Generation X of American Politics

[BloodRider]

Continuing the thread.

Are the kinds of people who believed that Swift Boat rumors the kinds of people who would have considered voting for Kerry anyway? Honestly, I think that, with the Internet, there are actually fewer excuses for ignorance rather than more. In medieval Europe (before the printing press), I could understand if someone believed Karl Rove when he said that John Kerry was a bastard born of incest and not the trueborn heir to the Presidency; if there's no one else around to tell you how stupid and wrong that is (or give you an alternate explanation, or a more convincing lie), then it makes sense that you wouldn't be able to. But when there are entire websites dedicated to debunking ridiculous lies, pundits are responsible for stepping up their game (ambiguities would help here) and viewers are expected to realize that an ad put out by one major party isn't going to be unbiased about the other major party.

Except thats not how people parse information. I would love to see hard numbers on this, but anecdotally speaking, I know of 4 self defined "independents" people who voted for Bush because of the anti-Kerry screed that was pouring out of the Republican camp.

Hell even I was fooled. I certainly wasn't going to vote for Bush, but the whole wishy washy flip-flopper rhetoric help me decide to vote for Michael Badnarik instead. Shame on me yes, but I think you give us humans too much credit for being able to approach a subject like voting with such rationality. We simply can't. Especially when it is tied to things like our security, or our ability to provide for our loved ones. I heard some interesting opinion today about how that is why Brown won the election. It wasn't health care, it was his ability to stroke voters on security. This is despite of the fact that Eric Holder is doing a much better job at getting info out of terrorists.

TrackerNeil, almost every CD or DVD you buy, every movie you've seen, every book or magazine published, is created, published, printed, or has its rights owned by a corporation.

Despite that FLOW, such works of art are communal property. This is explicitly stated in the constitution. To whit:

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.

In other words they are merely renting the ideas and concepts.

[awesome possum]

You don't choose to watch TV? Someone is coming into your house and holding a gun to your head?

Change the friggin channel.

And most people also CHOOSe to pay for cable.

So the distinction is.... What... having to leave your house? larger screen size? The smell of popcorn?

The distinction is, these billion-dollar corporations are going to saturate the airwaves with their phony, biased messages. I'll never personally be bothered because I don't have cable, even basic cable. If I want to watch something, I download it.

But there are millions upon millions of Americans who don't do that and who don't change the channel when their favorite shows are on. And they're going to be lied to or manipulated by corporations that only want what is best for their board of directors.

I'm sorry, but it's pretty freaking ridiculous that anyone could argue FOR that.

[Swordfish]

The distinction is, these billion-dollar corporations are going to saturate the airwaves with their phony, biased messages. I'll never personally be bothered because I don't have cable, even basic cable. If I want to watch something, I download it.

But there are millions upon millions of Americans who don't do that and who don't change the channel when their favorite shows are on. And they're going to be lied to or manipulated by corporations that only want what is best for their board of directors.

I'm sorry, but it's pretty freaking ridiculous that anyone could argue FOR that.

As ridiculous as making the argument that going to the movies is a choice, but watching TV isn't?

[awesome possum]

As ridiculous as making the argument that going to the movies is a choice, but watching TV isn't?

I love the obtuseness you display on such a frequent basis.

[Swordfish]

I love the obtuseness you display on such a frequent basis.

So.... That's a yes, then?

[lokisnow]

Continuing the thread.

Except thats not how people parse information.

Glenn Beck did not rape and murder a young girl in 1990

John McCain definitely didn't father an illegitimate black child.

[Shryke]

As ridiculous as making the argument that going to the movies is a choice, but watching TV isn't?

Yeah, you can turn the TV off.

Leaving your choice "Watch our message or watch nothing".

[Shryke]

That gets into cognitive science, though. Tell someone over and over again that 'x isn't true' and there's a decent chance they'll lose the 'isn't'.

But this is exactly the point.

More information just means more disinformation. And people know this. Marketing is all about cognitive science.

[Shryke]

Also, looks like Obama is on board for Reconciliation now:

President Obama will put forward comprehensive health care legislation intended to bridge differences between Senate and House Democrats ahead of a summit meeting with Republicans next week, senior administration officials and Congressional aides said Thursday.

Democratic officials said the president’s proposal was being written so that it could be attached to a budget bill as a way of averting a Republican filibuster in the Senate. The procedure, known as budget reconciliation, would let Democrats advance the bill with a simple majority rather than a 60-vote supermajority.

“It will be a reconciliation bill,” one Democratic aide said. “If Republicans don’t come with any substantial offers, this is what we would do.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/health/policy/19health.html

[TheKassi]

Yeah, you can turn the TV off.

Leaving your choice "Watch our message or watch nothing".

You say that like we live in a world without Tivo, DDRs, Showtime, HBO, Stars, Cinimax, On demand, channel surfing, getting up and doing light cleaning, or fetching snacks, going to the bathroom, or hitting the mute button and doing a bit of chatting, or any of the other dozens of things people do instead of watching television advertisements.

[Shryke]

You say that like we live in a world without Tivo, DDRs, Showtime, HBO, Stars, Cinimax, On demand, channel surfing, getting up and doing light cleaning, or fetching snacks, going to the bathroom, or hitting the mute button and doing a bit of chatting, or any of the other dozens of things people do instead of watching television advertisements.

You say that like we live in a world where people don't watch television advertisements.

[lokisnow]

Also, looks like Obama is on board for Reconciliation now:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/health/policy/19health.html

a bit scary that its come to this, because its terrific election fodder, but at least Obama realizes that not passing it is even scarier and would result in worse outcomes for democrats.

re the Supreme Court decision selling out the country:

The republicans already have their own insanely biased news channel, dems do not have an equivalently biased news channel, now we're going to have to deal with republican interests being able to buy every ad space on every network, major cable, and neutral news channel as well. I fully expect to see up to 10-20 billion dollars to be spent by corporate interests, in about a 90-10 split in favor of republicans, next presidential election cycle.

[Shryke]

Eh, honestly corporations tend to be pro-whoever-takes-bribes. Which includes alot of Democrats too.

Their money follows whichever party looks like it's gonna win.

But I'd say they generally prefer Republicans if only because they are more pro-less-regulation.

[Shryke]

That's a good point. What it most likely means is that we can look forward to increasingly bought-and-paid for representatives.

Pretty much.

You can see it from the last election as money shifted from Republicans to Democrats as the Democrats gained ascendancy. Gotta make sure the people in power are still payed off.

Hell, just look at the Health Care debate. Democrats dragging their feet on it correlate to a non-surprising degree with people who got money from Health Insurance companies.

The problem isn't WHO is being bought, but the fact that they are being bought period.

[TheKassi]

You say that like we live in a world where people don't watch television advertisements.

Cute but I said no such thing. I said that there are far more options then simply "Watch our message or watch nothing"

Some people do often watch television advertisements. Many others simply choose not to while still managing to spend hours each day sitting in front of the TV.

[drawkcabi]

Kind of off topic but not worth starting another thread and it's kind of related to politics. Yesterday I went to the dentist to have a tooth extracted. They were talking cutting and stitches and all because the tooth had 3 roots going in 3 directions and the dentist thought theyd have to take out each root surgically.

So there I am sitting in the dentist chair and they are numbing me up and in this office each chair has it's own TV. The dental assistant just puts the TV in front of me not asking if I wanted it or not and of course the channel it's on is Fox News.

Up until this point I was taking it all in stride but now I have to think about going through the procedure with Fox News droning on in the background with continuing coverage of CPAC :bawl:

Thoughts start racing through my head. Should I ask them to change the channel? What if the dentist is a hardcore conservative and gets peeved if I show a distaste for Fox News? Will he take it out on my poor tooth?

I just decided to keep my mouth shut and bear through the pain. Luckily my tooth proved stronger than the dentist thought and it came out roots and all with one good yank. I was out of there in no time. Whew!

[Shryke]

Cute but I said no such thing. I said that there are far more options then simply "Watch our message or watch nothing"

Some people do often watch television advertisements. Many others simply choose not to while still managing to spend hours each day sitting in front of the TV.

Yes, you did.

Your implication is that people will skip advertisements.

In the real world, while some people do, most don't and those ads reach ALOT of people.

Cry TIVO all you want, it's not happening.

[Annelise]

As ridiculous as making the argument that going to the movies is a choice, but watching TV isn't?

Radio, TV, mail.. it's all a choice, purely speaking. I also think that, practically speaking, the public is and always will be prone to manipulation through these mediums. The argument just turns on how we ought to approach that. If you feel that an individual choice is enough, I really have no quarrel with that. I just don't agree with it because I think it leads to a higher degree of manipulation and political disengagement rather than personal responsibility and political investment (on an individual level).

[tzanth]

Also, looks like Obama is on board for Reconciliation now:

I certainly hope this happens. Hopefully the reconciliation bill will be stronger than the original ones were, and at least at this point the Democrats can easily point to the last year as an example of attempting to work within the system.

[Shryke]

This seems to be the plan right now.

There's a summit thing going on about Healthcare in the next month or so and the feeling seems to be that if the GOP continues to just dick around, Obama will push for saying "Fuck it! We gave you the chance to work with us" and using Reconciliation.