The Wise Man's Fear III [Spoilers and Speculation within]

[thistlepong]

I found another continuity error in the book, btw. Do these errors bother anyone else? GRRM has a few, although I've only ever a caught two or three across four books, and I'm sure other authors make mistakes too but Wise Man's Fear has an unusually large number of them and it does spoil my reading pleasure somewhat.

May I ask again for a list? "Unusually large number of them," kind of indicates there are more than I noticed and I know you love lists.

[lanceschaubert]

Been on hiatus in the woods. Not really, but I might as well have. Here's a piecemeal:

I meant no disrespect there. I'm actually fond of your interpretation, so thanks. Sheer actually calls out in a couple other ways: literally "a turning of the tide," which is precisely what Skarpi called it; and "pure, free from adulterant." Cinder being associated with mercury and meaning slag or dross sort of strengthened that last one. Regarding the payoff, I was thinking more along the lines of the text continually suggesting the story might end before the final return.

Thanks, man. That's really helpful. I would recommend this: by name alone, Caudecus points to mercury for many reasons. (1) it's the name of mercury's staff (2) he's poisoning the Maer with lead (3) he's the catalyst for Kvothe's enlightenment in book 2.

Does that make him mercury? Not necessarily, but it does beg some questions: (1) is quicksilver divided up? If so, we'll have to start looking for the images rather than associating it with one person. Denna fits just as easily as Cinder, seeing that the point of quicksilver is to start each stage of the process. I like cinder, but I don't know what to do with Caudecus.

Thistle, what's up with the alchemy? I willingly confess my ignorance of these subjects, but would you be so kind as to point me in a direction where I can learn something about this? You guys seem pretty convincing about there being a whole alchemical element to it that I've ignored.

If you've read Harry Potter, then the easy example is Hermione (hermes) granger & Ron Bilthius (sulfur) Weasley work on Harry to refine him from a no-name orphan (lead) into the savior of the world (gold). Another is Romeo & Juliet Act 1: Two families fighting. R meets J, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet". Begin the torturous prcess of loving a capulet. Act 2: They fall in love. They learn about one another. They get washed of their prejudice. Add light, snow, rain, etc. Act 3: They die. Blood everywhere. BUT! the city is united in a golden state of peace. Also Cinderella, Tale of Two Cities, Hunger Games, Dante. et. al. into infinity.

Pat's bio mentions dabbling with alchemy. Simmon's uncharacteristically harsh on him about knowing nothing about alchemy. And theoretically the final confrontation would involve the hero at the center of a collision between mercury (sa: Cinder) and sulfur, consistently associated with the Amyr.

I still like this the best. I'm interested at where the other imagery comes into play. For instance, I noticed he said at the beginning of book 2 "I might compare them to crows on a fence or something" crows/jackdaws being the main image of nigreddo. We're at the start of the albedo, and they escort him out of purification into enlightenment where he learns a whole lotta shiz about the world.

lanceschaubert, you have one awesome blog.

It's nice to see the alchemy link in the background.

Thanks, ShanRawr. If you get interested in the fantasy side of things on the blog, I posted my map here and am looking for beta testers for my novel when I finish this summer.

The 2nd half did kind of drop off for me, mainly because I was gripped by the Severen/Maer storyline and so while reading it I felt the bandits/Felurian/Adem stuff went on too long since I was anxious to get back to Severen. Then after all the delays the return was all-too-short.

My wife felt the same way, so you'll get no stones from me.

--Someone asked earlier why Felurian's speech didn't use capital letters:

I think this has something to do with showing her Faeness. Let's see if I can explain my viewpoint. Um. The waking world (as opposed to the sleeping world, Faerie) uses certain rules to establish structure and order. One way this is done is through the use of capital letters at the beginning of sentences. Fae has a different structure, so the use of capital letters doesn't fit. It's like the house that Iax/Jax "unfolded"--things fit together differently. As the culture/mindset goes, so does the language. Does this make sense? Hard for me to express how I interpreted that :-)

--Master Ash/Master Elm/Cinder:

If Bredon is Denna's patron and thus Master Ash, then the wolf and owl imagery associated with him thus far are interesting and fit into the ash mythos, as well. Odin is accompanied by two wolves (named Geri and Freki [meaning: "greedy, ravenous"]), and hung himself willingly on the World Tree, Yggdrassil (thought to be an ash); The owl was a companion to Athena, goddess of knowledge (among many other things), and thus a symbol of knowledge in its own right. To take this a bit further, after hanging for nine nights, Odin gained the runes, and thus knowledge and power. Runes = naming = power. Sygaldry.

As to the first, I think it's just as much to get us to pay less attention to the sentences and more attention to the verse. Any time I see an author do that, I immediately think "poetry." In poems, punctation matters for thought, but the rhythm comes first. Here's a short analysis of Felurian's Metre for you poets out there.

As for the second, I LOVE this because Odin's one of my favorites.

PS: I just posted a little bit on Kvothe's Sex Life. I run a twitter for NOTW with an Atheist & a Christian and one of them asked me what I do with all the sex in the books as a Christian. This post resulted. What's more important for our purposes is the Albedo nugget down in the middle. For the sake of space, I won't copy and paste it, but it starts with "How was Kvothe able to name Felurian?" and ends with "Elodin's jealousy of the shaed."

[lanceschaubert]

Also, (hehe) I'm almost done with AGOT in ASOIAF so hopefully I'll be able to check out the other discussions... four books from now.

[Rhaegar's Son]

As to the first, I think it's just as much to get us to pay less attention to the sentences and more attention to the verse. Any time I see an author do that, I immediately think "poetry." In poems, punctation matters for thought, but the rhythm comes first. Here's a short analysis of Felurian's Metre for you poets out there.

I certainly appreciate your (and prior posters') thoughts on the lack of capitalization. That said, I settled for perhaps a simpler explanation for a couple reasons. First, as to this choice being made to indicate Fae speech, I discount the idea because of others whose dialogue we see with proper caps. Second, I don't entirely see a how it would be necessary (or wise) to make this choice in order to draw more attention to the verse. On the contrary, given the same choice as a writer (assuming it was only for this purpose), I would make sure to keep all proper punctuation; let the verse speak for itself. Drawing attention to one's hard work seems a touch tawdry, imho.

While reading, I thought Kvothe clarified the reasoning behind this choice: "Her voice was odd to my ear. It had no rough edges to it at all. It was all quiet smoothness, like a piece of perfectly polished glass. Despite its odd softness, Felurian's voice ran down my spine, making me feel..." He goes on over the next page to comment on its nature every time she speaks.

[Merihathor]

...As to the first, I think it's just as much to get us to pay less attention to the sentences and more attention to the verse. Any time I see an author do that, I immediately think "poetry." In poems, punctation matters for thought, but the rhythm comes first. Here's a short analysis of Felurian's Metre for you poets out there.

That could very well be Rothfuss' intention, and I can see why you'd say this. To continue the discussion, I do really like Rhaegar's Son's thought (quoted below), as it seems to fit; no capital letters might be a way to illustrate the smoothness of her voice:

While reading, I thought Kvothe clarified the reasoning behind this choice: "Her voice was odd to my ear. It had no rough edges to it at all. It was all quiet smoothness, like a piece of perfectly polished glass. Despite its odd softness, Felurian's voice ran down my spine, making me feel..." He goes on over the next page to comment on its nature every time she speaks.

I had to comment on this, as well:

As for the second, I LOVE this because Odin's one of my favorites...

He's one of mine, as well. Very much so. Incidentally, Wednesday (Wodnesdaeg/Wednesdei--Odin's day) was called "dies Mercurii" on the Roman calender. Given that Odin was seen as the Germanic equivalent to Mercury, the day was rechristened for those of Nordic/Germanic bent. Interesting, n'est-ce pas?

[polishgenius]

I found another continuity error in the book, btw. Do these errors bother anyone else?

I haven't even noticed them, but as a massive fan of Malazan, I'm somewhat immune to being bothered by continuity errors.

[Wras]

3. Maer decides (it's pretty much deus ex machina and not clear why) to fund Kvothe's education at the university

The Bursar hasn't acted strictly honestly, but he's acting to make more money for the university. Kvothe hasn't acted strictly honestly, but the Maer is very very rich and in fairness owes Kvothe more than he has hitherto given him.

I wouldn't call that deus ex machina.

[Gaston de Foix]

:blushing:

I wouldn't call that deus ex machina.

fair enough, it's a plot contrivance which feels a bit obvious.

[Who's on Third]

Chopping up your quote here...

There you have it. If the wind picking the name isn't enough to convince us of its significance, I don't think anything is.

The Cthaeh's words take on an even more ominous significance when read in this light:

Because Kvothe did "catch wind of him," in a very literal sense. My conviction grows stronger: Master Ash is Cinder.

EDIT again: Just look at this:

Doesn't Kvothe even seem to be edging toward "Ferule" here?

Damn, didn't realize.

Sooo... fight to the death?

I agree, Master Ash is Cinder. Look at this:

"Just tell me when I hit one you like . . . Federick the Flippant. Frank. Feran. Forue. Fordale. . . ."

Right after this, leaf in the mouth.

[Gaston de Foix]

Chopping up your quote here...

I agree, Master Ash is Cinder. Look at this:

"Just tell me when I hit one you like . . . Federick the Flippant. Frank. Feran. Forue. Fordale. . . ."

Right after this, leaf in the mouth.

eh that's quite ingenious. But Master Ash isn't Cinder. Why can I be so cocksure? Well look at the Ctaeth's words upthread. Kvothe has met Cinder exactly twice in his lifetime so far. Bredon many more times than that. Master Ash= Bredon

Bredon is not Cinder.

There is a connection between them however...

[alekhia]

So, I keep going back and forth between whether i think Master Ash = Bredon, or Master Ash = Cinder. I think both are plausible, and which ever one isn't Master Ash was set up to be a red herring.

Bredon seemingly has no purpose to the story other than to explain Vintish culture to Kvothe. However, he is too prominent of a character, and has rather odd and unsettling characteristics. I think that is why everyone is trying to give him a greater purpose to the story line.

I'm not sure this has been mentioned before, but what if his purpose is not to end up as Master Ash, but rather, the brains behind the succession plot for the Vintish throne.

There is definitely a plot underway to bump off people in line for the throne of Vintas. In both NotW and WMF there are at least two (i think three), instances of Vintish nobility tragically losing their lives, resulting in Ambrose moving up the succession line. We know from NotW that both Maer Alverson and Meluan Lackless are also in line. So bumping off the Maer and making it look like a gradual worsening of a disease he's fought for a long time would be a good way to get rid of him without anyone noticing.

However, for that to be the case, one of three things would have to be true.

1. The Maer really was sick for a long time, and Caudicus finally managed to cure him recently, only to have someone show up shortly after and bribe, threaten, or otherwise coerce him into poisoning the guy who he's been helping for so long.

2. Caudicus was always keeping him sick, but recently he decided (for whatever reason) to make it worse and move toward making it fatal. There's no actual evidence for this. Nothing indicates that he was actually planning on killing Alveron, and it seems needlessly complex, but it would fit.

3. Someone is playing a VERY long game with the succession in Vintas. To have put Caudicus in place that long ago? If he was a plant working toward the Maer's death for all this time, trying to make it look subtle, that would be nuts. There are probably 1000 quicker, simpler ways for a good arcanist to kill someone and make it seem natural or accidental.

Someone is going for a very beautiful game of Tak with the entire kingdom of Vintas. And after all, who would want to win anything other than a beautiful game?

[Slick Mongoose]

I think 1. is the most likely. We know that bribery/blackmail is Ambrose's M.O.

[AzureOwl]

Felurian pretty much states she existed before the faen realm in chapter 102 when she tells the story of the namers, shapers, and the moon getting stolen. At least that was my interpretation since she talked of eating fruit from the silver tree in Murella when there was just one world. I doubt she was the only one.

The way I interpreted Felurian’s story was that before the War there was a people who were neither human nor fae, but something else with an innate knowledge about the names of things, and that she was one of this people. Then the war came and some people became humans and stayed in the mortal realm, some became fae and stayed in Faerie and some became something else. Felurian for example was one of this original people before the shapers appeared and before the War, but she was a Fae by the end of it.

Who or what caused the fundamental change in the nature of this people, I can’t imagine. Does it have to do with geography? Was it deliberate or accidental? Was it voluntary or imposed? Did it happened all at once or did the differences evolve over time?

Regarding your first comment your talking about famous martial art actors as in people who portray fantasies! Try paying attention to actual combat sports you might notice that they all have weight classes this is not to protect larger fighters. When it comes to real life fighting, size matters in fact it matters allot.

There’s a concept in TvTropes that you might find useful. Reality is Unrealistic. When most people think about martial arts and combat they don’t think about actual combat sports, they think about what they’ve seen in movies and TV shows. This tends to be highly irritating to people familiar with the real deal.

As for the specific case of the Adem, I thought the point they were hammering was that their skill was so great that it made up for the difference in size and strength, within certain limits.

Not the same. The Adem are not an isolated island tribe.

But they are an isolated population. And by the looks of them a very inbred one.

Atur has an Emperor, so Kvothe-Kingkiller doesn't work. I think the King of Vint is the most likely suspect still, because at this point introducing a new King from one of the small Kingdoms would be a lot of work.

What about the High King of Modeg, who I believe gets mentioned a lot in the story.

[Who's on Third]

eh that's quite ingenious. But Master Ash isn't Cinder. Why can I be so cocksure? Well look at the Ctaeth's words upthread. Kvothe has met Cinder exactly twice in his lifetime so far. Bredon many more times than that. Master Ash= Bredon

Bredon is not Cinder.

There is a connection between them however...

I agree, Bredon is not Cinder. That does not prove that Cinder is not Master Ash. Elements that stray toward Bredon being Master Ash include: 1. the description of his clothing as being charcoal(?) and ash colored; 2. he has a cane; 3. he seems to be in the city when Denna is there, and gone when she is gone; 4. he mentions he is learning to dance, and Denna mentions that Master Ash is a dancer. Are there any others?

Elements in the story in favor of Cinder being Master Ash are cited above by wrathofdog with my small addition. Also, the presence of Master Ash at the wedding in NOTW, questioning Denna as to whether all of the guests are present. There are at least two ways to look at this, depending upon whom you believe is Master Ash. The first is the most obvious - it is Cinder, verifying that all of the targets have arrived to destroy them. The second is a bit of a stretch, but if Bredon is an Amyr - which has been posited - he could be monitoring the Chandrian? Do the Chandrian have servants? You'd have to come up with some explanation for Bredon's presence at the wedding in NOTW as Master Ash. He would also have to have been able to predict the movements of the Chandrian.

[Who's on Third]

My vote is 3.

[wrathofdog]

Chopping up your quote here...

I agree, Master Ash is Cinder. Look at this:

"Just tell me when I hit one you like . . . Federick the Flippant. Frank. Feran. Forue. Fordale. . . ."

Right after this, leaf in the mouth.

Yeah, that was my thought as well. If the wind hadn't blown the ash leaf into his mouth, I bet he would have said "Ferule" within the next 5 tries.

eh that's quite ingenious. But Master Ash isn't Cinder. Why can I be so cocksure? Well look at the Ctaeth's words upthread. Kvothe has met Cinder exactly twice in his lifetime so far. Bredon many more times than that. Master Ash= Bredon

Bredon is not Cinder.

There is a connection between them however...

Grinachu, I think you're falling for Rothfuss' red herring here. I agree that Bredon is not Cinder, but the evidence for Bredon = Master Ash is much weaker than the evidence for Ash = Cinder.

The only clues we have that indicate that Bredon is Ash are that he:

A: is a noble (Ash is a noble too)

B: carries a cane (Ash beats Denna with a cane)

C: has recently taken up dancing (Ash is a "surprisingly good dancer")

D: is resident at the Maer's Court (Denna thinks that Ash is also a member of the court)

and E: that mustache-twirling thing about only wanting to win a beautiful game.

These are all obvious clues; notice how practically everyone in these threads leaps to the assumption that Bredon is Ash. But obvious clues aren't Rothfuss' style. See "It's worth my life to make my wife not tally a lot less." Almost no one noticed that. Rothfuss likes subtle plays on words, clues that you'd practically never notice except on a re-read, especially where Kvothe the ascending Namer is concerned.

The titular wind giving Kvothe the idea to call Denna's patron "Master Ash," as he gropes closer to his true name of Ferule (the rod of abuse) is a dead giveaway. I don't know why, but Denna is definitely under the patronage of one of the Chandrian.

[Grack21]

Darth Vader is Master Ash and Cinder and Bredon and your dad.

Seriously though, anyone else think the "princess" he refers to rescuing might be Auri? Or have I been staying up to late again.

[Merihathor]

Who or what caused the fundamental change in the nature of this people, I can’t imagine. Does it have to do with geography? Was it deliberate or accidental? Was it voluntary or imposed? Did it happened all at once or did the differences evolve over time?

My guess is the who was (is, maybe?) someone who was powerful enough to change the name of those people. I have no idea if this is even feasible, since all we've seen is naming of people/objects/forces of nature. My assumption is that someone had to be powerful enough to name/shape Faerie, so someone was probably powerful enough to rename a people. Just a thought, in any case.

[thistlepong]

Couple things:

Seriously though, anyone else think the "princess" he refers to rescuing might be Auri? Or have I been staying up to late again.

re: "The truth about princess Ariel" - absolutely, dozens of pages ago

re: "Stolen princesses from sleeping barrow kings" - not necessarily

If they're the same, no.

My guess is the who was (is, maybe?) someone who was powerful enough to change the name of those people. I have no idea if this is even feasible, since all we've seen is naming of people/objects/forces of nature. My assumption is that someone had to be powerful enough to name/shape Faerie, so someone was probably powerful enough to rename a people. Just a thought, in any case.

It's feasible. Tehlu is not just saying "you're no longer Saul," in Trapis's story, he's renaming Wereth and the others.

On the other hand, I doubt that's the explanation for the differences between Faen and the Corners. The shapers created Faen so they could do their work. The inhabitants shed a good portion of their power when they leave; and folks like Kvothe display a greater felicity with magics while there. It's the place. Not the people.

[Grack21]

Couple things:

re: "The truth about princess Ariel" - absolutely, dozens of pages ago

re: "Stolen princesses from sleeping barrow kings" - not necessarily

If they're the same, no.

Ah yes, sorry. I'm feeling lazy and irritable today.