[AdwD Spoilers] "Septa" Lemore

[Lord Varys]

Couldn't Lemore be that female Blackfyre we are all looking for? I'm not aiming at Maelys's little daughter, but possible the granddaughter of his sister or even farther removed from the main branch. We should assume that the Blackfyres did not continue that incest practice all that long. Daemon had seven sons but I doubt he had as much daughters, and it's still not confirmed that any of these daughters married a brother.

Lemore does not look like a Blackfyre/Targaryen, but she does not have to if that's the case.

[The Red Keep]

I think that Lemore is not Lyanna. In the world of Westeros, where the dead don't stay dead, I really do think that Lyanna, like Ned, is actually for reals dead. However, at the risk of flogging a dead horse, after all the mentions of Ashara Dayne and the new revelation of a (possibly) stillborn daughter being born to her, I really think that Lemore = Ashara. My fervent crackpot hope is that L+N = A while R+L = J, but that seems way too unlikely to me...

[corbon]

Grasping at straws, I think. Almost none of the other details match, either, and Ashara's eyes are distinctly purple (even more so than YG's) so there would be no mistaking it. Tyrion spends weeks on the boat with her; it's impossible that he'd avoid looking her in the eyes the entire time.

Actually almost all of the other details match.

Hair colour.

Age.

Educated background.

Religious vocation (see below).

Attractiveness.

Flirtatiousness.

Stretchmarks.

Edit: Whoops, missed 'swimmer'.

And the eyes are a dead giveaway - that Tyrion does not mention them. As others have said, Tyrion always gives us detailed descriptions, and the only exceptions are when it is another character GRRM is trying to hide.

Lemore could be someone significant, but I'd frankly be happier if she wasn't. Maybe she's just a Septa who had an affair or some other scandal, faced expulsion and was therefore easy to hire for a multiple-decade job?

We haven't really heard what happens to dishonoured highborn young ladies outside the North.

You know what happened in our world, in the analogous cultures? They joined nunneries (not necessarily by choice).

Septa training fits Ashara perfectly. She was a highborn young woman who was dishonoured and birthed a (stillborn) child out of wedlock. She is no longer a decent candidate for a good marriage and too well born, of a particularly ancient and noble family, to consider being married off to a wealthy merchant or similar, which means a religious vocation is her only life-choice going forward. She had time to start such a vocation (or the training for it) before she 'suicided', and it makes the perfect cover after she 'suicides'.

Slam dunk!

[Recently]

I like the Lemore = Ashara theory as well. It fits somewhat nicely. The manner of Ashara's "death" by jumping off a cliff is very convenient; no recover of the body is mentioned or anything to that nature to verify her death.

Plus i'd like to see Barristan's reaction when he sees her if she really is Ashara :o.

[Ygritte]

I like the Lemore = Ashara theory as well. It fits somewhat nicely. The manner of Ashara's "death" by jumping off a cliff is very convenient; no recover of the body is mentioned or anything to that nature to verify her death.

Plus i'd like to see Barristan's reaction when he sees her if she really is Ashara :o.

And I like the idea mentioned earlier, where Barristan goes over to Aegon's side and is Dany's betrayal for love.

[Auska]

And the eyes are a dead giveaway - that Tyrion does not mention them. As others have said, Tyrion always gives us detailed descriptions, and the only exceptions are when it is another character GRRM is trying to hide.

Not buying it, sorry. It would be an excessively cheap trick, although on re-read Tyrion explicitly states that he's specifically not going to think about her secrets. On the other hand, he also states that Lemore would only be collateral damage if the stone men got her. (Although yet later he states that he can't figure out who Lemore is, unlike his other shipmates, nor what her motivation is.)

An older couple with a Rhoynish cast to their features stood close beside the tiller' date=' whilst a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes.

[/quote']

No reaction from Tyrion.

Of course, maybe she just has contacts on. They're so expensive they couldn't get another pair for YG.

Perhaps! However, Connington also knew Rhaegar, so there's a reasonable probability he'd seen Ashara – a lady in waiting – at some point. Connington's internal monologue about Lemore's task being just teaching YG about the faith is ambiguous; it could mean she was specifically brought in for that task, or that out of their group, she was chosen for that task.

It's highly inconclusive and Occam rules.

[Auska]

And I like the idea mentioned earlier, where Barristan goes over to Aegon's side and is Dany's betrayal for love.

This was a good point, I'll grant it. Dany seems to count either two or three betrayals already having occurred, but this could certainly be one.

[Ygritte]

Perhaps! However, Connington also knew Rhaegar, so there's a reasonable probability he'd seen Ashara – a lady in waiting – at some point. Connington's internal monologue about Lemore's task being just teaching YG about the faith is ambiguous; it could mean she was specifically brought in for that task, or that out of their group, she was chosen for that task.

It's highly inconclusive and Occam rules.

I'm not sure Connington was checking out the women at court. ;)

ETA: And I'm mostly just being silly; it does throw a wrench into the theory. Unless Connington is in on it.

[Songstress]

Perhaps! However, Connington also knew Rhaegar, so there's a reasonable probability he'd seen Ashara – a lady in waiting – at some point. Connington's internal monologue about Lemore's task being just teaching YG about the faith is ambiguous; it could mean she was specifically brought in for that task, or that out of their group, she was chosen for that task.

It's highly inconclusive and Occam rules.

Connington danced with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal:

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

Of course he'd know her... but you're right, it's inconclusive. And I personally lean against Lemore = Ashara, although if she is she could likely clear a few things up regarding her past association with the Starks and who Jon's mom really is.

[Ygritte]

Connington danced with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal

You're right, I forgot that. So if she is Ashara, unless she has drastically altered her looks beyond what normal aging would do, then Connington would probably have to be in on it.

[darrylzero]

Actually almost all of the other details match.

Hair colour.

Age.

Educated background.

Religious vocation (see below).

Attractiveness.

Flirtatiousness.

Stretchmarks.

Edit: Whoops, missed 'swimmer'.

I don't know about age. According to the wiki, Ned would turn 38 in the year 301, if he were still alive. When Tyrion meets Lemore (probably in 300, right?), he puts her at past 40 without second-guessing himself for a second, even though he's horny as all get out. I figure that means she's 43 minimum. Would Ashara really still be single at 23 during the tournament at Harrenhall? Maybe, I guess, but I'd imagine she's more like Ned's age or even a little younger. Of course, Tyrion could be wrong about her age, so I'm not trying to claim this as evidence that it's not her, but I wouldn't call age a perfect match either.

We haven't really heard what happens to dishonoured highborn young ladies outside the North.

You know what happened in our world, in the analogous cultures? They joined nunneries (not necessarily by choice).

Septa training fits Ashara perfectly. She was a highborn young woman who was dishonoured and birthed a (stillborn) child out of wedlock. She is no longer a decent candidate for a good marriage and too well born, of a particularly ancient and noble family, to consider being married off to a wealthy merchant or similar, which means a religious vocation is her only life-choice going forward. She had time to start such a vocation (or the training for it) before she 'suicided', and it makes the perfect cover after she 'suicides'.

Slam dunk!

Wouldn't there be some indication that she joined a nunnery before her suicide? Would she still be at Starfall when Ned drops by after the Tower of Joy? This doesn't feel quite right either. Again, not insurmountable by any stretch of the imagination, but I wouldn't say slam dunk, myself.

[Marvin]

Not sure if it has been mentioned yet but the fact that Lemore likes swimming may be significant here. If Ashara was a good swimmer it would have been easier to fake a death by drowning.

Whoever Lemore is she is definitely a noblewoman. A peasant wouldn't have the learning to educate a prince. The evidence isn't conclusive at this point but if she is somebody we have heard about then Ashara is the best candidate. And she has been mentioned too often to not pop up at some point.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I figure that means she's 43 minimum. Would Ashara really still be single at 23 during the tournament at Harrenhall? Maybe, I guess, but I'd imagine she's more like Ned's age or even a little younger. Of course, Tyrion could be wrong about her age, so I'm not trying to claim this as evidence that it's not her, but I wouldn't call age a perfect match either.

Ashara was 16 in Harrenhal, IIRC, which would mean Lemore is definitely too old. Of course, Tyrion could be wrong about her age, but I rather doubt it.

[corbon]

I don't know about age. According to the wiki, Ned would turn 38 in the year 301, if he were still alive. When Tyrion meets Lemore (probably in 300, right?), he puts her at past 40 without second-guessing himself for a second, even though he's horny as all get out. I figure that means she's 43 minimum. Would Ashara really still be single at 23 during the tournament at Harrenhall? Maybe, I guess, but I'd imagine she's more like Ned's age or even a little younger. Of course, Tyrion could be wrong about her age, so I'm not trying to claim this as evidence that it's not her, but I wouldn't call age a perfect match either.

Well, I'd give a +/- 3-5 years to that age assessment. That can be a very tough age to tell, with a great deal of variation. Tyrion might not bother to second guess himself, but its not exactly an important point to him and he could easily be wrong.

And if Ashara is hanging out with Brandon, rather than Ned, at Harrenhal, then she is probably 2-3 years at least older than Ned.

And yes, during a long period of peace it is not quite so imperative to marry of young for alliances etc. There is no reason why Ashara could not be early 20s and unmarried still, especially if the Daynes are a bit picky due to their storied lineage.

So I think if Ashara is still alive her age would have to be estimated at around 38-43 (at least of an age with Ned, probably slightly older, but not so much that she is approaching 'old maid' status at Harrenhal tourney.

I think that is exactly right for Tyrion's guessing - and remember, its only a guess.

Wouldn't there be some indication that she joined a nunnery before her suicide?

Why?

What POV have we had that would know and say - maybe Barristan, but GRRM doesn't make these things quite that obvious. He provides plenty of clues, but not smack you across the face clues like that would be (or Lemore have violet eyes would be).

Yeah, slam dunk doesn't mean 100% certain, it means (or I meant it as) crowning piece of data that provides the big flourish. Sorry for the misuse.

Not buying it, sorry. It would be an excessively cheap trick, although on re-read Tyrion explicitly states that he's specifically not going to think about her secrets.

Excessively cheap or not, it is a trick GRRM has used before in this series.

Perhaps! However, Connington also knew Rhaegar, so there's a reasonable probability he'd seen Ashara – a lady in waiting – at some point. Connington's internal monologue about Lemore's task being just teaching YG about the faith is ambiguous; it could mean she was specifically brought in for that task, or that out of their group, she was chosen for that task.

Whatever. If they've been playing roles, fully 'submerged', for 10-15 years or so then his internal monologue probably gives away no more clues than his external, unless he consciously switches mindsets.

And given Connington's background, orientation and apparent attitude to a variety of women he probably wouldn't value Ashara greatly beyond specific uses anyway.

It's highly inconclusive and Occam rules.

If it was conclusive, then we wouldn't be discussing it. And Occam certainly does not rule. It has its place, but this series is full and overflowing with intrigue, plots and the like. All of those break occams razor by their very nature.

If occams razor ruled then Ashara really did commit suicide but they would have found her body.

[Markus]

The only times he is circumspect is when it's a character we the readers know and GRRM wants to drop hints rather than full reveal eg. Ser Jorah. The lack of mentioning the eyes in his description almost screams out that the eyes are important and that mentioning them would shoot the load too soon.

I fail to see how Jorah's eyes are a more distinctive feature for the purpose of identifying him than the big black bear on his wool surcoat which Tyrion describes and dwells on.

Any other examples where Tyrion fails to mention a character's most distinctive feature so that we've a more difficult time to identify the character?

[Jimmo]

It makes sense that Lemore as Ashara Dayne, and that "Aegon" is her son. That was the first thought I had when I realized that Aegon was the "mummer's dragon" we know that Ashara had violet (lilac?) eyes and thus her son with the same eyes could pass for a Targaryen if he dyed his hair. That also makes in likely that "Aegon" is Ned's or Brandon's son.

[RobMRobM]

Do we know who else were Elia's ladies in waiting? Could be one of those or someone close to them. Rob

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

I think Lemore is Lyanna and Aegon is her son. As soon as we found out Young Griff is Aegon I started trying to figure out who all his friends really were. Lyanna was my first thought for Lemore. Then I thought L+R=A. As for Jon Snow's parents, I think he could either be Ashara and Ned's child or Lyanna could have had twins. Though the latter seems more likely.

It would have been difficult but Lyanna could have faked her death. Ned must be pretty upset, so its possible that he could have been tricked. I'm sure they would have the fleash stripped off of her before they started the long journey north.

As for the fact that she has a Septa's training she could have learned it from Rhaegar while on the run or as a means for survival she could have stayed at a Sept. So Lyanna is possible.

If the "Aegon" of aDwD has the right age, he is too old to be Lyannas son.

I guess "Aegons" eyes are important for Tyrion. He realizes that the boy is trained to rule. And the asks himself why Griff, whom he recognizes as a Lord of Westeros would do this. After he realizes that "Aegons" eyes are really not blue but lilac he makes the connection that he could be the "dead" son of the king.

No member of the royal family has the right age to be Lemore. That means after Tyrion noticed her eye color it was not important for him. She could be a Targ descendant from the wrong side of the sheets or something like this. It is mentioned that many whores in Lys have the Targ looks. And the Daynes have this eye color. Ashara Dayne is not important for Tyrion. Ned or Barristan would be surprised, if they met someone with her eyes. In fact Barristan mentions that Dany hat Ashara Dayne.

I think this was foreshadowing that „Aegon“ is the son of Ashara. She had the potential to give birth to a child that has the Targ eye color. It also explains why “Aegon” wasn´t with Griff after he was taken away from king landing. Whoever was behind the plot (perhaps Ashara with Varys) hat to wait if the boy kept the Targ look. In real world many babies have eyes that are lilac or violet. But they change in the first year. To be hundred percent sure they had to wait even longer.

[Markus]

... „Aegon“ is the son of Ashara. She had the potential to give birth to a child that has the Targ eye color.

She had the right eye color. But what about Aegon's fair hair? Ashara is described as dark haired and neither Ned nor Brandon seem to have had fair hair. Are we not only supposed to believe that Ashara didn't only have a living boy -- and not just a dead daughter as we're told by Selmy -- but also that somebody other than Ned or Brandon was the father?

How much misdirection on GRRM's part is reasonable to expect?

[Ser Plissken]

Lemore's personality seemed too...shall we say "flirty" for a former noble woman.

Is it Ros....? :rolleyes: