed Sansa to be hurt. He liked the girl. I am more inclined to believe that he would have convinced his father to allow them to move to Winterfell to 'rule' in their stead, something Tywin would probably allow since there's no way this baby (and his nephew) would ever be able to rule the North without his mother backup. However he (Tyrion) would have never made that step unless he was 100% sure that Sansa was comfortable with the wedding and not ready to kill him because of it.

1. The North would be in the hands of Sansa Stark. Tywin would be stupid not to acknowledge it. The Child would be both Stark and Lannister (if you want I can upload you a video about genetics) and would also be the rightful heir of a military powerhouse + the richest land in the westeros.

2. Tyrion is a great strategist (the siege), talker (he convinces the hill tribes and Bronn to do his bidding) and administrator (master of coin, how he sorted the drainage system in Lannisport etc). He wont be the one wielding the sword and cutting people in half. However the North are not in short supply of those type of people

3. Who raped who? Tyrion was determined that he wont have sex with Sansa unless she wanted

Tyrion would never rule the North. It would either be his wife or his son (the latter would never do it without his mother's backup). Nevertheless I fancy his chances of united the North especially if that mean another occasion to settle the score against the despicable Tywin and co. The fact that their own son would have access to the rich Westerlands mines would also act as a sweetener.

Reasonable people in the North? Really? Is this a joke? Tell me, who sounds more reasonable, a man who proclaims 16-year-old boy for a KIng because of the idea of old days, or the man who becomes a cannibal because of vengeance. The problem is that Tyrion is their enemy and we all know how Nothmen treat their enemies.

Tyrion liked Sansa, in fact he had hots for her, and if time allowed, he would have developed genuine affection for her. But, if Tywin wanted Sansa dead or hurt, Tyrion would have to eventually comply, as he always did. Tywin would not even ask Tyrion for permit and kill Sansa on his own. We are talking about the man whose hymn is "Rains of Castamere"

Who was sure that Sansa was OK with the wedding? Tyrion asking Sansa whether she is OK with the wedding is the pinnacle of hypocrisy in the series.

1. The North would be in the hands of Tyrion Lannister and you have said so. You argue here that Tyrion would be in charge which means that North would be in Tyrion's aka Lannisters hands. Thank you for your offer about genetics, but the child without his mother, raised among other Lannisters, would be no Stark in the eyes of the Northmen, especially given the fact that the child would be the product of rape.

2. And North has its own values, the values Tyrion doesn't have.

3. Sansa perfectly said she will never want Tyrion. So, the only way Tyrion would get an heir, is to rape her.

He would grow up as a Stark. It is heavily suggested that children take the name of the more powerful family or the name of lands they want to inherit.

• the world book Joffrey Lydden become Joffrey Lannister when married a Lannister and wanted her lands

Leobald Tallhart, married to a Hornwood, offers his son as the new Lord of Hornwood and mentions that he would change his name from Tallhart to Hornwood

Lady Wanywood is a Waynwood from birth yet she still rules her lands in her maiden name and her children are all Waynwoods

and obviously in Dorne were we have seen multiple Ladies marry and their offspring take their name rather than their husbands.

You dont get over a 100 families all retaining the same name from a 1,000 years ago if they didn't retain the family name. There would have been many, many females who inherited lands in the last 1,000 years.

You are joking, right? In this scenario, House Stark would be more powerful than House Lannister? That is a good one...

I disagree with this. Robb believed that, not as a result of any politically logical asumption but because he was inclined to assume the worst about Lannisters even if it didn't make sense.

Tywin was working under wrong, but actually quite logical to infer, premises. One of them was about Sansa's character, as the docile, meek and malleable child that everyone in KL thought she was. They wouldn't need to kill such a Sansa... on the contrary, a living Sansa, who has accepted her fate, would be an asset in Tywin's plans.

Moreover, they were supposed to go to Winterfell only after the prolongued war and winter have done their job in subduing the North and not before. The child would be Stark by blood and that would make him better than other options in comparaison. Remember what the northmen say of Roose, that they could accept him because they can make a deal with him... well, the same stands for Tywin.

In short, Tywin's plan suffers from the common disease many plans suffer in ASOIAF, that is, it's based on logical but completely wrong premises. And, corroborating to his thinking, there is historical precedence of such arrangements working. See the Baratheons in the Stormlands: I suppose a similar situation would be the ideal outcome from Lannister perspective.

"Send her to North or Riverlands, she will be married off to someone"

Tywin is not a fool. He was very well aware that Sansa is a dangerous. And making Sansa single in WF would be no problem for any WF lord. That way, Tywin would have lost all the power over WF. Living Sansa is dangerous for Tywin's plans, because she can always become a widow. The only way he would truly control the North is via her child, Lannister/Stark child who would be loyal to him.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Agreed: the child of Tyrion and Sansa would be so-and-so Stark (let's call him Brandon, for bonus Northern-ness). It would be painted as a restoration: Ned Stark's grandson reclaiming Winterfell from the clutches of the Boltons and Ironborn. He'd be an Old Gods follower too, presumably.

Tyrion? By this point Sansa would have been married to him for a few years. They know how they work together. There would be no accidents; Tyrion would keep a low profile, giving advice, and Sansa would be the acknowledged Lady of Winterfell.

[Mladen]

Agreed: the child of Tyrion and Sansa would be so-and-so Stark (let's call him Brandon, for bonus Northern-ness). It would be painted as a restoration: Ned Stark's grandson reclaiming Winterfell from the clutches of the Boltons and Ironborn. He'd be an Old Gods follower too, presumably.

Tyrion? By this point Sansa would have been married to him for a few years. They know how they work together. There would be no accidents; Tyrion would keep a low profile, giving advice, and Sansa would be the acknowledged Lady of Winterfell.

And this Northness in him would be installed by Lannisters? Oh, the irony :)

Again, all someone needs is to take one dwarf's head off his body and marry that Stark widow... And those are not the chances any sensible man would play against.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You are joking, right? In this scenario, House Stark would be more powerful than House Lannister? That is a good one...

How would they?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

"Send her to North or Riverlands, she will be married off to someone"

Tywin is not a fool. He was very well aware that Sansa is a dangerous. And making Sansa single in WF would be no problem for any WF lord. That way, Tywin would have lost all the power over WF. Living Sansa is dangerous for Tywin's plans, because she can always become a widow. The only way he would truly control the North is via her child, Lannister/Stark child who would be loyal to him.

I think I addressed this part in my post with this:

Moreover, they were supposed to go to Winterfell only after the prolongued war and winter have done their job in subduing the North and not before. The child would be Stark by blood and that would make him better than other options in comparaison. Remember what the northmen say of Roose, that they could accept him because they can make a deal with him... well, the same stands for Tywin.

Sure, while the war is still being fought and the potential of resistance is still existing as a threat, Sansa would not go anywhere near Winterfell or in general anywhere that there's danger that she can be taken away from Lannister hold (no need to be killed though). But, it is very explicitely clarfied that no Lannister would go north to claim Winterfell inb Sansa's name until the Northmen have had a full taste of Bolton rule, and all their remaining resources in military strength, food, and courage exhausted from war and winter.

Tywin was not stupid. His plan, as laid out, was not unrealistic. It was doable, if only things had gone his way. And, he didn't have --as far as he could know-- good reasons to believe that they wouldn't... It's just that, this is sort of a "principle" in ASOIAF, that long term plans never go as expected because of the inpredictability that is inherent in human affairs.

[Humble Maester]

Yeah, we really have to remember the premises Tywin was working with.

-Sansa is the last Stark (all the boys are dead (at least after RW), and Arya surviving seems rather unlikely)

-The North has been decimated (first the war in south, then the ironborn, then the Bolton rule (Rams-yay!) and the harsh winter that followed)

Now if Sansa were to return with the grandson of Ned (who'd at this point could be around 10 years old already), I like the idea of calling him Brandon Stark, who'd be willing to spend what little resources they have to fight that? As a bonus Sansa could come north with bunch of food to help the starving Northeners (bit like Margeary at KL).

As long as it is not obvious that it's a Lannister puppet being installed (and to be honest, I don't see it being a very good puppet), where's the fault?

Of course we know that we have plenty of Starks alive and of course there is the apocalypse coming, so the plan would not had worked. It's not because it's a bad plan, it's because no one has a complete picture of what's going on.

[Mladen]

Tywin was not stupid. His plan, as laid out, was not unrealistic. It was doable, if only things had gone his way. And, he didn't have --as far as he could know-- good reasons to believe that they wouldn't... It's just that, this is sort of a "principle" in ASOIAF, that long term plans never go as expected because of the inpredictability that is inherent in human affairs.

I am not saying that the plan was not feasible, but the problem is that the plan is more secured with Sansa being dead. The vengeance in Westeros takes high place on the list of priorities, so some retaliation is expected (look at Karstark), Plus, some "accident" could be easily organized. Tywin understood that the beautiful girl with right name such as Sansa has the political weight. The only way to neutralize the threat she would oppose in the North in the hands of some of the Northern lord is to kill her and then reclaim the North with the grandson of Ned Stark. Because, in other way, Tyrion, Sansa and boy coming to WF would undoubtedly shorten Tyrion for a head and marry Sansa. That is how easy it is to overthrow Tywin's plans with perfect Tyrion/Sansa scenario.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I am not saying that the plan was not feasible, but the problem is that the plan is more secured with Sansa being dead. The vengeance in Westeros takes high place on the list of priorities, so some retaliation is expected (look at Karstark), Plus, some "accident" could be easily organized. Tywin understood that the beautiful girl with right name such as Sansa has the political weight. The only way to neutralize the threat she would oppose in the North in the hands of some of the Northern lord is to kill her and then reclaim the North with the grandson of Ned Stark. Because, in other way, Tyrion, Sansa and boy coming to WF would undoubtedly shorten Tyrion for a head and marry Sansa. That is how easy it is to overthrow Tywin's plans with perfect Tyrion/Sansa scenario.

Where is it mentioned that Tywin would kill Sansa?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I am not saying that the plan was not feasible, but the problem is that the plan is more secured with Sansa being dead. The vengeance in Westeros takes high place on the list of priorities, so some retaliation is expected (look at Karstark), Plus, some "accident" could be easily organized. Tywin understood that the beautiful girl with right name such as Sansa has the political weight. The only way to neutralize the threat she would oppose in the North in the hands of some of the Northern lord is to kill her and then reclaim the North with the grandson of Ned Stark. Because, in other way, Tyrion, Sansa and boy coming to WF would undoubtedly shorten Tyrion for a head and marry Sansa. That is how easy it is to overthrow Tywin's plans with perfect Tyrion/Sansa scenario.

Well, no, not undoubtably. In my opinion it is very doubtable that anyone would have the strength to do so combined with the will to risk it, especially if (and that's a not an unreasonable assumption to make) their place and position is respected as long as they behave. And, in your scenario, Tyrion could have ended up a head shorter anyway and boy as a "ward", read pawn, of same hypothetical northern lord, so I don't see any comparative advantage in killing Sansa. On the contrary, an hypothetical subdued pawn Sansa would add to an image of continuation and legitimacy.

And, I don't see why Northerners would be any better or more ambitious or in general different than Stormlanders who did accept such a situation with regards to Argela Durrandon, when they saw it as in their best interest to do so.