Game 71.5

[Kat]

The primary reason I'd want to have you killed, Gertrude, is if the real finder is Spider (who would be dead by tomorrow) or if the finder dies tonight. I like plans that don't revolve around having the finder reveal everything, in case that backfires, and hedging your bets with kills makes sense in that case.

[Gertrude]

I see you're mostly worried that I am willing to follow LC. Well, Spidey is still my number one top suspect. I think it will be more effective to look for his partners. My suspicion of LC and Lany falls well, well below my suspicions of Spidey.

[Gertrude]

I get that you'd prefer not to depend on a finder, but frankly, I've apparently screwed up so badly this game that only a finder reveal will save me. So that's where I'm coming from.

[Gertrude]

An exercise for all of you. Besides me or Spidey, who would you like to see lynched today? We need to salvage this day somehow.

[Kat]

Hmmm. Ok, I guess that's what you meant by 'Spider is a major distraction'? That his obvious guilt was blinding you toward obvious possibilities?

Just to throw something out that, in terms of people being evil independently of Spider, how do you feel about Mentat? (Curiosity...I'm not proposing to lynch him today.)

[Gertrude]

Mentat and Malc are on my lowest tier right now. Perhaps I am biased, but he wanted to go to night and he also voted for Spidey over me. From my POV, he looks pretty good. I can see how that would not be convincing to anyone else. Nothing he has said otherwise had rang any alarm bells for me.

[Ser Spidey]

One question for everyone who suspects me, which seems to be about everyone:

Do my actions make sense as an FM?

I'm reffering to this fact: I had a finder code, and claimed a role just before the end of the day. Ok. Now, what happens afterwards? I come up with a shitty 'maybe I'm a finder, maybe I'm an innocent' explanation. Now, if I was an FM, pretty much any explanation would be better. I could have shut the fuck up and when I'm left alive, claim the FM guarding me, or not seeing me as a threat, or something like that. I could have claimed finder then, bringing the real finder out in the open, exposing him to a kill, even if I don't manage to get him lynched.

Instead, I posted a shitty post in the middle of the night. I realise now this was a mistake, but I was really afraid the FM could find my quite obvious code and use it against the finder. In hindsight, I realise the fear was probably unjustifyingly big, and that even the possible consequences of such an outcome wouldn't be bigger than this shitload I've gotten us into.

So, however you put it, any other way of playing this out as an FM would be better than the one I did. My mistakes as an innocent can be attributed to bad judgement and overconfidence, but my mistakes as an FM would be unmanagable by me, or, to be honest, anyone who has played 3 games of Mafia here.

So, yeah, I fucked up. Big time. My apologies to the innocents. I just hope my subpar performance in this game won't make you forget that I'm in fact a badass Mafia player who would really never play such a game if evil, and who will kick your asses again in the games to come. :P

[Ser Spidey]

Mentat and Malc are on my lowest tier right now. Perhaps I am biased, but he wanted to go to night and he also voted for Spidey over me. From my POV, he looks pretty good. I can see how that would not be convincing to anyone else. Nothing he has said otherwise had rang any alarm bells for me.

From my POV, mentat also looks pretty damn good.

[Gertrude]

Well, this play you made, while boneheaded as an innocent, works rather well for you as an FM. You lived another day and made people doubt you. You never claimed finder so when the real finder does reveal, we don't have that pseudo-certainty that you were lying. Today has been a huge waste as you and I are still the main distractions. I'd say that was a very good move for the FM.

[Gertrude]

Look, I get that in theory, I could be Spidey's FM partner. But someone revealed a role two minutes before the lynch deadline. Obviously, his reveal was terrible innocent play and excellent FM play. But in my position, would you have the balls to hammer him? Would anyone here have hammered him? I'd be shocked if they did.

You were around for a little bit before his reveal. I am not just talking about the 2 minutes after his reveal. You'll also notice that I admit the very real possibility that you and Pebs were put in a hard position.

[Kat]

So Spider, who would you rather see lynched today other than yourself?

If we end up deciding on a plan where you are lynched or vig'd, are you planning to say one way or another whether or not you are actually claiming finder?

[Mina Martell]

So ... everyone seems ok with lynching Spidey and letting Malc do his vig thing, but when we reverse the order people put the brakes on it? The only difference I really see is that we would potentially get more info from trying to form a lynch train on someone else. Oh no.

I wasn't around for his original reveal. But I don't get it. Why are you so upset that people are considering other alternatives? No one said that Malc shouldn't use his vig at all.

Anyway, what do you think of the argument that we'd narrow down the finder pool down by forcing vig targets to role reveal?

So, for the people wanting to lynch/vig both me and Spider one quick question. Who would you have investigated last night? Does my name or Spidey's figure high on that list? I'd guess that most of you were thinking, well, we'll probably lynch Spidey if he doesn't get night killed so that's a wasted investigation. Who else was looking suspicious yesterday? Pretty much me and very little on anyone else. I hope to hell I was investigated last night, and if you kill me then you potentially lose a CI when the finder does reveal. If I wasn't investigated last night or tonight, I'd bet you'd rake the finder over the coals. Am I right?

GAH!

I don't know what it is you're doing. Yes, you're right. There's a good chance the finder investigated you last night. And no one revealed today with a guilty.

But you just sound so evil saying it!

You sound like an FM who's desperately trying to stay alive. Your righteous outrage sounds phony. And at this point, you're such a suspect that you shouldn't be so horrified at the idea of being vigged and (gasp) a Spidey partner candidate surviving! At least it will help narrow the suspect pool. Anyway, don't you agree that we're better off losing a potential CI than a potential finder?

And I know that even saying this in the thread makes me look like an even more obvious Spidey partner, and I'll probably get lynched this game. But I don't care. You know what? I think I might actually believe Ser Spidey's excuse. Terrible logic and all. I agree. He would have been better off claiming finder today and trying to flush out the real finder. Even though he's been playing a crappy game (no offence, Spidey).

And maybe I'm just horribly, horribly tunnelvisioned right now, and playing the shittiest game I ever have, but I think you're a killer and Spidey probably isn't. I know thinking this flies in the face of all the evidence in the thread. And I know that every time I've been tunnelvisioned based on a gut feeling, I've ended up completely humiliated when I read the spoilers. And I hate that there are other players I haven't even looked at today. (For example, Lany has coasted all game--but hey, what happened to your suspicions of her?) But no matter what, I can't stop thinking that you're evil.

Now I have all night to make a logical case supporting this.

[Ser Spidey]

As I see it, the question of my alignment is the biggest one in the game right now. Even if I get lynched, I won't come up innocent, which can lead the manipulatory evils and misguided innocents to looking for my potential partners. Not only is this completely useless, since I can choose either extreme distancing or no distancing, and this is a non-CF game (if I was evil), but it will also lose us the game (if I was innocent).

Fortunately, the question of my alignment can be resolved. It only takes the finder to investigate me and the rest of you not to lynch/vig me.

The FM won't target me. I'm extremely lynchable. Even if we agree on this plan, and they somehow decide to target me, it's still better for them having wasted a NK on me than for you to have wasted a lynch. The beauty of it is, even if I die, the finding on me won't be lost. Once the finder reveals, and I end up being innocent, you have loads of information. The last 24 hours have been revolving around me. Every post is finding the reasons why I'm probably guilty, or maybe not. So, a find on me can't be wasted. Plus, as it has already been pointed out, not lynching me today is a win concerning the amount of information you'd get from lynching someone else.

Would I make a simmilar point, in sheer hope of saving my skin, if evil? Yes. But even if you disregard my last post, in which I state some objectively good reasons for me not being evil, you still can't argue against the benefit which knowing my alignment poses for the innocents. Even if I was evil, following this plan can't hurt the innocents, since they would know I was evil tommorow, and could proceed hunting for my partner, safe from distractions my partner/soft hearted innocents convinced by my story would pose.

So, lynch someone, vig Gert, investigate me. Foolproof. :)

[Kat]

Disregard my last post; I just realized that in all that mess, Spidey did in fact claim not-finder earlier today. :rolleyes:

[Kat]

Gertrude, there's a fairly good reason for a finder not to come out and claim you were guilty if they investigated you last night; namely, your potential partner is more difficult to discern than Spider's, so a finder would probably want to get another investigation in before revealing.

Just....speculating.

ETA: Totally would support the finder investigating Lany or Mentat. I've been ignoring them more than the people I don't even really know (Chairman Meow and Thursday) because I always think they're evil.

[LCOTNW]

Just checking in. I have to be offline for a bit again, but I will be be back before the end of the day.

Would like to hear some more contribution in particular from Meow, Thursday and Lany.

[Gertrude]

I wasn't around for his original reveal. But I don't get it. Why are you so upset that people are considering other alternatives? No one said that Malc shouldn't use his vig at all.

Anyway, what do you think of the argument that we'd narrow down the finder pool down by forcing vig targets to role reveal?

I'm not upset that people are considering other options. I am genuinely confused that no one seemed to have a problem with Malc killing person A and us lynching person B. When the order is switched, people jump all over it when the result is the same, but we just get more info from trying to form a lynch train.

I think there is plenty of info out there for the FM to make good choices. If we push hard enough to force a reveal, it sucks, but it happens. Perhaps the finder could be protected in that case. I just don't think that's it's generally good play to walk on eggshells for fear of losing our ace in the hole rather than pushing hard enough to get some real information. I don't want to narrow it by stupid, avoidable shit like people going around saying "Look at me, I'm a RI!" but if we break a few eggs getting to the truth, so be it.

Anyway, don't you agree that we're better off losing a potential CI than a potential finder?

I think that the potential to have multiple CIs is the FM's worst nightmare. It's a risk worth taking IMO.

Gertrude, there's a fairly good reason for a finder not to come out and claim you were guilty if they investigated you last night.

This was not my point. My point is that I will be a useful CI if this happened and all you have to do is wait until tomorrow (probably) to find out. I know none of you can make yourself believe that at this point.

[Gertrude]

Gertrude, there's a fairly good reason for a finder not to come out and claim you were guilty if they investigated you last night; namely, your potential partner is more difficult to discern than Spider's, so a finder would probably want to get another investigation in before revealing.

Just....speculating.

ETA: Totally would support the finder investigating Lany or Mentat. I've been ignoring them more than the people I don't even really know (Chairman Meow and Thursday) because I always think they're evil.

Is it my imagination or did you edit this post to cut out the part where you made a shot at me for not suspecting Lany anymore?

[Ser Spidey]

You sound like an FM who's desperately trying to stay alive. Your righteous outrage sounds phony. And at this point, you're such a suspect that you shouldn't be so horrified at the idea of being vigged and (gasp) a Spidey partner candidate surviving! At least it will help narrow the suspect pool. Anyway, don't you agree that we're better off losing a potential CI than a potential finder?

And I know that even saying this in the thread makes me look like an even more obvious Spidey partner, and I'll probably get lynched this game. But I don't care. You know what? I think I might actually believe Ser Spidey's excuse. Terrible logic and all. I agree. He would have been better off claiming finder today and trying to flush out the real finder. Even though he's been playing a crappy game (no offence, Spidey).

No offence at all. My play has pretty much sucked this game, I don't say that it didn't. But there is difference between misjudgement and making decisions which only a bad player would (my actions if I were FM), and I'm glad you're noticing it. We often tend to think that weird play equals guilty (that's why noobs are lynched so often), and it doesn't.

Anyway, here is another point in favour of investigating me. I think it's that safe to say that, after this post of hers, there is no way of Mina being evil if I'm innocent. So, by getting an innocent result on me, you'd also get an innocent on Mina. An added benefit to already a fine plan.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

Gah! trying to re-read the whole thread, while keeping up with the end and keeping my bothersum customers happy is a nightmare.

After Spider calimed a role and it went to night, he had time to think about his options. I can't believe an inocent spider who thought about things one min would half fake claim durring the night unless he was trying to backtrack from his reveal (because he was the real finder to aviod the night kill) Spider has since comeout and said he's not the real finder. - for that matter I can't really believe an evil Spider would make that claim durring the night.

there is far more advantage for an evil Spider to act the way he has than an innocent one. Claiming you would play better if your evil is BS and cos your playing bad must be innocent. you should and normally play much better when innocent or evil.

I know its putting our eggs in one basket, but I'm not gonna belive spiders innocence here. yes I admit its possible. Mafia has tought me that anyone can and occasionally does do illogical and insane stunts. but I have to make my judements the best I can with the evidence.

I believe Gert can not be Spiders partner. Spider could have picked someone else to make an alternative lych. Yes if it wasn't for Spiders actions I would still be suspious of Gert. The only reason to investigate Gert is the all eggs in one basket. Everyone who ihas some doubts to Spiders guilt and serriously saying we should investigate Gert do you beleive one of Gert or Spider must be evil? Is there any room for them both being innocent in your mind? Cos if there is would an investigation result on Spider it would settle weather we should look for Spider partners or not. but with Viging Spider we don't get a Finder PI/CI on a living player.

more to come, but I have another customer with hard drive issuses.