Heresy 4

[Lummel]

This is the leap I'm having trouble with, BC. Would you explain again how the Starks and Night's Watch turned on/betrayed the Children? I think you said it has something to do with the Night's King, but I lost the track of your logic somewhere...

Sam did find an account of the ranger Redwyn who took a long trip north of the Wall (all the way up to Lorn Point on the Frozen Shore, wherever that is). The account describes battles with giants, but also trading with the Children of the forest. This suggests to me that relations with the Watch and the Children were good at this point - although Sam didn't date the account for us (natch).

On a side note ('cause I can't seem to post without having at least one side note): does anyone wonder why Castle Black has such an extensive library? Thousands of works, according to Sam, including rare volumes, and stuff like ancient scrolls from Valyria. Is this just a plot-driven way for Sam to tease us with dribs and drabs of info, or is there some other reason that Castle Black is the repository for so much learning? It just seemed like a strange thing - that what is basically a military outpost at the back of beyond has so many books.

I had this exact thought when reading the "Sam tries to find maps" chapter in ACOK. Hmmmmmm

One simple answer is that there has been a continous presence of literate people there for a long time and they have just accumilated lots of stuff, but then we'd expect to find similarly big libraries in some of the well established castles maybe and I don't think there is evidence of that.

Another point is that you have a lot of political exiles and some of those, political high flyers like Bloodraven and the like may well have brought interesting books with them.

Then you have Septons like the one who composed the chronicle of the Black Centaur who have nothing much to do except write or drink (like the present incumbant of the post).

But its possible that research and military inteligence was always meant to be one of the tasks undertaken at Castle Black I suppose.

[kissdbyfire]

On a side note ('cause I can't seem to post without having at least one side note): does anyone wonder why Castle Black has such an extensive library? Thousands of works, according to Sam, including rare volumes, and stuff like ancient scrolls from Valyria. Is this just a plot-driven way for Sam to tease us with dribs and drabs of info, or is there some other reason that Castle Black is the repository for so much learning? It just seemed like a strange thing - that what is basically a military outpost at the back of beyond has so many books.

And that makes me wonder... With all those books and scrolls, and with Sam spending a fair amount of time down there doing research, how is it that he didn't find of major relevance before leaving?

[kissdbyfire]

Editing not work, how he didn't find 'anything' of relevance.

[Black Crow]

On a side note ('cause I can't seem to post without having at least one side note): does anyone wonder why Castle Black has such an extensive library? Thousands of works, according to Sam, including rare volumes, and stuff like ancient scrolls from Valyria. Is this just a plot-driven way for Sam to tease us with dribs and drabs of info, or is there some other reason that Castle Black is the repository for so much learning? It just seemed like a strange thing - that what is basically a military outpost at the back of beyond has so many books.

I'd just assumed that as the Watch contracted in size all their records were concentrated along with them as they abandoned each successive castle

[Black Crow]

This is the leap I'm having trouble with, BC. Would you explain again how the Starks and Night's Watch turned on/betrayed the Children? I think you said it has something to do with the Night's King, but I lost the track of your logic somewhere...

Its actually pretty straightforward. There was a Pact...

Then the Andals arrived, conquering the southern kingdoms and at the same time slaughtering the Children and burning the weirwoods - but not in the Kingdom of the North, which was held against them.

If the North held true to the Pact the Children, who are said to have raised Moat Caillin and helped defend the Neck, should have found a refuge there, but instead they're gone, "fled" to the badlands beyond the Wall.

The suggestion I'm making is that this, together with that big battle won by the Watch and Stark of Winterfell some 3,000 years ago, and the battle celebrated in "The Night that Ended" are one and the same and that although the story as told by Ygritte is of a Wildling incursion, the fact that the survivors tried to escape through the caverns and that as we now know "Gendel's children" are the Children; for some reason the Starks and the Watch turned on the Children to drive them out of the North. I've also suggested that the Night's King business might provide the trigger for this betrayal, but that's dependent on tying him into the Andal period rather than much earlier.

[Black Crow]

And that makes me wonder... With all those books and scrolls, and with Sam spending a fair amount of time down there doing research, how is it that he didn't find of major relevance before leaving?

He told Jon what he'd found in the short time available but spent a lot of time complaining he needed much more time to comb the archives properly.

[FanTasy]

I'd just assumed that as the Watch contracted in size all their records were concentrated along with them as they abandoned each successive castle

Ow ... that made me think about the remarks about the library at Winterfell, sadly burned as a diversion when Bran was attacked.

Tyrion in AGOT noticed that the library had exceptionally rare books. Later on, I think in ACOK, is another passage that describes that old and rare books were lost. We have discussed before that the Watch may have had his origins at some other place, that there were multiple walls because in the oath of the Night Watch you vow that you are "watcher of the walls", plural.

Maybe the information Sam was looking for was not at the library at Castle Black, but in the library of Winterfell - and now lost :bawl:

ETA and some added thought. The King in the North would probably have some extended correspondence by raven ofr courier with the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. There would be copy's at the library at Winterfell. And GRRM burned it all :bang:

[Black Crow]

So I'm interested in why the Others / White walkers are suddenly active at the beginning of series? Has any thought gone into working back from the various heretical theories to try and understand why the prologue in AGOT happened?

I suppose it all depends how "sudden" their activity is. Whether or not you subscribe to the story that they are Craster's sons, the fact of the matter is that they have been visting his keep for years. And then there's that curious bit in AGoT Tyrion 3 where the term White Walkers is mentioned for the very first time and not by a Wildling but by Jeor Mormont, when he tells Tyrion that the fisherfolk near Eastwatch have reported seeing White Walkers on the shore. What's interesting about it is the low key almost off-hand way in which he tells it and that he doesn't regard this as something astonishing or terrifying in itself, its just one small piece in the intelligence jigsaw that convinces him that trouble is brewing.

[FanTasy]

Just re-read some chapters in AGOT and noticed that when in ACOK Gilly tells Sam that Craster gives away his sons, in AGOT the information that the Others feed human children to their servants is given twice.

Once in Bran IV by Old Nan to Bran: "They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

Again in Jon VII, when Jon is for the first time beyond the Wall, found Othor and Jafer and remembers the scary story's by Nan: "They fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

Ow ... and just know thought about the "hunting of maids through frozen forests", something Ramsay Bolton picked up. He has heard some stories too.

[hotweaselsoup]

Its actually pretty straightforward. There was a Pact...

Then the Andals arrived, conquering the southern kingdoms and at the same time slaughtering the Children and burning the weirwoods - but not in the Kingdom of the North, which was held against them.

If the North held true to the Pact the Children, who are said to have raised Moat Caillin and helped defend the Neck, should have found a refuge there, but instead they're gone, "fled" to the badlands beyond the Wall.

The suggestion I'm making is that this, together with that big battle won by the Watch and Stark of Winterfell some 3,000 years ago, and the battle celebrated in "The Night that Ended" are one and the same and that although the story as told by Ygritte is of a Wildling incursion, the fact that the survivors tried to escape through the caverns and that as we now know "Gendel's children" are the Children; for some reason the Starks and the Watch turned on the Children to drive them out of the North. I've also suggested that the Night's King business might provide the trigger for this betrayal, but that's dependent on tying him into the Andal period rather than much earlier.

Ah, okay - gotcha.

My understanding of Maester Luwin's assertion that the "children fled north" was that they were fleeing from south of the Neck, where the Andals were slaughtering them, to the safety of the lands north of the Neck - i.e. Stark lands - where the old gods prevailed.

To me, the children and the old gods and the old ways seem inextricably linked. It seems to me that if the Starks had driven the children from their lands so that they had to seek refuge north of the Wall, the Starks would have also given up the old gods. It's definitely a conundrum, why the children haven't been seen -- south of the Wall at least -- for thousands of years. But I'm really having trouble envisioning the Kings of Winter going all Andal and driving the children out with fire and sword, and then kneeling in front of their heart trees and cleaning the blood off those self-same swords!

And speaking of being driven, why do those wildlings keep try to invade the south? They have nothing but contempt for the kneelers and their kneeling ways, yet every few thousand years, they all get together and try to pass the Wall. Mance's horde is the most recent example, and we know from him that his efforts, at least, are because the wildlings are fleeing the Others. Well, what if all those other attempts - Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, Bael the Bard, etc. - were all also escape attempts? Is the Wall not so much about keeping the Others out, but about keeping the wildlings in? Is the land north of the Wall a giant preserve - heck, a giant prison - of some kind? Hunting grounds for the old gods, that needs to be kept well-stocked? I know, I know - total wild-ass speculation. But I get a Jurassic Park vibe from that humungous Wall. And Ygritte hates it so much...

ETA: FanTasy - we seem to be thinking some of the same thoughts! I remember also a story that Arya (Jon?) hears from old Nan, about a hero who was imprisoned in a castle by evil giants, only to escape and have his blood drunk by Others. There are definitely lots of hints that the Others hunt and eat people (or drink their blood). Maybe as long as the wildlings give them babies to eat, the Others leave the rest of them alone? Craster's example. But if they stop making sacrifice, the Others get angry (and hungry).

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The Children are reputedly the practitioners of great magic such as the shattering of the Arm of Dorne and bringing down the Hammer of the Waters, which is not at all inconsistent with the proposition that they may also have unleashed the Long Night – and perhaps also the White Walkers, to cleanse the land of men.

Just because it is not inconsistent doesn't mean it is evidence that it was so. We've never seen them do any ice magic. Ever. However, the CotF's portrayal as a society in balance with nature, respecting other life forms, is inconsistent with them unleashing the Long Winter.

Secure in their underground cities the Children could therefore expect to ride out the Winter until the renewal of the Spring.

Very unlikely. The CotF depend on photosynthesis just as much as any other life form in Westeros. Hunter-gatherers are not able to produce food surpluses on the level necessary to survive that long - agricultural societies might not be able to. They undoubtedly took very heavy losses during the Long Winter.

However, having unleashed whatever Bloodraven shows to Bran in the far north, instead of controlling it, they then had to contain it by building the Wall.

Not very smart of them.

The heretical view that the Children and their various brethren are the Others does not require them to be the enemy.

Well, yeah it does. The others (WW and wights) killed an awful lot of men. The Long Winter killed an awful lot more. All because the First Men cut down some weirwoods without understanding the trees were special. It doesn't make the Others evil, but it makes them the enemy. If the CotF unleashed them, so are they.

What’s not at issue is that the Pact between them and the First Men has been broken, first by the Andal invasion of the south and then, as we’ve been discussing here, by their apparent betrayal and defeat by the Watch (who are thus no longer true) and Stark of Winterfell in the North, forcing them into exile beyond the Wall.

This is very much at issue. I see no betrayal of the CotF by the First Men. Every scenario you propose to support your claim has a much simpler and more likely explanation. You've used multiple guesses and "what if" propositions piled on top of each other to reach that conclusion.

As a direct result of this betrayal their numbers are in decline and their power to sustain the magic of the Wall is failing.

Again, there is no evidence the CotF were ever driven out of the region between the Neck and the Wall. For all we know they are still there, or fled north of the Wall simply to get further away from the Andals. We still don't know the nature of their magical involvement with the Wall, and there is no sign the magic of the Wall is failing.

Against that back-story therefore, what the heresy proposes is that instead of requiring the aid and advice of the Children to defeat the Others, the Starks must aid them in order to repair the damage done by that earlier betrayal and so sustain the Wall. This in turn requires that they must also defeat the forces of Light and Fire; Mel and the followers of R’hllor who having correctly identified Bloodraven and the Children as the Others, are actually unwittingly seeking to weaken and ultimately destroy mankind’s last best hope of containing that horror unleashed in the north so long ago and perhaps awakened again by the comet.

The only ways to "repair" the "damage" would be to either help the CotF breed (Willas Tyrell or Cercei could act as consultants), or take over for them (and Bran is the only person who could do that).

I would give you lots of points for originality and creativity, but none for soundness of your argument on this. There's one unsupported leap after another all through your chain of reasoning, and the results are contradicted by the text. Like it or not, the CotF show every sign of being opposed to the Others. Like it or not, the original story of the Pact makes a lot more sense then your "heresy".

[FanTasy]

Is the Wall not so much about keeping the Others out, but about keeping the wildlings in? Is the land north of the Wall a giant preserve - heck, a giant prison - of some kind? Hunting grounds for the old gods, that needs to be kept well-stocked? I know, I know - total wild-ass speculation. But I get a Jurassic Park vibe from that humungous Wall. And Ygritte hates it so much...

Nice thinking about the lands beyond the Wall as a feeding ground and that the Wall is seen as a means to stop wildlings from entering the lands south of the Wall.

The Night's Watch core business before Jon became Lord Commander seemed to be to throw back enemies attacking the Wall (two blasts for enemies attacking the gate).

At two blasts the wildlings were expected to show up while - interestingly - the signal for the Others showing up was a different signal (three blasts of the horn).

[Ibbison from Ibben]

And speaking of being driven, why do those wildlings keep try to invade the south? They have nothing but contempt for the kneelers and their kneeling ways, yet every few thousand years, they all get together and try to pass the Wall. Mance's horde is the most recent example, and we know from him that his efforts, at least, are because the wildlings are fleeing the Others. Well, what if all those other attempts - Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, Bael the Bard, etc. - were all also escape attempts?

The other attempts seem to be characterized as raids of various sizes. The wildings just want to steal stuff. Wilding society is based on the concept that Might Makes Right. It it not only "legal" but "proper" for the strong to take from the weak. They hate the Wall because it allows "weaklings" they consider just and proper targets for their raids to protect themselves.

[slayer420]

Very unlikely. The CotF depend on photosynthesis just as much as any other life form in Westeros. Hunter-gatherers are not able to produce food surpluses on the level necessary to survive that long - agricultural societies might not be able to. They undoubtedly took very heavy losses during the Long Winter.

Your forgeting there skinchangers. They could just warg a deer make it run in there cave and diner is served.

[History of Westeros]

I think it would help if people stopped assuming that the CotF are a unified faction. It would be a bit silly for *an entire race* to agree on policy, war, which magical natural disaster to unleash, etc.

(null)

[hotweaselsoup]

I'd just assumed that as the Watch contracted in size all their records were concentrated along with them as they abandoned each successive castle

Yeah, that's probably it. That or Lummel's thoughts that the books have just accumulated there over the centuries, as literate folk have brought them along when they took the black. Still - it is an awful lot of books, on some pretty rarified subject matter. Any thoughts that maybe some of the more "heretical" stuff may have been hidden there? Lets hope that red lot sticks to burning people, and doesn't go full evil and start burning books :blink:

[kissdbyfire]

Your forgeting there skinchangers. They could just warg a deer make it run in there cave and diner is served.

I think in a Long Winter type event there wouldn't be deer left either, as they also depended on plants, algae, etc to do photosynthesis for them to feed...

[kissdbyfire]

I think it would help if people stopped assuming that the CotF are a unified faction. It would be a bit silly for *an entire race* to agree on policy, war, which magical natural disaster to unleash, etc.

Maybe, but there's been no reference, hint or suggestion that they aren't... On the contrary, Bran observes how different their behaviour in general is to human behaviour. Balance.

[mrazny]

Again, there is no evidence the CotF were ever driven out of the region between the Neck and the Wall. For all we know they are still there, or fled north of the Wall simply to get further away from the Andals. We still don't know the nature of their magical involvement with the Wall, and there is no sign the magic of the Wall is failing.

I don't believe they're "still there" and just better at hiding for sure. And the fact that they aren't there is still odd. I'm not saying I'm making the same jumps as Black Crow, but there isn't just some simple obvious explanation for why the children aren't there. Leaf descriptions came across much more like that cave is their home and she specifically left that to travel south (again whether south of the wall or not isn't specific).

I'm not sure why the children aren't in the North anymore or when that split was official. Even when it's mentioned that no one's seen the children for centuries, it didn't feel like a context of, well back then we knew the children were over here in this forest. They seem to have been noticeably gone for a great while, though whether that coincided with Aegon's landing might have been the case.

There are other explanations that don't involve the First Men "betraying" the children, but those are also explanations that wouldn't be suported by text. There simply is no text for the children post Andal invasion pre today. We only have a southron account from Catelyn that the Andals were repelled from their conquest efforts by the children and First Men at the neck, their only defeat amongst the seven kingdoms.

As far as my plausible path that would basically null any oddity to the children's migration, this is a possible sequence:

Besides a general end to the seige, eventually the Andals and First Men found peace between each other and began to trade most likely. If the Maesters were a presence before the Andals invasion instead of after, they would've most likely supported peace and trade as good for the realm.

(my personal take is there simply was not any Stark-southern pairing before Catelyn. I felt weight behind the passage that the Maester before Luwin convinced Rickard that Brandon be betrothed to Catelyn, and Eddard fostered under an Arryn (defintely could be something to the Arryn fostering as well). I think this was the first time a Stark was so intermingled with the south. I'll comb more text, but it's possible that there were no significant stories of Starks south of the Neck, possibly to the point of the Knight of the Laughing Tree being the first significant Southern traveles prominent Starks have made)

The Northern houses with less power and nearer to the neck most likely arranged marriages with Andals for status and what have you, and the traditions of the Andals slowly propagated north. As more and more Andals were present in the North, the children decided it best to journey farther away from the propagators of their genocide.

Again, none of this is actually textually supported.

When are where the Children have been a presence is the least definitively documented, and really are the oddest absences.

WHY did the Last Hero have to journey far to find children that supposedly lived in the forests everywhere nearby his westeros home? We have Children consistently either conveniently placed or inconveniently placed, like they were to go to plot hole filler for the legend makers.

[hotweaselsoup]

The other attempts seem to be characterized as raids of various sizes. The wildings just want to steal stuff. Wilding society is based on the concept that Might Makes Right. It it not only "legal" but "proper" for the strong to take from the weak. They hate the Wall because it allows "weaklings" they consider just and proper targets for their raids to protect themselves.

Unifying all those clans into one force seems a bit more than just an outsized raid. You've seen how disorganized and autonomous the free folk are - trying to get them to function as one is like trying to herd cats. Mance took years getting the wildlings together, so I'd have to assume the other Kings-Beyond-the-Wall went through some similar process to unify their wildling hordes. That's an awful lot of work for a raid.

Come to think of it, the wildlings are so proudly independent, why would they ever even want a King? Sure, they choose him - but why?

They hate the Wall because it allows "weaklings" they consider just and proper targets for their raids to protect themselves.

Hmm - interesting. I don't remember any of the wildlings saying that about the Wall, but I might have missed it in the text. Do you remember where it was?