How Should Theon Be Judged? (Spoilers)

[Drowsey Dragon]

Makes me wonder why Robert DIDN'T take his head.

Seems like in ASOIAF everyone who rebels gets punished mercilessly.

Robert was quick to pardon anyone who would swear fealty, unless they were targs. Ser Barristan fo example fought against Robert at the Trident, yet he made him the captain of his kings guard. Your right though, Roberts approach seems to be unique in ASOIAF.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Makes me wonder why Robert DIDN'T take his head.

Seems like in ASOIAF everyone who rebels gets punished mercilessly.

Eh, they would have pardoned Robb if he had bent the knee before ASOS. Tywin, a very ruthless brutal man, even tells Joffrey in that book "when your enemies defy you, serve them steel and fire. But when they go to their knees, you must help them back up."

[Murder of Crows]

This is one of the reasons that I enjoy AGOT so much. the fact that charcters you start of liking you can end up hating and vice a versa. It's never black and white but a multitude of shades of grey.

[TyrionFan82]

I liked Theon in AGOT, but while I can somewhat understand his pov I don't agree w/it. Robb was supposed to be like a brother to him though and he was one of his top commanders in the Whispering Wood, it was a shitty thing to do to Robb if non one else. I wanted him to get his ass handed to him so bad by Ser Rodrik when I thought he killed the boys, though. I was so pissed. I'm glad he didn't.

@ Ramsay Gimp you might want to add a spoiler tag there for us who haven't read that far.

[Vikingkingq]

Here's the thing about Theon, yes he was a ward/hostage of the Starks so he doesn't owe loyalty to the House or to Eddard Stark; it's arguable that at the point that Eddard Stark is executed, his primary loyalty is to his House. But after that, no one put a sword to his throat and made him swear his sword to the King in the North at Riverrun. He made the choice to declare for Robb and fight for Robb, then went to the Iron Islands, and rather than say, return and warn the North what the Iron Islanders were up to, as was his duty as Robb's sworn sword and bannerman, he chose to turn his cloak and attack his lord's kingdom.

I think the real test of him is what he does when he takes Winterfell - he's so insecure that he orders summary, random executions and beatings, authorizes and participates in rapes, murders and threatens the murder of children, kills people for mouthing off to him, and then acts aggrieved when no one likes him. None of that was necessary, even had he made a clear decision that his primary duty was to his House - he was acting completely without orders and out of a sense of aggrieved entitlement.

I think his suffering in Dance of Dragons is, narratively, necessary for him to come back from that.

[TyrionFan82]

He's a tough character to analyze definitely. I hope in future books we see him come around to some extent. He's someone who really has no home. He was a ward at Winterfell, yet it says even Jon was treated better (according to him of course) and when he goes back to the Iron Islands Balon and Asha treat him like garbage. So I can see where he felt that taking Winterfell would prove himself, but while I read I still had a gnawing feeling in taking it something would go wrong. Also, whereas he isn't a great guy obviously since he was complicit in all of those crimes, at least he didn't actually kill Bran et al.

[David Selig]

Here's the thing about Theon, yes he was a ward/hostage of the Starks so he doesn't owe loyalty to the House or to Eddard Stark; it's arguable that at the point that Eddard Stark is executed, his primary loyalty is to his House. But after that, no one put a sword to his throat and made him swear his sword to the King in the North at Riverrun.

Theon didn't swear fealty to Robb. At least not "onscreen" in the books and given that nobody ever calls him "oathbreaker" which is a really big deal in Westeros, and neither did the ironborn called him out for that, chances are it didn't happen.

[Payme]

I fully understand why he did it, completely understand his decision...but he did turn his cloak, and he's a traitor no matter how you look at it... He was fighting with the North, then was sent to his father for the North... He left his father to go fight against the North... That's a turn, if there ever was one...

[Vikingkingq]

Theon didn't swear fealty to Robb. At least not "onscreen" in the books and given that nobody ever calls him "oathbreaker" which is a really big deal in Westeros, and neither did the ironborn called him out for that, chances are it didn't happen.

Yes he did. He rode with Robb's personal guards. And everyone calls him a turn cloak and an oath breaker.

The Ironborn don't care.

[David Selig]

I am pretty sure nobody calls him oath breaker. Do you have a quote on that?Turncloak is not the same thing.

[Drowsey Dragon]

I also don't recall him being called an oathbreaker, just a turncloak, which is a major difference. Yes Robb and Theon were close and fought together, but at no time in the books did Theon swear an oath of fealty to Robb. If anything, Theon had issue with how Robb treated him after he saved Brans life and the dig about he is not a Stark. This in no way should have led to Theon becoming a turncloak, but it was clear to everyone that Theon was no Stark and really only cared about Robb and Ned.

[David Selig]

Come to think of it, Robb sending Theon with an offer to make the Iron Islands an independent kingdom makes no sense if Robb had accepted Theon's oath of fealty and didn't release him of it before he sent him to his father. "Join me and you'd be an independent kingdom again...except that the heir of your King has sworn fealty to me, so that independence would only last until Theon takes the throne". Even Robb can't be naive enough to expect Balon to accept this.

[Vikingkingq]

David Selig - that's not actually the case in feudal law, which considers each title as separate from the others even if combined in one person. For example, the Plantagenet Kings of England were technically vassals under the Kings of France but still made war against them.

In terms of the specific word being used: first of all, turncloak is basically synonymous with oathbreaker, and it's highly unlikely that Theon was the one member of Robb's bodyguard who didn't swear an oath to him (certainly it's more explicit in the tv show). I read Luwin as implicitly calling Theon an oathbreaker in Clash of Kings (location 10322 in the Kindle version); Mikken calls Theon a traitor (location 9513).

[Caro99]

i get why he did the things he did in the first two chapters. i don't like it, but i guess that the pressure of not letting the ironborn down after he chose to side with them really affected him since he chose to do things only ramsay would do. but i've heard theon be compared to gollum, so by ADWD i think he's atone for his sins. he may not have wanted to atone for it in the way he did, but now i think that stannis ought to let him prove his valor and where his alligiances really lie now before he either dies peacefully- much to the lord of light's distress, i'm sure- or live his days in peace in a remote place where no one can accuse him of being a turcloak.

[Lord Belmore]

I have trouble judging Theon too harshly simply because he has already suffered so much for his decisions. I also don't feel very strongly that the decision between siding with his real family or adopted 'family' had a clear right answer; however, although I can't blame him ethically for his decision, I feel either side rightfully could have, and Theon's lot is to deal with those consequences.

He would have been betraying someone either way. If anything, his worst act was not trying harder to foster peace between his family and the Starks (at least, I don't recall him exerting much effort to that end), and that's why he really deserved punishment. He was in a tough situation, but he responded very poorly to it. He acted out of weakness rather than strength, and he seemed quite resigned to a betrayal. He idealized the Iron Islands and their warrish culture, he arrogantly tried to prove himself in this objectionable culture, and he paid for it.

I judge him as a fool who hasn't displayed much strength of character heretofore, but I do this based off of things tangential to his betrayal rather than the betrayal, itself. I don't think choosing the Starks over his family would have been a clear choice, but I think him choosing peace over war should have been a clear choice. He could still have a chance for redemption, though, and not having killed Bran and Rickon are crucial to that belief. He has suffered his punishment, but he has not yet moved past that into the realm of redemption. He's still acting out of fear and weakness in ADwD. Assuming he isn't summarily executed in the next book, I'm anxious to see if and how he has an opportunity to really show this experience has changed him and to be redeemed in a fuller sense of the word. There's still plenty of uncertainty in the North and the Iron Islands, and whatever happens, I'm skeptical that Euron Greyjoy will rule at the end of the series. What role Theon may have is still incredibly foggy.

[David Selig]

David Selig - that's not actually the case in feudal law, which considers each title as separate from the others even if combined in one person. For example, the Plantagenet Kings of England were technically vassals under the Kings of France but still made war against them.

In terms of the specific word being used: first of all, turncloak is basically synonymous with oathbreaker, and it's highly unlikely that Theon was the one member of Robb's bodyguard who didn't swear an oath to him (certainly it's more explicit in the tv show). I read Luwin as implicitly calling Theon an oathbreaker in Clash of Kings (location 10322 in the Kindle version); Mikken calls Theon a traitor (location 9513).

About Maester Luwyin, the only quote from him in ACOK with the word "Oathbreaker" I found is this one:

Hodor was nothing to him. “If he does not fight us, we will let him live.” Theon pointed a finger. “But say one word about sparing the wildling, and you can die with her. She swore me an oath, and pissed on it.”

The maester inclined his head. “I make no apologies for oathbreakers. Do what you must. I thank you for your mercy.”

From the context, it's clear to me the maester was talking about Osha being an oathbreaker, not Theon.

Oathbreaker is a really specific term - traitor, turncloak, etc are more broad ones. Theon fought with Robb and then against him so the Northmen calling him traitor and turnloak is natural and it doesn't mean he swore an oath of fealty to him.

I don't see why it would be highly unlikely that Theon would be the one member of Robb's bodyguard who didn't swear an oath of fealty to him. After all he's in unique position among them - everyone else's fathers (or mother in Dacey Mormont's case) are Rob's bannermen, Theon's father is not. Theon is a hostage, the others are free men.

[The hairy bear]

That Theon decided to follow his father against the Starks, I can undrestand. That he didn't tried to convince his father not to attack the North, I could overlook. That he participated in the attack, I may forgive. But using his knowledge of his years at Winterfell to take the castle, murdering the defenders who opposed him and going as far as to killing boys and hanging girls... that's as low as you can get.

He could still have a chance for redemption, though, and not having killed Bran and Rickon are crucial to that belief.

While I agree with most of what you say, I don't see how having killed the sons of a miller of similar age is significantly better than having killed two lordlings. And he also killed their mother...

[Lord Belmore]

While I agree with most of what you say, I don't see how having killed the sons of a miller of similar age is significantly better than having killed two lordlings. And he also killed their mother...

It's not really by our standards, but I'm basing my statement out of a morality more rooted in the ASoIaF world, itself. In that world, peasant children lack the same value as lordly children, wrong as that may be to us. It's the same way people forgave Sandor Clegane despite him riding down Mycah (and without posting much about subsequent books in this forum, there's more to be said for Sandor's redemption in the future). There are differences in perception between those two acts (an act of invasion and propaganda versus by order of the crown prince), but these aren't really moral differences by our non-Westerosi standards. Murder, or murder by lords and their agents, at least, also seems less unforgivable in Westeros--provided the one being murdered is of a lower social standing. In that context, I don't think Westeros would judge Theon as harshly for killing a couple peasants compared to killing his high nobility 'adopted brothers,' and I view his redemption in the light of Westeros rather than a completely outside light.

In short, I'm a bit more lenient in my judgment of those in the books than I could be. I view it as similar to judging historical figures, concerning whom I weigh the society around them heavily in my judgment. Otherwise, one could very well condemn most everyone by our modern standards, and that'd be boring to me.

[Sylvan Fox]

I can sympathize with Theon somewhat. He had a choice between his own blood family and the people who had raised him for the last 10 years. Also, it's not like he went with the intent to betray Robb. He had a plan that would have allowed him to work for both Robb and his father at once, and wouldn't have had to betray anybody. When Balon didn't accept the plan, he might have stopped to consider the option of going back to Robb, but he didn't. Instead he just went along with what his father told him to do (until he changed plans a bit later).

I don't see Theon as completely remorseless, either. When he is reaping along the shore (before Winterfell), he doesn't want to be there to drown Benfred Tallheart, and when he considers taking things from the corpses of men he's killed, he thinks of how Eddard Stark would have disapproved. His next thought is something like "Ned Stark is nothing to me," but he still doesn't steal the stuff. He doesn't enjoy his victory here, or at Winterfell. After killing the miller's family, his POV never has him expressing regrets (even though nobles in Westeros don't generally seem to give a hoot what happens to the "small folk"), but he is plagued by guilt, and by Winterfell itself.

Still, he continues to do horrible things, so it doesn't make much of a difference that he doesn't enjoy doing it. He's not a great person. I'd like to see him having some sort of redemption. I think it's possible.

[JojenReed]

I really like him. I feel sorry for him, he's really caught between a rock and hard place. Lose his chance of one day getting the Iron Islands or Betray the Starks he just chose the wrong course I feel. I find his chapters really interesting and intriguing none-the-less.