Corpsicles

[CrypticWeirwood]

I have an idea about the two corpses that Jon stored in the ice cells, the ones that stubbornly stayed dead.

If the storm entombed them, well and good. He would need to burn them eventually, no doubt, but for the nonce they were bound with iron chains inside their cells. That, and being dead, should suffice to hold them harmless.

I think the reason they haven’t risen is because they were bound by iron chains. Remember this:

The Lords of Winterfell watched them pass. Their likenesses were carved into the stone s that sealed the tombs. In long rows they sat, blind eyes staring out into eternal darkness, while great stone direwolves curled round their feet. The shifti ng shadows made the stone figures seem to stir as the living passed by. By ancient custom an

iron

longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell,

to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts.

The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not.

and this:

The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and

iron

swords across their laps, but it’s not them I’m afraid of.

and this foreshadowing:

They’d only had one candle between them, and Bran’s eyes had gotten as big as saucers as he stared at the stone faces of the Kings of Winter, with their wolves at their feet and their

iron

swords across their laps. Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxiou s that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things th an spiders and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk.” That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand. When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour

.

and this one:

His baby brother had been wild as a winter storm since he learned Robb was riding off to war, weeping and angry by turns. He’d refused to eat, cried and screamed for most of a night, even punched Old Nan when she tried to sing him to sleep, and the next day he’d vanished. Robb had set half the castle searching for him, and when at last they’d found him down in the crypts, Rickon had slashed at them with a rusted

iron

sword he’d snatched from a dead king’s hand, and Shaggydog had come slavering out of the darkness like a green-eyed demon.

and more:

Osha led. Behind came Hodor, with Bran crouched low on his back so his head wouldn’t hit the ceiling. Meera followed with the torch, and Jojen brought up the rear, leading Rickon by the hand. Around and around they went, and up and up. Bran thought he could smell smoke now, but perhaps that was only the torch.

The door to the crypts was made of ironwood.

It was old and heavy, and lay at a slant to the ground.

And finally:

Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf.

My namesake.

Lord Beron Stark, who made common cause with Casterly Rock to war against Dagon Greyjoy, Lord of Pyke, in the days when the Seven Kingdoms were ruled in all but name by the bastard sorcerer men called Bloodraven. “That king is missing his sword,” Lady Dustin observed. It was true. Theon did not recall which king it was, but the longsword he should have held was gone. Streaks of rust remained to show where it had been. The sight disquieted him.

He had always heard that the

iron

in the sword kept the spirits of the dead locked within their tombs.

If a sword was missing …

There are ghosts in Winterfell. And I am one of them.

Jon’s dead stay dead because he bound them with iron chains. I predict that when they are released from their iron chains, they will only then rise, rise with burning blue eyes.

[Black Crow]

:agree:

Being bound or blocked by iron is a constant theme in Faerie magic

[Exitao]

You may be right. It would explain why Nan's story said they hated iron when it doesn't seem to harm them.

I had thought they hadn't been possessed yet and the Wall was preventing possession from occurring, as opposed to men carrying a dormant possessed corpse (wight), through the Wall during the day.

It makes sense. Is it possible that the Winterfell killings were wights then?

[jon rr stark]

Good spot that would apply if it was the dead mens spirit which were to come back. But the wrights are to be possessed by something else, the others whatever they transpire to be. I think you have highlighted something about the possibility of spirits or something in the crypts of winterfell, my favoured location for an ice dragon (or stone dragon summer saw) after the wall

[Black Crow]

We've been discussing stuff of this nature on the heresy thread and there is a strong feeling that the bones remember bit is significant and that when someone dies the spirit or soul remains sleeping and gradually fading away within the bones and that raising the dead, whether by Ice or Fire, is achieved by waking that spirit - which can't be done if either the bones are locked down with iron or destroyed by fire.

[Daario]

So you think maybe Ned is conversing with Howland and Glover at Greywater?

[Eyron]

Ah the good old iron theory... Yes, I think iron is very important and keeps the dead dead.

Another interesting bit is that the contents of obsidian is very high in iron, it is solidified magma, from the fires of a volcano, where dragons reside in ASoIaF. Frozen fire as it has been called. And dragonbone is high in iron, hence it's black colour. It may be important too since GRRM chose to make it so, when the dragon bones could have been regular bones. And he specifically chose obsidian to be the weapon that destroys the Others.

[Ser Lepus]

Forged iron has a strong connection to fire, same as obsidian/solidified magma...didn´t they say that obsidian was "solidified fire", or something like that?

Then again forged iron and steel don´t work against the Others the same way as obsidian do, so we better wait for further proof that iron has some effect on dead corpses/wights (for all we know the thing keeping the corpses safely dead could be the magic of the Wall).

[CrypticWeirwood]

(for all we know the thing keeping the corpses safely dead could be the magic of the Wall).

That’s what I’d always thought, too, but the way Martin keeps saying “iron” even when he doesn’t need to makes me think that there’s something to it. Why is the door to the crypts made of ironwood? Why mention that the missing swords are made of iron? Why mention that the chains are iron? I don’t see that it couldn’t just be a wooden door, or plain old chains without an adjective describing their composition. Taken all together, it all adds up to enough to make me really suspicious.

[Fantôme]

(for all we know the thing keeping the corpses safely dead could be the magic of the Wall).

If the wall is keeping dead bodies dead then I'm confused about something. Wasn't Othor's corpse before the wall when he rose? Or is it that the wall was unable to prevent anything because Othor was already a wight when they let him in? I remember Othor's eyes were already blue when they found it but then why was it "acting" like a regular corpse? Was it part of a plan to murder the Lord Commander?

[Ser Lepus]

If the wall is keeping dead bodies dead then I'm confused about something. Wasn't Othor's corpse before the wall when he rose? Or is it that the wall was unable to prevent anything because Othor was already a wight when they let him in? I remember Othor's eyes were already blue when they found it but then why was it "acting" like a regular corpse? Was it part of a plan to murder the Lord Commander?

I may be wrong, but I think they took him to the castle were the crows live, not to the ice cells beneath the Wall, while those more recent corpses were sent to the ice cells. I really should read those chapters again but I´m feeling lazy now.

[Exitao]

Yeah, he was probably already a wight, just dormant 'cause of daylight.

And Castle Black is past the wall, not part if it.

Which makes everything clear as mud.

[Eyron]

Othor and Jafer were also taken to the ice cells, and they were as you say Exitao, dormant or inactive when they were taken there. It was only the hand that was taken to the maesters tower.

The wights don't seem to rise just because it is night, since Othor and Jafer were found by Ghost at nightfall, and were left there until the next day when the search party went out to find them. But it's possible that they did rise that night and just sat there, waiting for the next day, I suppose.

They were not bound in iron, nor where they found in a weirwood grove (my secondary explanation for the two new guys in the ice cells not becoming wights is that they died in the weirwood grove, protected from the white mist).

[Black Crow]

It does raise a rather awkward question. We've discussed before how raising the dead appears to involve awakening the spirit in the body/bones. Othor and Jafer were, as you observe, "sleeping", without either weirwoods or iron to hold them down, and were carried in that condition through the Wall, before being wakened (again?) to go about their horrid occasions.

So who woke them?

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

It does raise a rather awkward question. We've discussed before how raising the dead appears to involve awakening the spirit in the body/bones. Othor and Jafer were, as you observe, "sleeping", without either weirwoods or iron to hold them down, and were carried in that condition through the Wall, before being wakened (again?) to go about their horrid occasions.

So who woke them?

It’s been said that magic constitutes the Wall as much as Ice. So I thought being inside or under the Wall would stop the Wights from rising. Hence why Coldhands can’t pass through the wall under his own steam, as it were. But if a Wight was carried through the Wall it would reanimate once on the other side.

But are you thinking that the Wall blocks or “jams” whatever animated the Wights? A bit like jamming a radar signal. And so there would need to be something or someone South if the Wall raising corpses?

[Fantôme]

It’s been said that magic constitutes the Wall as much as Ice. So I thought being inside or under the Wall would stop the Wights from rising. Hence why Coldhands can’t pass through the wall under his own steam, as it were. But if a Wight was carried through the Wall it would reanimate once on the other side. But are you thinking that the Wall blocks or “jams” whatever animated the Wights? A bit like jamming a radar signal. And so there would need to be something or someone South if the Wall raising corpses?

If there is not it would mean wights have autonomy to a certain extent. If we consider the wall does block the other's will/power or whatever.

[Eyron]

It's possible the Wall doesn't block skinchanging completely. Mormonts raven. I have long thought that it was Bloodraven skinchanging it. But, there is something troubling about this though, there could be someone else left in the raven - meaning that it is not Bloodraven skinchanging it. Who is it in that case?

The Wall seems to block the wolf-telepathy however. The wolves can't sense eachother across the Wall.

So if the wights are not controlled by skinchangers or some kind of telepathy, what could it be?

The free folk say that the wights come back home after they are resurrected, to kill their family. Could it be that the resurrection somehow only enables the ability to kill, and no other efforts are possible for the wights? Their feet take them home again, but they can't do anything else but kill the ones they find there? Like they are programmed for mayhem. All their humanity is gone and for some reason they must kill, and maybe there is a purpose to that which we just don't know yet.

[jarl the climber]

Is there any evidence that these people had been turned into wights? Is anyone who dies beyond the Wall automatically brought back if they die? Or is there a more involved process for them being reanimated? It wasn't clear to me that these corpses would ever show any activity.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Is there any evidence that these people had been turned into wights? Is anyone who dies beyond the Wall automatically brought back if they die? Or is there a more involved process for them being reanimated? It wasn't clear to me that these corpses would ever show any activity.

Tormund’s son died in his sleep of hypothermia. He rose with creepy blue eyes, and Tormund himself had to cut his own zombie son apart. Can you imagine how hard that must have been for him?

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

That was a heartfelt moment, and so much stronger for involving Tormund. For all his bravado and constant barrage of penis jokes, he is as affected, and perhaps even as scared, as the rest of them when it comes to the Others.