141 replies to this topic

[Jojen]

Elaena Targaryen, on 01 April 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Something else about the Eyrie has me curious, no weirwood in the intended godswood. The only (I think) confirmed weirwoods south of the Wall that survived the Andal invasion are in the North and at Raventree Hall. It seems the other weirwoods in the godswoods at various castles may have been a little younger and might have been a condition of some kind of pact with the Andals and the North, which is speculation of course. Or even not cutting and burning weirwoods in general, because there were enough weirwoods felled for beams and rafters for Harrenhal and Whitewalls, (for HH weirwoods that had stood for 3 thousand years) speculating again but this was probably not a good thing at all. So did the Eyrie have a weirwood before the conquest? Why did they try so hard to (replace it?) plant a weirwood in the intended godswood? Why wasn't a different tree used as the heart tree like we have seen in KL? The most likely answer is that the soil was too stoney because we have seen the deep rooted system of weirwoods through the caves of the BWB and the children, but surley another tree would have taken root.

AGOT Catelyn:
  [/font]

Later in ASOS (?) Sansa thinks there is no weirwood because the soil is too stoney and Bran thinks about the island of Queenscrown being too stoney for weirwoods. Now that should say it all but there is something else that I'm not sure about.

ACOK Jon:
[/font]

Now if there was really an actual weirwood growing here that Bran manipulated then that makes me question what happened in the Eyrie. If this was a real weirwood then I wonder if the Eyrie could not grow a weirwood because they tried in the summer and it was not enough moonlight for the weirwood to live. We know they do not stay there in colder seasons so the only attempts were in warmer weather. So this fits with the theory that weirwoods need the moon to grow, or are moon trees. Well anyway that's my crackpot for the day.

It may have something to do not just with the soil but with the amount of rain it gets. The Eyrie might be in a rain shadow. It does seem drier there than in the Riverlands or the Stormlands.

[Lykos]

I like the moonlight idea, concerning Weirwood growth, but don´t they also grow in caves?  Maybe too much light  is keeping Weirwoods from growing, they needed dense dark forests or the shade of castle walls.  The Eyrie might be too high and full of light.

[Bran Vras]

Here is another question: Why did the Arryns, of pure Andal nobility, decided to build their castle in such an inconvenient place? Is it because no weirwood would grow there, and therefore the Arryn would be protected from the power of the old gods?

[Bran Vras]

I have mentioned the symmetry between red magic and white magic upthread. It's reflected perhaps in the symmetries rubies/moonstones, Morna/Quaithe, and Val/Melisandre.

Little riddle: At some point there is a deliberate and indisputable symmetry between red and white. Can anyone recall what it is?

(It is quite likely to be related to our topic.)

[Lykos]

@Bran Vras
Are you thinking about the Temples of R´hllor and the Moonsingers, that you mentioned in your Mance Raydar thread?  Please tell me, the books are full of red and white.  There are the Lannister colours and the Stark´s, the Red Waste and the Land of Always Winter and I seem to be unable to see the needle in the needle stack.

[Bran Vras]

Lykos, on 06 April 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

@Bran Vras
Are you thinking about the Temples of R´hllor and the Moonsingers, that you mentioned in your Mance Raydar thread?  Please tell me, the books are full of red and white.  There are the Lannister colours and the Stark´s, the Red Waste and the Land of Always Winter and I seem to be unable to see the needle in the needle stack.

No, it's something absolutely not subject to interpretation, the most clearcut example of symmetry one can imagine. Unfortunately, the show will not depict it tomorrow, as it should.

I have formulated this as a riddle partly because I hoped examples I have not thought about of the red/white symmetry would be brought up. And I like your Red Waste/Land of Always Winter comparison.

Edit: The more I think of it, the more I like it, and I'll return to it later.

The answer will be given in another thread that will be started soon. (Three theories, I still need to research the third one.) I have given enough hints.

Edited by Bran Vras, 07 April 2012 - 08:23 AM.

[alienarea]

Just remembered that singing and dancing go together. What could this mean for Moonsingers and Wood Dancers?

[Elaena Targaryen]

Did Val remind anyone of Diana when she came back from finding Tormund? All in white wearing a tunic with a long bone dagger and Ghost at her side, the only thing she was missing was a bow and quiver which the dagger could replace. (and maybe she should have worn her bronze circlet crown that Stannis gave her)

@ alienarea I wonder about singers and dancers as well. There are spellsingers, and I believe Dany mentions stormsingers once, and there are waterdancers. Also MMD was spellsinging, when Rheago dies, and there were shadows dancing a great wolf and a man wreathed in flames, and she was most likely singing moonsingers birthing songs maybe combined with red magic. (anyway that's what I speculate)

@Bran Vras that is so not fair! I thought your riddle was about weirwoods in general but after your second post it seems you are talking about something more specific. I think GRRM tortures us enough so you should give us more clues or start your thread soon!

[Lykos]

@Elaena Targaryen
Yes Diana has taken on some traits of Artemis when the romans took over the greek culture.  I think she is displayed as a hunter because she was seen as a supplier of food (Bran Vras just reminded me that Val took food to the wildlings in the heresy thread).

Also in the Golden Bough the little lake Nemi is called "Diana´s Mirror",  there has been some discussion of Val beeing the "White Lady" in Bran Vras´ thread about Mance. (I quotet BV in post #38 in this thread.)

*****
I watched a nice documentary on Arte a week ago on the Antikythera mechanism, the first calculator known.  It´s designed to calculate moonphases (including colours), eclipses and so on.  It´s based on babylonian records of centuries of moon observations.
And it was mentioned, that the babylonians connected eclipses with adversities and to prevent the king being blamed for the ill, they installed a "stand in king" for time an eclipse was predicted.  Afterwards the "stand in king" was killed and the king resumed rule (though I guess the real power lay with the priests.)

[Bran Vras]

Bran Vras, on 07 April 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

No, it's something absolutely not subject to interpretation, the most clearcut example of symmetry one can imagine. Unfortunately, the show will not depict it tomorrow, as it should.

I have formulated this as a riddle partly because I hoped examples I have not thought about of the red/white symmetry would be brought up. And I like your Red Waste/Land of Always Winter comparison.

Edit: The more I think of it, the more I like it, and I'll return to it later.

The answer will be given in another thread that will be started soon. (Three theories, I still need to research the third one.) I have given enough hints.

The answer to the riddle: the hair of Jaqen H'ghar. In the Jaqen thread I argue that the two colours represent the two temples of Braavos, and therefore the white religion and the red religion.

About the symmetry between the red waste and the land of always winter: there is an interesting succession of three chapters in ACoK: White Tree, The Red Waste, The town where Yoren is killed. All three evolve around the exploration of a deserted village/city/town. Is the Red Waste the land of always fire?

[Elaena Targaryen]

Found something of interest with Marwyn, now it could be nothing at all, but it could be connected.

Marwyn...

Quote

People said that he kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrificed to queer gods at the little sailors’ temples down by the wharves. Men spoke of seeing him down in the undercity, in rat pits and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, even beggars. Some even whispered that once he had killed a man with his fists.

Now the House of Black and White....

Quote

Thirty different gods stood along the walls, surrounded by their little lights. The Weeping Woman was the favorite of old women, Arya saw; rich men preferred the Lion of Night, poor men the Hooded Wayfarer. Soldiers lit candles to Bakkalon, the Pale Child, sailors to the Moon-Pale Maiden and the Merling King. The Stranger had his shrine as well, though hardly anyone ever came to him.

Now something of a different nature; masks. We have been discussing Quaithe, Morna, Uthero.... well I never knew ( or payed attention I quess ) that the Archmaesters have masks. I have no idea what the significance is but I still find it interesting, so here's the list...

Quote

—the Archmaesters of the Citadel:

—ARCHMAESTER NORREN, Seneschal for the waning year, whose ring and rod and mask are electrum,

—ARCHMAESTER THEOBALD, Seneschal for the coming year, whose ring and rod and mask are lead,

—ARCHMAESTER EBROSE, the healer, whose ring and rod and mask are silver,

—ARCHMAESTER MARWYN, called MARWYN THE MAGE, whose ring and rod and mask are Valyrian steel,

—ARCHMAESTER PERESTAN, the historian, whose ring and rod and mask are copper,

—ARCHMAESTER VAELLYN, called VINEGAR VAELLYN, the stargazer, whose ring and rod and mask are bronze,

—ARCHMAESTER RYAM, whose ring and rod and mask are yellow gold,

—ARCHMAESTER WALGRAVE, an old man of uncertain wit, whose ring and rod and mask are black iron,

[Bran Vras]

I had no idea that the archmaesters would wear masks. Do we know when and why they are supposed to wear them? Does the Grandmaester own as mask as well?

In any case they clearly belong to another tradition than the Brazen Beasts and Morna and Quaithe.

[DragonSpawn]

This may have no relevence at all but you guys seem clued up on this stuff so i'm sure your views will be credible: There is a place in the Vale called: Alyssa's Tears...

Wiki: Alyssa's Tears is a waterfall in the Vale of Arryn. It lies on the western side of the Giant's Lance. It receives its name from Alyssa Arryn, an ancient member of House Arryn who saw her family butchered before her and never shed a tear. No drop of the waterfall reaches the floor of the valley below.

I don't know if this makes it a magical waterfall? I don't know of any other waterfalls where the water does not reach the bottom? But does anyone else feel there is a similarity between Alyssa and Alysanne (Sansa)?

Due to being a captive i don't know if Sansa ever shed a tear for her father... (i.e when Joffrey made her look at his head on a spike...)
When Bran / Rickon died...
When Robb and her Mother died... and with Arya presumed dead...

I have in my head this weird story playing out where Sansa is either a captive or ruler of the vale... and there are armies coming to get her...

I'm thinking along the lines of the classic knight story where they have to rescue a maiden from a tower (Eeryie)

Bronn springs to mind... "give me ten good men and some climbing spikes and i'll impregnate the bitch"

Essentially she is hunted in the Vale and ends up in the Eeryie... her enemies are in the Eeryie and she has no escape expcept through the moon door... something happens ... a sacrafice... or an intervention from Bran (talking to her through the weirwood throne) and she has to make an act of faith .. like Dany did when she walked into the flames... Sansa throws herself out through the weirwood door and flies... she's chased to the waterfall where she throws herself off... she never hits the floor... everyone assumes she's dead... ??? I have a strange imagination but there are several mentions of "preserving the maidens virtue" - which considering Sansa has avoided being raped so far - seems to fit...

Also (while i suspect that Giants have something to do with LF) doesn't the giants lance sound like Tormunds member!? I only mention this as i have visions of Jon being the Ice dragon... and also becoming the King beyond the Wall rather than the King in the North ... Regarding Mance: "What is he king of? Some frozen lake somewhere?" Well if anyone has read the Ice Dragon - they melt into big pools... so what if an Ice Dragon is raised from this frozen lake? Jon comes south with his army to save Sansa ... Sansa and Tormund fall in love!? - crackpot theory for sure ... but couldn't help be interested by this waterfall ... which seems to be located in an area with lots of moon symbology

Edited by DragonSpawn, 13 April 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[Euphail]

Bran Vras, on 05 April 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Little riddle: At some point there is a deliberate and indisputable symmetry between red and white. Can anyone recall what it is?

(It is quite likely to be related to our topic.)

I was going to say the weirwoods themselves. Red leaves and sap, white tree. Typically, trees shed their leaves in winter - the cold enabling only the tree itself to endure. (the cold preserves) The sap brings life to the tree in winter (it's like antifreeze.) In spring when the sun returns, the leaves grow.

I thought it was neat symmetry, but it doesn't lend any credit to weirwoods only growing in the moon/winter.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Bran Vras, on 12 April 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

I had no idea that the archmaesters would wear masks. Do we know when and why they are supposed to wear them? Does the Grandmaester own as mask as well?

In any case they clearly belong to another tradition than the Brazen Beasts and Morna and Quaithe.

Yes I knew I was forgetting some one-the Brazen Beasts. Anyway I have not really looked in to the Archmaesters masks that much yet, also I don't believe there is very much info. When I found it Pate was thinking how another maester was sitting under Archmaester Walgrave's mask. I'm not sure about the Grandmaester. This is what the wiki says about the masks...

Archmaester
The perceived "master" of any area of study is given a mask, ring or rod and the title Archmaester in the corresponding metal to signify his expertise. For example, an archmaester who specializes in ravenry will have a mask, ring or rod made of black iron

DragonSpawn, on 13 April 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

This may have no relevence at all but you guys seem clued up on this stuff so i'm sure your views will be credible: There is a place in the Vale called: Alyssa's Tears...

Wiki: Alyssa's Tears is a waterfall in the Vale of Arryn. It lies on the western side of the Giant's Lance. It receives its name from Alyssa Arryn, an ancient member of House Arryn who saw her family butchered before her and never shed a tear. No drop of the waterfall reaches the floor of the valley below.

I don't know if this makes it a magical waterfall? I don't know of any other waterfalls where the water does not reach the bottom? But does anyone else feel there is a similarity between Alyssa and Alysanne (Sansa)?

Due to being a captive i don't know if Sansa ever shed a tear for her father... (i.e when Joffrey made her look at his head on a spike...)
When Bran / Rickon died...
When Robb and her Mother died... and with Arya presumed dead...

I have in my head this weird story playing out where Sansa is either a captive or ruler of the vale... and there are armies coming to get her...

I'm thinking along the lines of the classic knight story where they have to rescue a maiden from a tower (Eeryie)

Bronn springs to mind... "give me ten good men and some climbing spikes and i'll impregnate the bitch"

Essentially she is hunted in the Vale and ends up in the Eeryie... her enemies are in the Eeryie and she has no escape expcept through the moon door... something happens ... a sacrafice... or an intervention from Bran (talking to her through the weirwood throne) and she has to make an act of faith .. like Dany did when she walked into the flames... Sansa throws herself out through the weirwood door and flies... she's chased to the waterfall where she throws herself off... she never hits the floor... everyone assumes she's dead... ??? I have a strange imagination but there are several mentions of "preserving the maidens virtue" - which considering Sansa has avoided being raped so far - seems to fit...

Also (while i suspect that Giants have something to do with LF) doesn't the giants lance sound like Tormunds member!? I only mention this as i have visions of Jon being the Ice dragon... and also becoming the King beyond the Wall rather than the King in the North ... Regarding Mance: "What is he king of? Some frozen lake somewhere?" Well if anyone has read the Ice Dragon - they melt into big pools... so what if an Ice Dragon is raised from this frozen lake? Jon comes south with his army to save Sansa ... Sansa and Tormund fall in love!? - crackpot theory for sure ... but couldn't help be interested by this waterfall ... which seems to be located in an area with lots of moon symbology

Very interesting! You have encouraged me to want to take a closer look at all of this. I haven't yet but please share any findings you get! I love the magical waterfall idea! I can see something happening here with Sansa for sure now with your theory.

Euphail, on 13 April 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

I was going to say the weirwoods themselves. Red leaves and sap, white tree. Typically, trees shed their leaves in winter - the cold enabling only the tree itself to endure. (the cold preserves) The sap brings life to the tree in winter (it's like antifreeze.) In spring when the sun returns, the leaves grow.

I thought it was neat symmetry, but it doesn't lend any credit to weirwoods only growing in the moon/winter.

Well I will tell you how I arrived at the weirwoods need the moon / winter to grow idea. First I was reading about old Celtic and Irish histories regaurding the moon and found how important the trees were to them. IIRC they called the willow a moon tree and had magical mythologies connected to the weirwoods in ASOIF ( and another tree that I don't recall right now ) I found all of it very interesting. Then Uncat was kind enough to share her findings from the text with us ( in her moon poetry post #57 ) and her convincing interpretation of a weirwood making an audible movement towards the moon similar to the sunflower, so I was very excited by this. Now given the willow being clasified as a moon tree I don't think they necessarily thought the moon made it grow but maybe gave it magical properties. But I'm not by any means sure and maybe some one with more knowledge could clarify for us. Now the theory was only a means to explore other possibilities and not really something I support.

Edited by Elaena Targaryen, 14 April 2012 - 05:15 PM.

[Ser Notappearinginthisfilm]

@Elaena:wow I'm quite impressed at your creativity throughout this thread. I've been'lurking' around here for the theories ever since I finished Dance, and the one of the most fascinating to me is the Hardhome / Doom connection. I hadn't picked up the Moonsingers as being notable, but now you've got me thinking. Anyway, what I wanted to contribute to this thread, was to elaborate on the use of Bronze weapons by quoting Bran's vision out of the eyes of the tree after drinking the Weirwood juice. Specifically, the last scene:

"Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white - haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickel in her hand. "No", said Bran, "no, don`t", but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. and through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man`s feet drummed against the earth... but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood."

Most speculation around this event is that it is the oldest of the visions (correct IMO) and that it is either a sacrifice to activate the tree (maybe IMO) or a punishment for a foul deed (less interesting but plausable). The point is the connection between blood sacrifice, weirwoods, bronze, and magic. Could the white haired woman be a CotF? Maybe Bran would have identified her as such; perhaps not, it was a short and terrible vision. It's interesting that in such disparate times and places, people use the same practice of bronze weapons for ritual / magic sacrifice. Usually common cultural myths / practices indicats a common origin.

As for connections between Hardhome and Valyria, there is one fly in the ointment (assuming the cause of the disasters - some blend of volcanoes and magic - are related). In Valyria, it is implied that the Valyrians 'dug too deep' like Tolkien's dwarves, or pushed some kind of limits too far (limits of magic? cruelty?), bringing about their downfall in some way. At Hardhome, all we know is that it was a wildling encampment / town until its destruction. The links between the two are primarily in the descriptions of lights in the sky, fire, and demon haunting (perhaps firewyrms, if that's where the caves came from at hardhome) but those are effects, not causes. What we need is a mutual cause, but the situations are so different, hardhome a scrubby enclave on a cold ocean inhabited by wildlings, and the empire of Valyria. That's the fly - what makes hardhome similar to Valyria? Obviously the main candidate is the theory that the Valyrians tried to establish some kind of beachhead at Hardhome, perhaps interacting with a volcano there. A twist on this is the one in this thread about wildlings / moonsingers being present in both places. But what drew the Valyrians to hardhome? Seems they needed something.. perhaps something magical.. or a percieved threat.. anyway I'm sure this an important mystery, and I'm excited that we will get to find out something about hardhome in the next book.

P.S. The weirwood door on the FM temple has been bugging me ever since I read it. Perhaps they just traded for some weirwood.. or perhaps it's more that that.

Edited by Ser Notappearinginthisfilm, 24 April 2012 - 06:50 AM.

[boldunderlined]

I hadn't noticed the connection between Mirri Maz Durr, her Moonsinger training and the bronze blade for the sacrifice, with Bran's vision of the weirwood sacrifice. That is interesting.

As for the Eyrie, I'd always thought they couldn't grow a weirwood because of the lack of blood spilled there. Not from battle, due to it's supposed impregnability, or from execution or sacrifice due to the moon door.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Ser Notappearinginthisfilm, on 24 April 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

@Elaena:wow I'm quite impressed at your creativity throughout this thread. I've been'lurking' around here for the theories ever since I finished Dance, and the one of the most fascinating to me is the Hardhome / Doom connection. I hadn't picked up the Moonsingers as being notable, but now you've got me thinking.

Why thank you very much! Creativity is not my strong suit so I was happy it worked for once, and that is what happen here and why I wanted to explore and discuss this with everyone to see where it could end up fitting in with the text, I just hope I didn't get to far from the story. The Moonsingers just linked things together for me and it could be possible they become more important, I would not be surprised, but nothing could happen too.

Quote

Anyway, what I wanted to contribute to this thread, was to elaborate on the use of Bronze weapons by quoting Bran's vision out of the eyes of the tree after drinking the Weirwood juice. Specifically, the last scene:

"Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white - haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickel in her hand. "No", said Bran, "no, don`t", but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. and through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man`s feet drummed against the earth... but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood."

Most speculation around this event is that it is the oldest of the visions (correct IMO) and that it is either a sacrifice to activate the tree (maybe IMO) or a punishment for a foul deed (less interesting but plausable). The point is the connection between blood sacrifice, weirwoods, bronze, and magic. Could the white haired woman be a CotF? Maybe Bran would have identified her as such; perhaps not, it was a short and terrible vision. It's interesting that in such disparate times and places, people use the same practice of bronze weapons for ritual / magic sacrifice. Usually common cultural myths / practices indicats a common origin.

Thank you for pointing this out! Sometimes I have all of this in my thoughts from other thread discussions and I forget to mention this so everyone else can see what I'm connecting.

Quote

As for connections between Hardhome and Valyria, there is one fly in the ointment (assuming the cause of the disasters - some blend of volcanoes and magic - are related). In Valyria, it is implied that the Valyrians 'dug too deep' like Tolkien's dwarves, or pushed some kind of limits too far (limits of magic? cruelty?), bringing about their downfall in some way.

Well it's also implied the Faceless Men could have caused the Doom in AFFC when the Kindly Man tells Arya the story of their beginnings and at the end of his tale...

...The first gift had been given."

Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!"

"He would bring the gift to them as well... but that is a tale for another day...

...but we don't know enough yet and it could go either way. The Moonsingers could have helped with this if the Doom and the MS are connected, but this is extreme speculation, and I do see some possible connections.

Quote

At Hardhome, all we know is that it was a wildling encampment / town until its destruction. The links between the two are primarily in the descriptions of lights in the sky, fire, and demon haunting (perhaps firewyrms, if that's where the caves came from at hardhome) but those are effects, not causes. What we need is a mutual cause, but the situations are so different, hardhome a scrubby enclave on a cold ocean inhabited by wildlings, and the empire of Valyria. That's the fly - what makes hardhome similar to Valyria? Obviously the main candidate is the theory that the Valyrians tried to establish some kind of beachhead at Hardhome, perhaps interacting with a volcano there. A twist on this is the one in this thread about wildlings / moonsingers being present in both places. But what drew the Valyrians to hardhome? Seems they needed something.. perhaps something magical.. or a percieved threat.. anyway I'm sure this an important mystery, and I'm excited that we will get to find out something about hardhome in the next book.

The thing with Hardhome for me is I have seen posters wondering why the Valyrians never tried to conquer Westeros, and I think HH could have been an attempt particularly if there is in fact a volcano at HH, and given the similarites with HH and the Doom. The farthest Valyrian empire outpost we know of is Dragonstone, with a volcano and the Targaryens went there about 100 years after the doom of HH. I would think being so far from Valyria they would need a base camp that has a volcano. It is interesting to think about other motivations like you have brought up and like you I'm eager for more info.

Quote

P.S. The weirwood door on the FM temple has been bugging me ever since I read it. Perhaps they just traded for some weirwood.. or perhaps it's more that that.

The weirwood and ebony front door, and chairs, at the House of Black and White intrigues me too. What makes me the most curious is...

At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell. The doors are watching me, she thought.

ETA Welcome Ser Notappearinginthisfilm to the forum or atleast to for your first post, I know I was a long time lurker before I finally jumped in too.

Edited by Elaena Targaryen, 24 April 2012 - 06:11 PM.

[Queen of Winter]

Wow this is a great thread! (Thanks to brashcandy for pointing it out to me!). I've absolutely enjoyed reading it. Fantastic work Elaena Targaryen!

Elaena Targaryen, on 04 March 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Why or how is Arya connected to Moonsingers? First if the MS are from HH then they are most likely connected to the COTF. The children have different factions, the wood dancers, the greenseers, warging, and they sing the song of the earth. The MS could be the ones who have the power to cause damage like HH and the breaking of the Arm of Dorne. The MS temple has a dome where the windows show the phases of the moon so this reminded me of Bran when he was in the children’s cave. Now who “sings to the moon”…wolves do. Jon has a dream in ADWD where the moon is talking to him and as Ghost he sees the other wolves, Shaggydog wounded from a unicorn, and he sees Nymeria lift her head and “sing to the moon.” When Arya is the Blind Girl she says her nights are filled with moonlight and the songs of her pack. When Arya hears the voice in the godswood at Harrenhal, she first asks the Old Gods what she should do, then a wolf howls (which gives Arya gooseprickles) then Arya hears the voice that reminds her she has wolf blood. If Jon is a MS the Iron Bank would approve and Moon Boy may have watched over Sansa when she was in King’s Landing, lol, just trying to make connections.  Arya could have the strongest connection and it could be very important and much needed later.

Elaena, this might not have too much to do with the weirwood theories you all brought up, but I do want to add to something that was mentioned here about Arya and the moon. (Maybe it can help further some of your theories, maybe not! ).

So I just want to throw this out there. I'm pretty sure someone in this thread mentioned the Maiden/Mother/Crone aspect found in myths. Over in the current Sansa re-read thread "From Pawn to Player..", I compared some of the characters in Sansa's arc to Greek Gods/Goddesses. I thought Sansa paralleled the goddess Selene and  that Arya reminded me of Nemesis, as well as Artemis.  I'm sure you know that one of Artemis' symbols is the Moon,( her twin being brother Apollo, the Sun). And I thought this bit said of Artemis, curious:

"A poem of Callimachus to the goddess "who amuses herself on mountains with archery" imagines some charming vignettes: according to Callimachus, at three years old, Artemis, while sitting on the knee of her father, Zeus, asked him to grant her six wishes: to remain always a virgin; to have many names to set her apart from her brother Apollo; to be the Phaesporia or Light Bringer; to have a bow and arrow and a knee-length tunic so that she could hunt; to have sixty "daughters of Okeanos", all nine years of age, to be her choir; and for twenty Amnisides Nymphs as handmaidens to watch her dogs and bow while she rested. She wished for no city dedicated to her, but to rule the mountains, and for the ability to help women in the pains of childbirth."

Thus far Arya has had many names, The Ugly Little Girl, Cat of the Canals, etc. But I thought the part about wanting to be Light Bringer, was the most interesting, considering at the beginning of the thread someone mentioned AA, Nissa Nissa and Lightbringer, along with the Sun and Moon and the Red Comet. Maybe there's something to it....but what?

(Also a side note, I'm sure this doesn't have a thing to do with anything, but when Bran Vras mentioned the red/white aspect, and people were also talking about the Vale in general, I thought it interesting that Harrold Hardying's coat of arms are red and white diamonds).

[Elaena Targaryen]

boldunderlined, on 24 April 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

I hadn't noticed the connection between Mirri Maz Durr, her Moonsinger training and the bronze blade for the sacrifice, with Bran's vision of the weirwood sacrifice. That is interesting.

I do need to check I'm sure there are more things to connect but I think this is probably the most interesting.

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As for the Eyrie, I'd always thought they couldn't grow a weirwood because of the lack of blood spilled there. Not from battle, due to it's supposed impregnability, or from execution or sacrifice due to the moon door.

The lack of blood is intersting and I had not thought of it. I do suspect there was a weiwood there when the Andals came because they tried to grow a weirwood there but also the two huge thrones carved from weirwoods. I also wonder if the thrones still have influene like we have seen when Jaime had the dream on the weirwood stump and Theon's dream when he slept in Ned's bed made from weirwood.