List of mistakes in the books

[Lord Varys]

Well, well, finally our good Lord Varys' not-so-pudgy hands are going to leave their powder marks on GRRM's work. Meaning, I'm now officially involved in the revision of the German translation of the series. And of course I'm now not only forced to defend it vehemently against all critics, but rather in the unique position of total ASoIaF nerd who is able to preserve the subtleties of the text and correcting both the mistakes of the translation and of the original. I've, for example, already changed Viserys II heritage (he was still Aegon's III son in the translation), corrected Rhaenyra's backstory in the appendix of AGoT in accordance to the new information, and integrated the first Daenerys and Maron Martell in the 'House Martell' appendix entry. And if I get my way, then Stannis and Renly will not be styled 'Lords' but 'Princes' while Robert is still alive.

But the real deal is to correct the minor glitches and mistakes in the text. As for know, I'm working only on AGoT, but in early January I will revise the manuscript for the first half of ACoK. I do know some of the mistakes in the text ('Daeren Targaryen' was always Daeron Targaryen in the German text, but I have already corrected Renly's wrong eye color), but it would be really appreciated if you guys would throw any typing error, wrong eye color, wrong banner, wrong hair colors, problematic landscape, and other mistakes I do not remember on me. I'd be really pissed off by myself, if I'd let anything slip my mind and in the end realize that I could have prevented this, this, and that.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

I thought aFfC tended to have more errors than any of the other books, at least the US addition; one pretty clearcut one was LF telling Alayne about Harrenhal's curse:

"A bear killed one, your dwarf the other. Lady Whent's died as well, I hear. Lothstons, Strongs, Harroways, Strongs...Harrenhal has withered every hand to touch it."

That second Strongs should either be Towers (makes sense if he was working his way backward chronologically), Qoherys, Whent, or even Hoare.

Offhand, I think there was one time when Dontos Hollard's blazon was described as having a black chief instead of blue, but that could be explained as a POV not seeing it clearly.

[Lord Varys]

When I'm dealing with AFfC I'll switch the second Strong (the Strongs can't be 'Starks' as the Starks remained Starks - but 'Kraft' would work as well) for Towers (which then could become be 'Türmen'). Littlefinger does not strike me as particularly interested in history unless the topic in question is important to his plans. So I won't go back to the Qoherys and the Hoares. He knows everything about the Arryn family tree, but but does not really care about the fate of Aerys' Hands.

Oh, and I could try to get the House name 'Hoare' in the appendix as well.

Does anybody know if GRRM ever commented on the fact that Ned believes he knows Prince Tommen although he has seen Robert for the last time during the Greyjoy Rebellion? I read some theories about Ned meeting with Cersei somewhere without Robert accompanying her (and this is possible, of course) but is there a word from GRRM on this topic?

[Lady Blackfish]

There's no word from GRRM on that, I don't believe. Ran (IIRC?) hypothesizes that Cersei herself was traveling to Casterly Rock with her brood, but sans Robert while Lord and Lady Stark were visiting Riverrun, and the two parties crossed paths at some point and that's how they met. I figure Ran would know if there was some official word from GRRM on that little detail, if anyone would know.

[Lord Varys]

Well, it would be easier to imagine that all of them besides Robert met at Riverrun to celebrate Hoster's fiftieth birthday of something like that. We have no reason to assume that there was ever bad blood between Casterly Rock and Riverrun before the War of the Five Kings. Actually, I can even imagine that Lannisters and Tullys got along pretty well.

A chance encounter on the road would stretch things to much, I imagine. And Cersei most likely would have suspected the Starks of treason or something like that, as they were not supposed to be down here ;-).

[Lord Varys]

Oh, and in Arya's first chapter in AGoT it reads 'the warrior queen of the Rhoyne'. Would it not be better to change this to 'Rhoynar'? After all, the Rhoyne turned out to be the river from whom the Rhoynar as people derived their name. And they were already called Rhoynar before Nymeria lead them to Dorne, were they not?

[Patrick Tully]

That might be a mistake, or it might be like calling her a warrior queen of the region (IE. of the Amazon) versus warrior queen of the people of the region (IE. of the Amazonians).

[Lord Varys]

Do we know that 'Pyke' is really the bastard name for all the Iron Islands? I must confess I don't like that at all...

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Do we know that 'Pyke' is really the bastard name for all the Iron Islands? I must confess I don't like that at all...

The name itself, or that it covers all the islands? Pyke as a bastard name is definite; we have Cotter Pyke, Wex Pyke, and Ragnor Pyke. It wouldn't make any sense at all for each island's name to be the bastard name for it's inhabitants, since Harlaw and Blacktyde are lord's names.

It seems pretty clear that Pyke is for all of them, to me. Though it's one of the few things in the series that I don't care for; something like "Brine" would work better for me. The other bastard names are all things which are extremely commonplace in their respective regions. While there are doubtless plenty of the fish pike in Ironman's Bay, they hardly seem so ubiquitous that people are practically tripping over them. Whereas with sand and snow and hills,etc, those could be things visible as far as the eye could see in their regions.

[Lord Varys]

The irritating thing with Pyke is, that I could imagine it becoming the bastard name for all the Islands (and this is what I meant, I knew that it was a bastard name) if the Greyjoys would have ruled the Ironborns for thousands of years. But why not (Old) Wyk? Well, maybe I'm going to change that name to 'Salt'.

[Ran]

First ... why make Renly and Stannis princes instead of lords? This was not an oversight by GRRM. It was a deliberate choice on his part.

The same with the Iron Islands bastard names. For whatever reason, he chose Pyke. Why assume that his reasons can be improved on? As to why, well, purely speculative, but perhaps there's some special significance to Pyke in ironborn theology or history that we haven't yet heard of that makes it particularly apt for bastard names...

My theory was that Cersei travelled to Casterly Rock to show off Prince Tommen to her father, and of course propriety required her to be a guest at Riverrun even though she was just passing through ... and that's where Catelyn and Ned happened to be, visiting Lord Hoster (possibly following Lysa having given birth to Robert and bringing him to Riverrun to show to Hoster, in turn). Seems as good a possibility as any, I suppose.

I'd leave Nymeria as warrior queen of the Rhoyne -- George already used Rhoynar in a previous chapter or two, so this isn't something where he hadn't yet come up with the Rhoynar.

One thing George has said was that, in retrospect, he wished he had varied titles a little -- having all the lords just be lords wasn't as colorful as he wanted. I believe he speculated on using the title of 'Earl' for the lords of the Great Houses. So I think a change along these lines might be one that would be in the spirit of his intentions.

[cybroleach]

I'll just throw it out there Bran's horse Dancer turn from male to female or viceversa at somepoint. You probably already have this though.

[The Anti-Targ]

First ... why make Renly and Stannis princes instead of lords? This was not an oversight by GRRM. It was a deliberate choice on his part.

What's the rules around this sort of thing? I can understand Prince Harry staying as Prince Harry when Willy becomes King of England, because he was born a prince. But when someone becomes King through conquest does that automatically make his siblings princes and princesses?

Perhaps you can be a Lord and Prince? And it's a matter of choice about what title you want to use. I can see Renly wanting to be called a Prince, but Stannis wanting the less pretentious Lord. Alternatively I can see Stannis wanting his status as being in line for the throne formally acknowledged through being addressed as Prince (just because it is right, not because he wants to be king some day), where Renly may not have any special interest in all that stuff so is happy to stay as Lord (what is he lord of? Doesn't Stannis hold lordship over all Baratheon lands?)

[cybroleach]

What's the rules around this sort of thing? I can understand Prince Harry staying as Prince Harry when Willy becomes King of England, because he was born a prince. But when someone becomes King through conquest does that automatically make his siblings princes and princesses?

Perhaps you can be a Lord and Prince? And it's a matter of choice about what title you want to use. I can see Renly wanting to be called a Prince, but Stannis wanting the less pretentious Lord. Alternatively I can see Stannis wanting his status as being in line for the throne formally acknowledged through being addressed as Prince (just because it is right, not because he wants to be king some day), where Renly may not have any special interest in all that stuff so is happy to stay as Lord (what is he lord of? Doesn't Stannis hold lordship over all Baratheon lands?)

No. Renly's Lord of Storm's End, Lord of the Stormlands, and a Lord of small council.

For a ruleing on the historical stuff you'd have to look for someone else.

[Lord Varys]

The title stuff was one of my first ideas when they asked me to help them with this stuff, but as they have already published the first volume of this thing, they are not particularly eager to change it. And if I'd make the Great Lords 'Herzöge', then I'd also have to differentiate between major and minor smaller houses, as it would not be that convincing if they were all 'Freiherren' then. I could do that, sure, but the editors don't want me to. At least not for now.

Making Renly and Stannis Princes is both a remnant of the whole feudal system idea (technically, I'd have been forced to style all sons of the Great Houses as 'Princes', as this is the proper styling in German for 'herzogliche Kinder', and I was already trying to find a workable way to distinguish the members of the royal family from the other Princes), and then there is the fact that Theon, and Bran and Rickon become Princes when Balon and Robb declare themselves Kings. This is inconsistent with the Lords Baratheon being Lords Baratheon in AGoT. One really should assume that Robert's brothers would have been styled Princes after Robert became the King on the Iron Throne. Stannis was considered Heir Presumptive to the Iron Throne for three years (and technically he remained the Heir Presumptive until Robert died). And I can't convince myself that these nobles would forfeit these titles after they got their own Lordships. If you are the brother of the King, then you remain the brother of the King. And as brother to the King you are a Prince in Westeros.

I agree that GRRM did deliberately choose to make Stannis and Renly mere Lords. But as a concept this does only work in AGoT. ACoK introduced us to the concept that the siblings of Kings are Princes as well. And THK showed us this huge amount of Targaryen Princes.

I asked GRRM about this whole issue, and if he does not want such a change, I'll stick to the Lords.

The problem with Rhoyne is more that I don't really know how to put that in German. 'Kriegerkönigin der Rhoynar' is pretty easy, but I'm not sure that 'Kriegerkönigin der Rhoyne' (that's what they have used until now) would be correct. This is a river, and not a plural form, if I'm not mistaken, so technically it would have to be 'Kriegerkönigin des Rhoyne' (or 'der Rhoyne', if 'Rhoyne' is supposed to be female). But you can't possibly be the warrior queen of a river, can you? Well, maybe I'm just ignoring it and act as if 'Rhoyne' would be equivalent to 'Rhoynar', but right now I do believe that this is not the case.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

But you can't possibly be the warrior queen of a river, can you? Well, maybe I'm just ignoring it and act as if 'Rhoyne' would be equivalent to 'Rhoynar', but right now I do believe that this is not the case.

You can be Governor of Mississippi. Even though Mississippi is a river, it's also a state.

From what I gather, King of (people X) was more common in the middle ages than King of (state X), though the latter form eventually overtook it in most places by the Renaissance (Scotland being an exception), but both forms were used. Maybe the Rhoynar were ahead of their time.

[wolf's blood]

Perhaps you can be a Lord and Prince?

In English history John of Gaunt, the younger brother to Edward the Black Prince and son of Edward III, was a prince and a duke (of Lancaster, I believe). So he would have been a prince and what would amount to, insofar as English history, the lord of a great house in Westeros.

[Ahmrogar]

The title stuff was one of my first ideas when they asked me to help them with this stuff, but as they have already published the first volume of this thing, they are not particularly eager to change it. And if I'd make the Great Lords 'Herzöge', then I'd also have to differentiate between major and minor smaller houses, as it would not be that convincing if they were all 'Freiherren' then. I could do that, sure, but the editors don't want me to. At least not for now.

Making Renly and Stannis Princes is both a remnant of the whole feudal system idea (technically, I'd have been forced to style all sons of the Great Houses as 'Princes', as this is the proper styling in German for 'herzogliche Kinder', and I was already trying to find a workable way to distinguish the members of the royal family from the other Princes), and then there is the fact that Theon, and Bran and Rickon become Princes when Balon and Robb declare themselves Kings. This is inconsistent with the Lords Baratheon being Lords Baratheon in AGoT. One really should assume that Robert's brothers would have been styled Princes after Robert became the King on the Iron Throne. Stannis was considered Heir Presumptive to the Iron Throne for three years (and technically he remained the Heir Presumptive until Robert died). And I can't convince myself that these nobles would forfeit these titles after they got their own Lordships. If you are the brother of the King, then you remain the brother of the King. And as brother to the King you are a Prince in Westeros.

I agree that GRRM did deliberately choose to make Stannis and Renly mere Lords. But as a concept this does only work in AGoT. ACoK introduced us to the concept that the siblings of Kings are Princes as well. And THK showed us this huge amount of Targaryen Princes.

I asked GRRM about this whole issue, and if he does not want such a change, I'll stick to the Lords.

The problem with Rhoyne is more that I don't really know how to put that in German. 'Kriegerkönigin der Rhoynar' is pretty easy, but I'm not sure that 'Kriegerkönigin der Rhoyne' (that's what they have used until now) would be correct. This is a river, and not a plural form, if I'm not mistaken, so technically it would have to be 'Kriegerkönigin des Rhoyne' (or 'der Rhoyne', if 'Rhoyne' is supposed to be female). But you can't possibly be the warrior queen of a river, can you? Well, maybe I'm just ignoring it and act as if 'Rhoyne' would be equivalent to 'Rhoynar', but right now I do believe that this is not the case.

I have an alternate theory. Assume prince regards one in direct line for the throne.

Maybe Stannis and Renly were princes once, before Joffrey and Tommen, but after their birth the Baratheon brothers were no longer in a direct line to the throne so they were no longer princes, to call them a prince could be considered a sleight against Joffrey and Tommen.

With Robb, Bran and Rickon it is simple. Robb had no heir so if he were to fall his mantle would have to be passed on to Bran or Rickon, thus they are the princes. If his child were born, Bran and Rickon would remain lords but they would no longer hold the title of 'prince' because they are no longer in the direct line. That is, all Robb's children must die (or male ones) before they get a shot.

Alternatively, the Baratheons might just do things differently.

[Rhaegar]

So, Lord Varys, I hope you will not only take your time to change the few mistakes Martin made in the original books, but also look to correct some of the horrible translations and inconsequence of the new translation. There is always going to be a second printing, so there's still time to change some of the horrendous translations (like "Hunter" to "Hanter", "Preston Greenfield" to "Preston Grünfeld" or "Highgarden" to "Rosengarten".) I still think the German publisher will realise the new translation was a big mistake if (hopefully) the HBO-Series will be synchronized for the German TV.

[Lord Varys]

Ahmrogar,

your take on the thing would at least make some sense - if it would be contradicted by things in 'The Hedge Knight'. There, even Maekar Targaryen and his children (including Egg) are styled Princes. The Line of Succession at this time looks like that:

1. Daeron II. Targaryen, King of the etc.

2. Baelor 'Breakspear' Targaryen, his firstborn son

3. Valarr Targaryen, Baelor's firstborn son

4. Matarys Targaryen, Baelor's second son

5. Matarys' male children (I'm not sure if I remember correctly, but I believe he had children of his own)

6. Aerys Targaryen (King Daeron's second son)

7. Rhaegel Targaryen (King Daeron's third son)

8. Rhaegel's firstborn son

9. Rhaegel's second son

10. Maekar Targaryen (King Daeron's fourth son)

11. Daeron Targaryen (Maekar's firstborn son)

12. Aerion Targaryen (Maekar's second son)

13. Aemon Targaryen (Maekar's third son - he was at the Citadel at this time, but had not yet finished his chain or sworn his oaths)

14. Aegon Targaryen ('Egg' - Maekar's fourth son)

15. The Targaryen women

All these guys were Princes. Now let's look at the Line of Succession on Robert's case. I'll use the no females clause of the law of succession which was 'issued' after the Dance of Dragons. I'm pretty that this was still in effect during the Baratheon regime, although not necessarily consciously. If Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen had died in an accident, during a peaceful time period, I don't see the Lords of the Realm rallying behind Myrcella. They would go to the King's brothers. Myrcella seems to important only because the Iron Throne has disinherited Stannis, and no one seems to be interested to look for Myrcella's male heirs. Especially as one would most likely have to search among the smaller houses of the Stormlands. And the Lannister have no interest doing this.

Robert did not change anything in KL after he took over. All he did was hiding the dragon skulls. He did not got rid of the dreadful chair, he did not redesign the throne room (although he lamented that there were no chairs in it besides the Iron Throne).

1. Robert I. Baratheon, King of the etc.

2. Joffrey Baratheon ('his firstborn son')

3. Tommen Baratheon ('his second son')

4. Stannis Baratheon (Robert's elder brother)

5. Renly Baratheon (Robert's younger brother)

6. Myrcella Baratheon ('Robert's daughter')

I can only repeat myself. If Egg and Maekar are Princes, and if Theon, Bran, and Rickon become Princes, then Renly and Stannis should also have become Princes. That they did not, shows that GRRM changed his mind on this topic after AGoT was out. Hell, Renly was more years of his life brother to the King than brother to the Lord of/heir to Storm's End.

Rhaegar,

the German problems are another matter. And there many errors besides the new translations of the names. Remember Stannis and Renly being 'Brüder der Königin' in the Tobho Mott chapter? Or Ghost 'silent snarl' being 'ein leises Knurren' despite the fact that two pages ago the fact was established that Ghost never made any vocal sound? Things like that won't be there anymore. And Stannis and Renly have finally their proper offices in the Small Council in the appendix. I even revised the Varys and Illyrio conversation Arya overhears. Die kleinen Vögel müssen nicht länger ihre Briefe können, sondern sollen in der Lage sein, zu schreiben. Und es geht auch nicht mehr ums Zungenhüten, sondern um das Zungenbehalten ;-).

'Hanter' I dislike as well. I'm really trying to replace that with 'Jäger'. But with 'Peiper', another not-so-good-decision I could live with. 'Marq Peiper' does not really look that bad. And I have to admit that I like the whole approach to create more German names. Names like 'Weißwasserhafen' sound really great in my opinion. 'Rosengarten' is not perfect, and I admit that 'Hohengarten' would be more closer to the original, but I have no problem with that. There are plenty of golden roses in Highgarden, as far as I know, and I'm sure the Gardeners and not the Tyrells planted them first. They seem to be not that eager to change names which are already on the map, as this would cost more (I tried to replace 'der Verfluchte Wald' with 'der Heimgesuchte Wald').

About the dubbing of the TV series I do not really think right now. Plenty of names will not be even mentioned. We are never going to hear the name 'Preston Greenfield' there, for instance. 'Greenfield' becoming 'Grünfeld' is okay with me, but I see the problem with German-English hybrid names.