Heresy 7

[Uncat]

@Eira, Lummel

Ahh was that wonderfull, the cup of coffee at the street cafe, spring sun heeting my back and inside myself that wonderfull feeling of full insight. And now all gone...

But I should have knowen from the start. There never is an easy explanation and timlines are bitches. After all I studied history once...

So what I took for an insight turns to a question: If we take the wall for a division line, why is it so far north.

So You find me clueless again but happily chewing on two interesting posts :)

[Black Crow]

Finally the brother swears this vow for "this night and all nights to come." The Watch began during the Long Night, and the Long Night will come again. The Watch must be ready.

A splendid analysis and one I agree with wholeheartedly, except in the matter of timing. I think it is pretty obvious that the Watch wasn't formed to garrison the Wall at the outset, but I'm not at all convinced it predates the Wall. As we've discussed before, the Pact with the Children endured until the Andal invasion. Because the Kingdom of the North held out against the Andals the Children should have been safe there but instead they and the other Old Races were forced to flee beyond the Wall. We've tried to tie this in to the Night's King business and I think it might be worth exploring his actual connection with the Watch because the most sensible reading of events is that the Children were betrayed. The price of peace with Andal Westeros may have been to allow the Nights Watch in to defeat the Children, harry them northwards and then establish garrisons for the first time along the already existing Wall. This would also explain why most of the Watch are and apparently always have been followers of the Lord of Light (whether one or seven) rather than Northmen true to the Old Gods.

Edit: spelling

[Lummel]

I agree with Lockesnow that the Watch either predates the Wall or originally had nothing to do with it - the Wall might be rather the furthest north that they were able to fight...although having said that as the oath opens the door at the nightfort I think the balance of probabilities is that the Watch came first and the Wall followed later.

What that focus on the oath reminded me of very strongly was the Rh'lloristas with their night fires keeping watch for the dawn - and inevitably the Night's King who was a normal man by day but ruled the night.

A Rh'llor connection would sink our theories that those swearing to a heart tree are the ones true to the oath though.

Uncat - the heretic's business is uncertainty.

[hotweaselsoup]

Both Mance and Osha referred to the danger from the White Walkers and in fact it was Osha who first referred to them obliquely as rangers when she said that Mance had reckoned he would fight them "like the white walkers were no more than rangers". The threat was certainly being played up but it never amounted to more than a threat backed up by a few white rangers killing stragglers just to jolly things along.

So far you are right, we haven't seen any large-scale action by the white walkers. That said, the wildlings don't seem to be afraid of an amorphous winter, they seem to be terrified of the white walkers, the "shadows with teeth" as Tormund so eloquently names them. It may be that the white walkers are not out to rid the north of wildlings, but I'm not sure the wildlings know that. I really feel that they are fleeing before enemies - powerful enemies who can kill with cold and then raise their dead against them - and I think it is only this fear of a common enemy that is enough to unify the otherwise fiercely independent wildlings. If they were just running away from a terrible winter, why do they need to band together for that?

I agree that the white walkers do seem to be herding the wildlings southward, but I don't think it's for humanist reasons. We've heard about these periodic attempts by the King-Beyond-the-Wall led wildlings to break through the Wall, but each time they have tried, either they have been broken at the Wall or defeated beyond it by the Starks and their allies. Have these escape attempts by the wildlings of the past also been incited by white walker raiding parties? Could it be that the white walkers are pushing the wildlings south to war? It's morbid, but a lot of wildling blood has been soaked into the ground, both north and south of the Wall.

[hotweaselsoup]

so, I've been sitting through meetings all day and thusly fried my brain so excuse the cracked pot that will follow.

varys and his little birds claim to serve the realm, not the realm of men. what if his groomed king us not young griff, but mance . knowledge is his trade and his birds are in the north, yet he seems little concerned about what goes on up there. he does direct attention to the far south though..and likes birds...

Hmm, interesting thought! I'm not sure about the Varys/Mance connection, but your post did make me see interesting parallels between Bloodraven and Varys. Both are spymasters, and Bloodraven is a bit like a spider perched in his web of weirwood roots. And of course, and as you noted, they both employ flocks of "little birds" to run their messages and spy. Also, they both have protégés whom they are grooming for what seems to be some important role: Bloodraven has Bran, and Varys Young Griff. What is also interesting (to me, anyway!) is that there is an intimation that Young Griff is going to wreak havoc with Varys's best laid plans, symbolized by his overturning of the cyvasse board in his game with Tyrion. Does this imply that Bran, too, will perhaps go rogue? The fact that Bran has secrets, and perhaps greater powers than Bloodraven is aware of, makes me think that maybe Bran will rebel against the grand plan that Bloodraven has in mind for him.

[Black Crow]

Its obviously not altruistic in that the white rangers are happy to kill anybody who steps out of line, which is why I suspect that the movement is essentially a counter-attack by the Children (Others) and using them to re-establish their influence south of the Wall as evidenced by the cutting of faces in trees located at points suitable for watching roads and strategic locations such as Castle Black.

[Black Crow]

I agree with Lockesnow that the Watch either predates the Wall or originally had nothing to do with it - the Wall might be rather the furthest north that they were able to fight...although having said that as the oath opens the door at the nightfort I think the balance of probabilities is that the Watch came first and the Wall followed later.

What that focus on the oath reminded me of very strongly was the Rh'lloristas with their night fires keeping watch for the dawn - and inevitably the Night's King who was a normal man by day but ruled the night.

A Rh'llor connection would sink our theories that those swearing to a heart tree are the ones true to the oath though.

Well... I wonder about that. I agree that the oath is the clearest indication of a connection between the Lord of Light (1/7) and the Watch, but I'm still inclined to believe that the Watch originally had no connection with the Wall.

The business of the gate actually supports this. The Children as we've seen have tunnels all over the place but nary a sign of a gate. What if the gate wasn't intended to facilitate passage from one side of the Wall to the other but to block it, which is why it can only be opened by a sworn brother of the Nights Watch, but not, presumably by a white ranger. Sam took his oath before a weirwood tree but when it came to that fight with the white ranger he called on the Seven to aid him. He's still on the side of the Light and could therefore pass by saying the oath. Coldhands on the other hand is, and perhaps always has been working for the Old Gods so can't pass even though he was once a black ranger.

[lokisnow]

attempts by the wildlings of the past also been incited by white walker raiding parties? Could it be that the white walkers are pushing the wildlings south to war? It's morbid, but a lot of wildling blood has been soaked into the ground, both north and south of the Wall.

Well it furthers the interests of the white walkers--if they plan to invade south of the wall--to force men to fight men. It gives them more bodies for wights. It weakens two forces of men that oppose their interests. All with minimal losses of their own forces. So sure, it makes sense the White Walkers are forcing them to south to war.

[Black Crow]

Well it furthers the interests of the white walkers--if they plan to invade south of the wall--to force men to fight men. It gives them more bodies for wights. It weakens two forces of men that oppose their interests. All with minimal losses of their own forces. So sure, it makes sense the White Walkers are forcing them to south to war.

Well yes and no, insofar as I outlined earlier the White Walkers don't appear to be significant players in their own right but rather rangers working as agents for another party - Bloodraven and the Children.

[lokisnow]

whether or not the WW are in collusion with Bloodraven, it still may benefit them to make men fight men and create a supply of corpses.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Great discussions as always! I have some things to throw in the mix and don't worry nothing too crackpot just normal heresies. :)

Jon's thoughts when allowing Tormund and his group through the Wall..."One long blast. For a thousand years or more, that sound had meant rangers coming home." We have talked about this before...why only a thousand years? It could mean a long time ago, as standard, but I read the part where the song "The Night That Ended" was played again. (We have speculated this could be a seperate battle from the LN.) "When the singer reached the part where the NW rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for Dawn, Hother Umber used a warhorn, and he blew a blast to set all the dogs to barking." (pharaphrasing) Could this be when "one blast for rangers coming home" started, if it was a different battle?

Do we hear of weirwoods growing wild in the North? I don't remember that except for the Night Fort, and a spoiler chapter might have weirwoods growing wild but it was in the South. I would find that strange if they are not growing wild in the North, and then I wonder could that have something to do with the magic beyond the Wall or the Wall being protection for weirwoods there?

Something silly now...we have seen dragon bones in the Red Waste and the Iron Islands. Martin has said once there were dragons all over the world including Westeros. The bones we have seen are RW=fire dragon and II=sea dragon. Why have we not seen dragon bones in Westeros aside from KL? I suppose that people would, or have, used them for whatever. What if the dragons that were in Westeros were infact ice dragons and that they would melt so there would not be bones? I really don't think we will see an ice dragon (besides Jon himself) but it does make me wonder.

Do we know what the burial practices of the Night's Watch are? I remember Sam said they would burn Maester Aemon for the Targaryen tradition. So do they follow what their own family traditions are?

In the tunnels at the gates through the Wall there are iron bars (I think three sets at Castle Black) so could that be the protection they added so WW or wights can not pass?

Moat Cailin...Moat Cailin...Moat Cailin...I don't know why it bothers me so but it does! Who built it and why? Well why is easy maybe. "Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter's cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child's wooden blocks." This was from the curtain wall that was one hundred feet high. Even if you assume giants and or magic helped build MC I find the use of basalt intriguing. What is basalt exactly? I looked it up and I think it's some kind of volcanic rock so how would they have these huge pieces and where would they get them? Also if it's lunar basalt it would have a very high iron content....

The wiki says MC was claimed to be built 10,000 years ago by First Men. Then Winterfell was claimed to be built 8,000 years ago by Bran the Builder, with the help of giants, but the godswood at WF has been untouched for 10,000 years. Mmmm...

Maester Aemon said "The histories say the crannogmen grew close to the COTF in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the Hammer of the Waters down upon the Neck." First I forgot it was confirmed that the HOTW was definatly used on the Neck, then I found it interesting the greenseers used the Hammer....

Then it's interesting the children used the Children's Tower at MC to do this. Is MC a fortress for the children, did they build it, did the children do this to the FM, or did the FM bring them in to help fight the Andals?....

At MC the lore says "When night falls, there are said to be ghosts, cold vengeful spirits of the north who hunger for southern blood." Mmmm....

ETA I was thinking about MC because of the NW oath and "watcher on the walls"

[lokisnow]

Moat Cailin is the logical place for a wall, it's so damned narrow.

[Uncat]

Well, there is that scene in LOTR, where Treebeard and his lot, the keepers of the trees, flooded the place where Saruman made that awful creatures.

I'm not sure what you are hinting at. I rember the scene very well, but the walls of Ysengard were just ordinary walls. :dunno:

[Jojen]

Do we hear of weirwoods growing wild in the North? I don't remember that except for the Night Fort, and a spoiler chapter might have weirwoods growing wild but it was in the South. I would find that strange if they are not growing wild in the North, and then I wonder could that have something to do with the magic beyond the Wall or the Wall being protection for weirwoods there?

ETA I was thinking about MC because of the NW oath and "watcher on the walls"

Weirwoods were once plentiful in the wild both in the North and the South, until the Andals cut most of them down in the South. I believe they're still growing wild in the North, although there aren't as nearly many as there used to be.

Re: the NW vow, I figured the "walls" referred to The Wall itself plus the walls of the castles guarding it. If the forts indeed all have walls to walk.

Something that does nag at me, however, is that the Vow also mentions "the horn that wakes the sleepers." Doesn't Osha mention something about the white walkers as not dead, but only sleeping? Joramun's Horn of Winter--if it exists--supposedly could wake giants and could bring down the Wall, but since there are currently giants traveling with the Wildlings, that would suggest that the Horn was already used, but too far from the Wall to bring it down. So why didn't Joramun use it against the Wall when he fought the Night's King?

I'm also wondering about Alysanne as well. She convinced the Watch to abandon the Nightfort--the only castle (correct me if I'm wrong) with a tunnel beneath the Wall, one that happens to lead to a weirwood gate that can only be opened by repeating the Watch's vow. If the NW is connected in some way to the Lord of Light, (Red Rahloo, for instance), then there seems to be Fire and Ice magic at work beneath the Wall. Did the Children or BR ever look through the Gate's eyes? The Nightfort may very well have been abandoned for logistical reasons, but perhaps there was also an ulterior motive involving the Targs (Fire) and the Others (Ice).

And this just occurred to me: Does the NW wear black to differentiate themselves from the White Walkers? Or is it just to make them more visible against the snow and ice? Or does the color stand for all houses and none?

As for Moat Cailin, I always just assumed it had been built by the First Men to stop the Andals from coming up the Neck.

[Uncat]

Although Bran the Builder must have had some connection with the COTF in order to use magic when he constructed Storm's End, etc., <b> I have a problem with him being a COTF because, as far as we (well, I) know, the COTF did not build. There's no mention of COTF forts, henges, standing stones, tombs, etc., and I can't see how a person from a cave-dwelling society could suddenly appear with the skills and knowledge to build massive structures -- the Wall, perhaps, being the exception because walls are relatively simple, although 700' high walls are not. </b> Random thought: there are stories about storm gods and sea gods around Westeros, but they vary from region to region. In the Sisters, iirc, it was said that storms occurred when the gods of wind and water made love; at Storm's End, storms occurred because the gods of wind and water were angry that their daughter was taken from them by a man, in the Iron Islands, a religion arose in which the god of water and the god of wind are mortal enemies. Hmmmmnnn . . .

Maybe that is actually the point: Castles are things, men would and can build. Winterfell and Storm's End are great pieces of engineering - thinking of how Winterfell uses the heat of the warm springs and of how the seawall of Storm's End defies the elements for centuries. We also come acrosse the huge ruins of Moat Calin. Those are constructions men can do. And those are constructions fit for legends, if the knowlege, how to build such things get lost. It's the same thing with the wall of Mykene build of giant, perfectly fitting stones. Their were build in the bronze age and the knowledge was lost even to the classical Greeks living there some thousend years later. They talked about the Titan's walls imagining how ancient giants hew that stones from solid rock and fitted them together like ordinary people would do it with bricks.

The wall on the other hand is a completly different thing. One ridiculously high and massiv iceberg made of millions of tons of ice. No engineering skills we know can build such a wall and make it support it's own weight. and we have nothing like it in the whole of westeros. No structures or ruins which look like Bran or any other trained or developed the skills of pure magical creation of buildings and we see not tradition for such buildings. The Wall is singular.

So here comes the early morning crackpot: Forget about Bran the Builder. The first man aparrently were very skilled crafts men. But they learnd it on their own because building is a business apart of what the children do. Bran is a myth, explaining the existance of all this buildings. A red hering to confuse us about who actually did what and to confirm us readers in our belive that men (maybe with the help of the treehuggers magic) build that wall to defend themselves from the unnamed terror up north. Bran is als seen by many as an anchor in the qustion of tuimelines. Assuming that he build those things pinns them close together. Even if one assumes, that he had a veeeery long live, we are talking about, say, twohundred years in a timespan of about 10.000.

Now hit me if you like :) I'm sure that once again I'm deserving it.

Btw. The Wind and Sea thing is on a whole other page. I'm stil wondering about Patchface and his constant references on how things would look under water. There is something about this but what that would be is far from me :dunno:

[Uncat]

Uncat - the heretic's business is uncertainty.

Yepp, That's the first thing I learned to love, when studying history. Ohh, and another business of the heretic's is to run the heads against the Wall ;)

[Leto]

Hmm, interesting thought! I'm not sure about the Varys/Mance connection, but your post did make me see interesting parallels between Bloodraven and Varys. Both are spymasters, and Bloodraven is a bit like a spider perched in his web of weirwood roots. And of course, and as you noted, they both employ flocks of "little birds" to run their messages and spy. Also, they both have protégés whom they are grooming for what seems to be some important role: Bloodraven has Bran, and Varys Young Griff. What is also interesting (to me, anyway!) is that there is an intimation that Young Griff is going to wreak havoc with Varys's best laid plans, symbolized by his overturning of the cyvasse board in his game with Tyrion. Does this imply that Bran, too, will perhaps go rogue? The fact that Bran has secrets, and perhaps greater powers than Bloodraven is aware of, makes me think that maybe Bran will rebel against the grand plan that Bloodraven has in mind for him.

Well that's the general direction my thoughts were going. I got stuck on the ignorance to the north of the wall though, I just can't see Varys 'forgetting' about that intel. That's The reason for me throwing mance into the mix. Bloodraven has plans for mance, Varys is looking for a king of the people and Mance just fits his bill. Then you have the protect the realm vs protect the realm of men (which clearly does not include wildling as of current times). I just get the feeling those two are playing on the same side, without anything solid to back it up with, of course.

And I'm trying my damnedest to figure out the maesters part in this. They are the third 'bird' faction, and also the ones sitting on the written history, which seems of great importance to the events beyond the wall. The whole idea of the maeasters also fit so well with the Bene gesserit sisterhood from Dune. A supposedly neutral (all female) house providing the 'player houses' with truthsayers and maester-like services. While their own agenda is a breeding scheme to get the kwisatzhaderach (the prince that was promised?) and in the long run rule the known universe for the good of humanity. Planning and scheming are on millennia-scope (of course with short term goals involved).

[Black Crow]

Moat Cailin is the logical place for a wall, it's so damned narrow.

I think that this is one of those problems with the fantastical timelines. If we think of time as a cone recent events are well remembered or recorded and we can be reasonably sure that something said to have occurred a century ago did indeed happen at that time. However the further back it goes the less certain the timeline as seen by the classic example of Kings ruling for hundreds of years when in fact the stories are being told of two quite different kings of the same name. Similarly if we accept we have a good timeline for events going back 1,000 years – the equivalent period in our world from the Wars of the Roses to the Fall of the Roman Empire, it doesn’t follow that the timeline for the preceding 1,000 years is equally good. Events said to have occurred 2,000 years ago may only have occurred 1,000 years ago plus another couple of centuries, and something said to have occurred 3,000 years ago may actually have happened 1,300 years ago and so on in an accelerating inverse series which might for example mean that far from being 8,000 years old the Wall may only be 2,000 years old. Short of a proper chronicle turning up – which presumably it will eventually do in order to explain things – we can’t determine the actual degree of compression, but the point at issue here is that the Andal invasion probably took place far more recently than the accepted 6,000 to 4,000 years ago.

Now I’m inclined to think that notwithstanding what we’ve been told and the link with the rise of Valyria it may have been much closer to 1,500 years ago. The clues lie with the Watch, the Night that Ended, the blowing of the horn, and the Nights King.

Leaving dates out of it the sequence of events seems straightforward enough up to a point. Along came the Andals, conquered the kingdoms south of the Neck, massacred all the Children they could catch and chased the rest northwards. They get stopped at Moat Caillin and we’re told many armies broke themselves against it. The histories are tolerably vague on this, but presumably these attacks like the Anglo-Scots wars of the Middle Ages took place over a good number of years. So if we say for the sake of argument that the Andal conquest of the south was complete 1,500 years ago it may have taken another 500 years before the North accepted breaking the Pact as the price of peace.

The Watch seems central to this, but the problem has been reconciling the part played by the Night’s King. If, as the price of peace the Nights Watch – as forerunners of the Faith Militant, were admitted to the North – it is entirely feasible that as part of the deal it would be insisted that the lord commander should be a Stark rather than some southern zealot knowing nothing of the country or its people. However Bran Stark the Night’s King insisted on holding by the Old Gods and so he and the “Others” eventually had to be dealt with by the rest of the Watch, and by his brother and Joruman as well in order to preserve peace south of the Wall.

This scenario reconciles a lot of the problems. It allows for a Nights Watch far predating its occupation of the Wall, when as “watchers on the wall” they tended the nightfires while watching for the dawn as we’ve seen the red priests do in Essos. It ties together a big victory by the Night’s Watch against the Others celebrated in The Night that Ended; with the blowing of horns in the song; and with Jon’s curious recollection that horns had been blown on the Wall for 1,000 years. It also provides a possible solution to the unexplained problem of the number of Lord Commanders. I’ve suggested before that Sam’s doubts as to the numbering might arise from the fact that in legend the Night’s King was the 13^th Lord Commander, but that the commander whose name was erased from the roll was much more recent. If therefore we have a Nights Watch going back to the Andal invasion and perhaps even beyond that, but Starks only started being associated with it when the Watch was admitted to the North just 1,000 years ago, that would explain the erasure of a Lord Commander at about that time rather than way back at the very beginning.

[Uncat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Prof. Crow. But this strenghenes the idea, that the Night that ended and the Long Night are two very different events.

One would be an "ordinary" conquest of a land that was figurarivly speaking in the dark. A little similar to the Reconconquista in Spain only with the "Re". This ideological conquest of the Nort ended with the Night's Watch actually laying a siege on the great Wall which already has been there for centuries or even millenia.

The other would be some kind of climatic catastrophe (most probably brought about by magic) which happende long before the night that ended. Man did not end this Night in a great war against WW and their kind but by seeking out the Children who did, what ever it is what they did to end or help men ending the Long Night.

Two legends that are about to fuse in one. It did not happen yet but to those in Westeros and espacially in the South, I guess, they allready seem to be part of of one larger story. Give it a good hundred more years and people will have managed to to come up with that larger story and fuse the two myths into a new one.

Two questions pop up: Is the Long Night a tale only told in the North? I.e. did it only affect the nort and not all of Westeros?

Would this mean that we can we finally cut Azor Ahay (reborn or not) from the Long Night and the fight against the Others and toss him into the jar with The Night that ended?

Or can we even cut AA out of this more recent event and make room for the idea that the Darkness that he fought was yet another darkness which was fought in even more mythical times and in the East. The ancient R'hollor fans in Westeros only adapted this legend to give their conquest of the North a mythical legitimation by calling it a fight against the Night and the Darkness in the North which they finally managed to end.

And here we are with three separate events. Two in Westero, one to the East. What to make of them? :dunno:

But sun is shining and it is time for the afternoon crackpot: We have two events concerning The North, The Others and The Wall. Could they be connected to two other events?

The Long Night ends and the Wall is build (or: the Wall is build and the Long Night ends)

The events of The Night That Ended come to pass and the Night's Watch as the force defending (or laying siege to it) the Wall is established.

And here I am once more, bangig my had against The Wall

[Clueless Northman]

Frankly, I don't think we should take the "1000 years" too literally.

Even if history of the Andals and earlier ages is murky and probably a bit more recent, everything up to the conquest of Dorne by Rhoynish people following Nymeria seems to me to be quite fixed:

300 BP (before present/ASOIAF): Aegon's conquest

400BP: Doom of Valyria

500BP: Valyria occupies Dragonstone

600BP: Doom of Hardhome

1000BP Conquest of Dorne

Everything earlier might have happened more recently, I suppose, but I can't see the Conquest of Dorne being later than 900BP; they would remember.

I also wonder if it's realistic to suspect the Long Night could've happened, say 3.000 years ago, because Valyria was already a mighty empire by then, and would've suffered and remembered some side-effects. Unless we assume that the Long Night and 25-years long winter, with barely any day for months, would happen only in Westeros.

I've always suspected that one of the reasons why people in Asshai could remember it is because some effects were global.

Now, of course, it's possible that the whole chronology is 2.000/3.000 years shorter overall, including the founding of Valyria being, say, 1.000 years later.

Still, about early history being fuzzy, writing has been around for millennia. We don't even know when it appeared but odds are that the Andals brought it to Westeros.

And of course, there's the Citadel. It's been around for, allegedly, the last 8.000 years I think. Since the whole maester system is supposed to be a quite unbroken chain since then, they must have a quite solid grasp of past history. Unless of course there have been major troubles that were forgotten later, and most of their records got lost ;)

Last, I think it's worth pondering Oldtown, if we want to deepen and refine the heretical research. It was founded by the First Men, the rumors say, and the Hightower - one of the biggest building in Westeros - is supposed to be one of the first buildings ever built there. Nearly as old as Winterfell, Storm's End or the Wall apparently.

What was its original purpose? What role did the city (if it existed) or the tower play in relation to the COTF? Would they know what happened, would they keep some kind of record of the Pact, in a way or another? Or would it mostly be the central city of the First Men, deep in farmlands, far away from woods and other areas favored by the Children, and therefore without contact with them?

Is the Maesters' order so old? Would their masterplan for Westeros date from such an early time? What link would they have (or had) with the Children?