Ser Notappearinginthisfilm, on 24 April 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:
@Elaena:wow I'm quite impressed at your creativity throughout this thread. I've been'lurking' around here for the theories ever since I finished Dance, and the one of the most fascinating to me is the Hardhome / Doom connection. I hadn't picked up the Moonsingers as being notable, but now you've got me thinking.
Why thank you very much! Creativity is not my strong suit so I was happy it worked for once, and that is what happen here and why I wanted to explore and discuss this with everyone to see where it could end up fitting in with the text, I just hope I didn't get to far from the story. The Moonsingers just linked things together for me and it could be possible they become more important, I would not be surprised, but nothing could happen too.
Anyway, what I wanted to contribute to this thread, was to elaborate on the use of Bronze weapons by quoting Bran's vision out of the eyes of the tree after drinking the Weirwood juice. Specifically, the last scene:
"Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white - haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickel in her hand. "No", said Bran, "no, don`t", but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. and through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man`s feet drummed against the earth... but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood."
Most speculation around this event is that it is the oldest of the visions (correct IMO) and that it is either a sacrifice to activate the tree (maybe IMO) or a punishment for a foul deed (less interesting but plausable). The point is the connection between blood sacrifice, weirwoods, bronze, and magic. Could the white haired woman be a CotF? Maybe Bran would have identified her as such; perhaps not, it was a short and terrible vision. It's interesting that in such disparate times and places, people use the same practice of bronze weapons for ritual / magic sacrifice. Usually common cultural myths / practices indicats a common origin.
Thank you for pointing this out! Sometimes I have all of this in my thoughts from other thread discussions and I forget to mention this so everyone else can see what I'm connecting.
As for connections between Hardhome and Valyria, there is one fly in the ointment (assuming the cause of the disasters - some blend of volcanoes and magic - are related). In Valyria, it is implied that the Valyrians 'dug too deep' like Tolkien's dwarves, or pushed some kind of limits too far (limits of magic? cruelty?), bringing about their downfall in some way.
Well it's also implied the Faceless Men could have caused the Doom in AFFC when the Kindly Man tells Arya the story of their beginnings and at the end of his tale...
...The first gift had been given."
Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!"
"He would bring the gift to them as well... but that is a tale for another day...
...but we don't know enough yet and it could go either way. The Moonsingers could have helped with this if the Doom and the MS are connected, but this is extreme speculation, and I do see some possible connections.
At Hardhome, all we know is that it was a wildling encampment / town until its destruction. The links between the two are primarily in the descriptions of lights in the sky, fire, and demon haunting (perhaps firewyrms, if that's where the caves came from at hardhome) but those are effects, not causes. What we need is a mutual cause, but the situations are so different, hardhome a scrubby enclave on a cold ocean inhabited by wildlings, and the empire of Valyria. That's the fly - what makes hardhome similar to Valyria? Obviously the main candidate is the theory that the Valyrians tried to establish some kind of beachhead at Hardhome, perhaps interacting with a volcano there. A twist on this is the one in this thread about wildlings / moonsingers being present in both places. But what drew the Valyrians to hardhome? Seems they needed something.. perhaps something magical.. or a percieved threat.. anyway I'm sure this an important mystery, and I'm excited that we will get to find out something about hardhome in the next book.
The thing with Hardhome for me is I have seen posters wondering why the Valyrians never tried to conquer Westeros, and I think HH could have been an attempt particularly if there is in fact a volcano at HH, and given the similarites with HH and the Doom. The farthest Valyrian empire outpost we know of is Dragonstone, with a volcano and the Targaryens went there about 100 years after the doom of HH. I would think being so far from Valyria they would need a base camp that has a volcano. It is interesting to think about other motivations like you have brought up and like you I'm eager for more info.
P.S. The weirwood door on the FM temple has been bugging me ever since I read it. Perhaps they just traded for some weirwood.. or perhaps it's more that that.
The weirwood and ebony front door, and chairs, at the House of Black and White intrigues me too. What makes me the most curious is...
At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell. The doors are watching me, she thought.
ETA Welcome Ser Notappearinginthisfilm to the forum or atleast to for your first post, I know I was a long time lurker before I finally jumped in too.
Edited by Elaena Targaryen, 24 April 2012 - 06:11 PM.