Game 71.5

[Gertrude]

As I see it, the question of my alignment is the biggest one in the game right now.

<snip>

So, lynch someone, vig Gert, investigate me. Foolproof. :)

He speaks sense, actually. It would be really useful to know beyond a shadow of a doubt what his alignment is. If we can do it without me dieing, that would be awesome, but I know it won't fly.

None of you believe me anyway, so I'm almost ok with this. Lynch me. God damn it, the finder BETTER be able to reveal tomorrow or I will be royally pissed.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

First off: when did this stop being a team game? when did people start putting their own arragnce above the team? We lynch innocents all the time. It sucks, but it happens and hte game and the team can still play and even win without any individual. [/end soap box]

Malc, if you're looking for input for your vig kill, I think I'd prefer Meow. He's too much of a blank slate and possible distraction not to mention potential Spidey partner.

If I were looking for overall most suspicious behavior ... it's tougher. Spidey has been a major distraction, but I think I'd have to go back to Lany and LC for reasons stated yesterday. I know Lany has some work stuff going on, but neither one has really dug into the game with the limited time they've had. Lany has been floating by with filler and LC is unapologetically wishy-washy.

I have expressed my thoughts and they are not filler...at least in my mind.

Mentat- Sorry. :( It's really frustrating to have missed most of day 1, and then be in the latest timezone of anyone in the game, so when people are actually able to have real-time conversations in the game, I come in late and anything I say will be interpreted as unoriginal.

That being said, I don't like LC's plan of trying to lynch a potential partner to Spider instead of Spider himself and vig Spider and then lynch another Spider potential partner tomorrow. Even though I've primarily posted against Spider so far, I'm not 100% certain that he's not innocent, and if he's innocent, lynching two options for his partner really puts the innocents in a bad spot. That's what I was trying to get at earlier. We can be almost certain that Gertrude is not Spider's partner, but a lot of people seem to suspect her still, and if she's still around later she's going to be distracting. So why not vig/lynch Spider and Gertrude instead of Spider and a Spider-partner?

I agree with this. Seems people keep coming up with reasons not to lynch Spidey. While I am not 100% convinced of his quilt, as I said earlier, he is a distraction and if he stays he will continue to be one. We need to move on and the best way to do so would be to lynch Spidey and vig the possible partner. People who want to keep Spidey around will go to the top of my suspicion list. Keeping a distraction around keeps us from looking too deep at other people.

One question for everyone who suspects me, which seems to be about everyone:

Do my actions make sense as an FM?

I'm reffering to this fact: I had a finder code, and claimed a role just before the end of the day. Ok. Now, what happens afterwards? I come up with a shitty 'maybe I'm a finder, maybe I'm an innocent' explanation. Now, if I was an FM, pretty much any explanation would be better. I could have shut the fuck up and when I'm left alive, claim the FM guarding me, or not seeing me as a threat, or something like that. I could have claimed finder then, bringing the real finder out in the open, exposing him to a kill, even if I don't manage to get him lynched.

Instead, I posted a shitty post in the middle of the night. I realise now this was a mistake, but I was really afraid the FM could find my quite obvious code and use it against the finder. In hindsight, I realise the fear was probably unjustifyingly big, and that even the possible consequences of such an outcome wouldn't be bigger than this shitload I've gotten us into.

So, however you put it, any other way of playing this out as an FM would be better than the one I did. My mistakes as an innocent can be attributed to bad judgement and overconfidence, but my mistakes as an FM would be unmanagable by me, or, to be honest, anyone who has played 3 games of Mafia here.

So, yeah, I fucked up. Big time. My apologies to the innocents. I just hope my subpar performance in this game won't make you forget that I'm in fact a badass Mafia player who would really never play such a game if evil, and who will kick your asses again in the games to come. :P

They make sense if you are an FM guard and need to stay alive as long as possible to keep the finders from finding anyone.

As I see it, the question of my alignment is the biggest one in the game right now. Even if I get lynched, I won't come up innocent, which can lead the manipulatory evils and misguided innocents to looking for my potential partners. Not only is this completely useless, since I can choose either extreme distancing or no distancing, and this is a non-CF game (if I was evil), but it will also lose us the game (if I was innocent).

Fortunately, the question of my alignment can be resolved. It only takes the finder to investigate me and the rest of you not to lynch/vig me.

The FM won't target me. I'm extremely lynchable. Even if we agree on this plan, and they somehow decide to target me, it's still better for them having wasted a NK on me than for you to have wasted a lynch. The beauty of it is, even if I die, the finding on me won't be lost. Once the finder reveals, and I end up being innocent, you have loads of information. The last 24 hours have been revolving around me. Every post is finding the reasons why I'm probably guilty, or maybe not. So, a find on me can't be wasted. Plus, as it has already been pointed out, not lynching me today is a win concerning the amount of information you'd get from lynching someone else.

Would I make a simmilar point, in sheer hope of saving my skin, if evil? Yes. But even if you disregard my last post, in which I state some objectively good reasons for me not being evil, you still can't argue against the benefit which knowing my alignment poses for the innocents. Even if I was evil, following this plan can't hurt the innocents, since they would know I was evil tommorow, and could proceed hunting for my partner, safe from distractions my partner/soft hearted innocents convinced by my story would pose.

So, lynch someone, vig Gert, investigate me. Foolproof. :)

unless you are the FM guard. and you keep brining up your code. What a bunch of horsehit. the code means nothing. As FM I have mede up to three different codes to use if needed.

[Kat]

Is it my imagination or did you edit this post to cut out the part where you made a shot at me for not suspecting Lany anymore?

No, all I did was add something to the end? Are you sure it wasn't Mina who said that?

[Ser Spidey]

Well, this play you made, while boneheaded as an innocent, works rather well for you as an FM. You lived another day and made people doubt you. You never claimed finder so when the real finder does reveal, we don't have that pseudo-certainty that you were lying. Today has been a huge waste as you and I are still the main distractions. I'd say that was a very good move for the FM.

That wasn't my point. While I also disagree with you on it being a good FM move, the point was that anyone capable of making a coherent sentence could come up with a better move as an FM. You know, revealing/lynching/killing a finder and all that stuff FM tend to do.

So, why are you so blatantly ignoring my point? I may end up being terribly tunnelvisioned, which would only add to the list of my sins this game, but to me you're just dripping sweet sticky scum right now.

[Gertrude]

Maybe it was Mina. You two were both coming at me and I thought it was you. I'll check.

[Gertrude]

Yep, it was Mina. Sorry Kat.

(For example, Lany has coasted all game--but hey, what happened to your suspicions of her?) But no matter what, I can't stop thinking that you're evil.

You don't have to go back and read my posts because - you know, I'm evil and all - but if you did, you'd find that I mentioned Lany.

[Gertrude]

Spidey, ever hear of the 'whoever's story is worse is the true finder'? I'm thinking along those lines. Because the story is so bad, why would a sane FM do it?

I am getting the sick feeling that this is Arryn v Greyjoy and it's worse because people are picking sides rather than pushing us into a corner and letting us pull each other's hair in quiet.

Like I said, lynch me, investigate Spidey (and I'm kind of counting on Malc vigging him when I am lynched) then you will have a huge distraction taken care of and can get down to business.

[Gertrude]

And just for spite because she's being a big meanie head, Mina

[Kat]

I agree with this. Seems people keep coming up with reasons not to lynch Spidey. While I am not 100% convinced of his quilt, as I said earlier, he is a distraction and if he stays he will continue to be one. We need to move on and the best way to do so would be to lynch Spidey and vig the possible partner. People who want to keep Spidey around will go to the top of my suspicion list. Keeping a distraction around keeps us from looking too deep at other people.

Not sure if you actually agree with me or not, since I suggesting lynching/vigging Spidey and Gertrude, rather than Spidey and his partner.

Anyway, I have to go judge a middle school science fair tonight for the next couple hours, but I should be back around 9:30 Pacific time, which is definitely before the end of day. May be able to read/post from my phone before then but I can't type anything complicated on there, so....

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Not sure if you actually agree with me or not, since I suggesting lynching/vigging Spidey and Gertrude, rather than Spidey and his partner.

Anyway, I have to go judge a middle school science fair tonight for the next couple hours, but I should be back around 9:30 Pacific time, which is definitely before the end of day. May be able to read/post from my phone before then but I can't type anything complicated on there, so....

I am agreeing, I think. :P I just think that Spidey needs to be the one lynched and Gert or who ever vigged.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Spidey, ever hear of the 'whoever's story is worse is the true finder'? I'm thinking along those lines. Because the story is so bad, why would a sane FM do it?

I am getting the sick feeling that this is Arryn v Greyjoy and it's worse because people are picking sides rather than pushing us into a corner and letting us pull each other's hair in quiet.

Like I said, lynch me, investigate Spidey (and I'm kind of counting on Malc vigging him when I am lynched) then you will have a huge distraction taken care of and can get down to business.

It has the ability to become an Arryn/Greyjoy thing if it is not ended.

Question: why lynch you and vig Spidey? Why not the other way around?

[Gertrude]

An exercise for all of you. Besides me or Spidey, who would you like to see lynched today? We need to salvage this day somehow.

No one has even commented on this. I take partial blame for this being a clusterfuck of a day, but Spidey and I aren't the entire problem.

[Ser Spidey]

Spidey, ever hear of the 'whoever's story is worse is the true finder'? I'm thinking along those lines. Because the story is so bad, why would a sane FM do it?

I haven't exactly heard of it, since I'm still a relatively new player compared to you, Lany, Kat, Malc, WJ, mentat...I didn't play many non-CF games, and don't really enjoy them as much. It could be that having the definite proof as an innocent, or a definite way to screw up all analysis as an FM/symp, makes it more appealing to me, or that the lack of CF makes some skills unknown and unvaluable to me stand out, I just think there's a reason most of our games in the later stages of evolution as a community have a CF.

Anyway, I can see some logic to it, although it's WIFOMy. But the thing is, what I was talking about is no subject to WIFOM or even anything a player like me, prone to messing with other players' heads and basic principles of mafia would think of. I was talking about the difference between a misjudged play and sheer bad play, and I think neither you or anyone else can argue that my choice of claim, if I was an FM, is a choice worse than anything else I or any other capable player could come up with.

I am getting the sick feeling that this is Arryn v Greyjoy and it's worse because people are picking sides rather than pushing us into a corner and letting us pull each other's hair in quiet.

If this is the case, we've probably lost the game. :(

Well, shit happens.

Like I said, lynch me, investigate Spidey (and I'm kind of counting on Malc vigging him when I am lynched) then you will have a huge distraction taken care of and can get down to business.

Well, if the two main suspects, who very very probably aren't partners, agree on such a matter... :P

[Gertrude]

Question: why lynch you and vig Spidey? Why not the other way around?

Because I think it will be more useful to get a read on Spidey. If you don't agree, why is an investigation on me going to gain? Also, I think Malc is much more likely to follow through on a Spidey vig than a vig on me.

[Gertrude]

(re:Arryn Greyjoy)

If this is the case, we've probably lost the game. :(

It's bad, but not irretrievable.

Well, if the two main suspects, who very very probably aren't partners, agree on such a matter... :P

I know, I know. It kills me to agree with you. I hope you are evil (and I think you are), but my certainty is not what it was earlier today. We just really need to get past this by drastic means if necessary.

[Mina Martell]

Gert, I'm sorry if I missed your Lany suspicions. I'll admit that I've been struggling to catch up.

Should I go to the work of writing that monster case? Because if you're going to let us lynch you... :P

I think there is plenty of info out there for the FM to make good choices.

Admit it. You've got the finder narrowed down to a couple of players in your secret assassin forum, don't you? :P

(I jest, I jest.) :leaving:

If we push hard enough to force a reveal, it sucks, but it happens. Perhaps the finder could be protected in that case.

Gert, do you think it's likely that there's a finder, a vig, and a two-shot healer out there? (I suppose it's possible.)

<snip>

I think that the potential to have multiple CIs is the FM's worst nightmare. It's a risk worth taking IMO.

Um...I see a major, major flaw in this logic.

Where do those multiple CIs come from?

Answer: from the finder!

If you die, we lose one CI (assuming you're innocent). If the finder dies, on the other hand...then we'll never know whether you were innocent or guilty.

I believe Gert can not be Spiders partner. Spider could have picked someone else to make an alternative lych. Yes if it wasn't for Spiders actions I would still be suspious of Gert. The only reason to investigate Gert is the all eggs in one basket. Everyone who ihas some doubts to Spiders guilt and serriously saying we should investigate Gert do you beleive one of Gert or Spider must be evil? Is there any room for them both being innocent in your mind? Cos if there is would an investigation result on Spider it would settle weather we should look for Spider partners or not. but with Viging Spider we don't get a Finder PI/CI on a living player.

Well, they both look pretty terrible. :P I think the facts against Spidey are pretty bad, but his reactions seem genuine. He does a good job of acting like the innocent who made a boneheaded decision.

I'm really suspicious of Gert, but given my track record, I suppose it's possible that they're both innocent. Although if Gertrude and Ser Spidey are both innocent, then this probably counts as the worst game the innocents have ever played on this site, and we deserve to lose.

Lany, I still prefer the lynch-Gert, vig-Spidey possibility, because I think that even if Malc vigs Spidey, an investigation of Spidey will tell us more than an investigation of Gert. Remember, if the FM have a guard and Spidey is evil, they'll be forced to use it on Malc to block his vig kill, leaving the finder clear to investigate him. So either Spidey dies tonight, or he'll be lynched tomorrow AND we'll have concrete evidence that he's evil. And his partners should be pretty easy to catch.

I also think Malc would be more comfortable vigging Spidey than Gert.

And just for spite because she's being a big meanie head, Mina

I love you too, Gertrude.

(For the record, if you're actually innocent...um, lalala, let's pretend this game never existed, why don't we.)

[Pebble thats Stubby]

I don't want to lynch Gert today. and I don't want her Vigged. The reason, I don't think Gert and Spider can be parteners. out of the two Spider is most likely evil. + Gert was a likely choice for last nights investigation.

If Spider is investigated tongith (not 100% convinced this is the right thing to do, having a living CI or CE result on someone else may be better) and having a result possible result of Gert would tell us a lot of info.

I think spider is too much of a distraction and should die either today / tonight. I also think he is Evil.

as to who I want lynched Vigged instead well I'm not really sure. I understand where Mina was coming from yesterday being in exactly the same possition.

Meow is still a blind spot and at some point we're gonna have to deal with him unless he starts playing more.

maybe we should lynch someone who could be either Spiders or Gerts partner for best chance of hitting an evil without definatly knowing their allingments.

[Gertrude]

Gert, do you think it's likely that there's a finder, a vig, and a two-shot healer out there? (I suppose it's possible.)

Weren't you the one trying to nullify Thursday's declaration of Spidey's guilt last night? Why are you trying to downplay the healer threat? And for the record, I do think there would be three inno roles if there were 3 FM.

Um...I see a major, major flaw in this logic.

Where do those multiple CIs come from?

Answer: from the finder!

If you die, we lose one CI (assuming you're innocent). If the finder dies, on the other hand...then we'll never know whether you were innocent or guilty.

This is why I called it a risk. The risks my way are greater, but so is the payoff.

(For the record, if you're actually innocent...um, lalala, let's pretend this game never existed, why don't we.)

Forgotten already.

[Gertrude]

Meow is still a blind spot and at some point we're gonna have to deal with him unless he starts playing more.

So, soooo this.

Along with Meow, LC and Thursday are lying low. Despite Lany's recent posts, she is lying low as well. She posted thoughts on the Spidey/Gert fight, but nothing else. Then again, no one else has either, so meh.

[Sir Thursday]

I'm back, a bit later than planned (seemed like I missed every connection on my journey home tonight :().

Looking back over these past couple of pages, I'm feeling a little more confident about my vote on Spidey. Something about his style reminds me of how I end up playing when I'm scum in a tight spot - I think it's all the questions he keeps asking.

Gertrude was on L-2 yesterday, but I'm struggling to pick out why she's a cast iron candidate for 'other suspicious person that needs to be lynched'. The only things that really stand out to me are her mini-tantrum yesterday, which came off ever so slightly too faked for my liking, and her behaviour around the end of day, during which it felt like she was almost pleading with Pebble/Mina to hammer Spidey. The latter is somewhat natural, especially given what Spidey was doing at that time, so I can forgive her that. So I guess it comes down to the tantrum and how easily she fell away from her suspicions when noone would support her. Suspicious? Well, a little bit. But it feels like she's the other candidate by dint of no-one else doing anything rather than her play being especially damning.

Malcolm's reveal seems solid, for the most part - I don't really see the percentage in a fake reveal this early, since if things don't add up we'll have lots of time to untangle the lies. The one thing I would say is that he is claiming to have an ability to predict an NK, which is something that is particularly easy for killers to do. But I think that's a concern that I should shelve for the time being until we have some data on that front to analyze.

As far as strategy for the rest of today is concerned, I agree with Malcolm's analysis here for the most part, although I need to go back and double check the situation when Lany voted for Spidey at some point. Given that, I think his plan for who to vig seems valid. I like it being the way round it is, since unlike him I am not convinced there isn't a scum guard, and would prefer not to have him try to vig Spidey only to be blocked.

What else...

- My initial reaction to Mina's "I could cry right now" was that it seemed weird to me, but others (Malc, I think) have since commented that it's in character for her, so I don't feel like I can attach much value to that judgement. Unless someone else wants to back me up on that?

- I feel like Lany has gone through completely under my radar. LCOTNW and Chairman Meow I've at least noticed, but at times I've forgotten she was playing.

- Mentat has been keeping things on friendly terms and generally being reasonable...I've been burned by overlooking that type of play before. However, without the time for a proper comb-through (which doesn't look like happening any time soon...maybe Friday lunchtime), I can't really go and look for things to justify/quash my unease.

- I must apologize for not having as much time as I'd like to dedicate to this right now. Was expecting to have more free evenings than I've ended up with this week. I desperately need to go and scout out some of the other players, it's just a question of finding the time - I'm very conscious of the fact I haven't been able to contribute as much stuff as I should have done.

Anyway, I really need to hit the sack now. Adios, all.