Why does Jaqen H'ghar want the key of the senile Archmaester Walgrave ?

[Golden Lady]

So It seems Jaqen H'ghar is the Alchimist of Oldtown. He killed Pate the novice and he took the key of the senile Archmaester Walgrave. This key is capable of opening any door in the Citadel. Why does he want that key? What is his plan ?

[Fire Eater]

There have been many threads about this subject. The general consensus seems to be that Jaqen needs the key to enter a vault beneath the Citadel with all the hidden books such as The Death of Dragons which is the only copy that exists.

[Golden Lady]

There have been many threads about this subject. The general consensus seems to be that Jaqen needs the key to enter a vault beneath the Citadel with all the hidden books such as The Death of Dragons which is the only copy that exists.

And why does he want those books ?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think all of the archmaesters have master keys. He chose the apprentice of the batty one because the batty one would be 1. less likely to notice that Pate's changed a bit and 2. if people in the Citadel are used to seeing Pate running around on errands for the batty one, they won't be suspicious if they see him snooping around.

As for the plan, I think he's after "The Death of Dragons," which is locked up in the Citadel, and possibly something else that's longer-term, evidenced by him still being there a while after he killed Pate.

ETA: He wants the book because it is probably the only accurate text that details how to kill or maybe even hatch a dragon. The Faceless Men may have been paid by Euron with his dragon egg (impetus to figure out how to hatch an egg), and they're anti-dragon in general and may be looking for a way to kill Dany's.

[Golden Lady]

The Faceless Men may have been paid by Euron with his dragon egg (impetus to figure out how to hatch an egg)

He is working for the Faceless Men or for his own ?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

He is working for the Faceless Men or for his own ?

Could be either one. If it's now an "official" policy of the Faceless Men to kill the dragons — not outlandish, really — he could be working on their behalf. Or he could be on his own. No way to know for sure until something happens to indicate one or the other.

[Fruitcakes]

Do we know for sure that the Faceless Men dislike dragons? We know that they started out as slaves. Dany is freeing slaves. Why would they destroy her most powerful weapons?

Do we know for sure that they have other agendas than just "giving the gift" to people on special request? There is to my knowledge nothing to suggest it in the novels so far?

Do we even know for sure that the alchemist is Jaqen? I know it's very likely that Jaqen is the alchemist, but it would be so extremely funny if he wasn't.

[The Taupe Grace]

Do we know for sure that the Faceless Men dislike dragons? We know that they started out as slaves. Dany is freeing slaves. Why would they destroy her most powerful weapons?

Do we know for sure that they have other agendas than just "giving the gift" to people on special request? There is to my knowledge nothing to suggest it in the novels so far?

Do we even know for sure that the alchemist is Jaqen? I know it's very likely that Jaqen is the alchemist, but it would be so extremely funny if he wasn't.

I think it's mentioned that the people of Braavos were descended from those who resisted and escaped the dragon-enforced slavery of Valyria, and did despise the use of dragons, so I can understand any long-harboured fear/resentment of power derived from dragons.

And from the description of Jaqen's appearance when he changes, and the appearance of the man who Pate comes to a sticky end with, it's pretty clear that it is Jaqen in Oldtown replacing Pate.

Interesting point on the 'other agendas' though, I would agree that their ultimate goals are to serve the Many-faced god and bring the gift of death etc. etc. but there seems to be a long-term quest for Jaqen H'ghar since he was mysteriously placed in the cells of King's Landing and I can't fathom that one. It's clear that he is not on a simple assasination mission - he killed Pate and the Kindly man says that assassinations must be clear-cut and not affect bystanders. I find it hard to believe that FM can go off on renegade missions of their own will, especially given their lack of self-identity, so one wonders - who hired him and why? (Varys?)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Do we know for sure that the Faceless Men dislike dragons? We know that they started out as slaves. Dany is freeing slaves. Why would they destroy her most powerful weapons?

Arya learns about how the Faceless Men started, giving the "gift" to slaves in Old Valyria. Seeing as how Dany's dragons will outlive her, possibly by centuries, and seeing as she can only ever ride one and might not ever fully control the other two, I'm going to say that their dislike of dragons outweights Dany's abolitionist adventures. It's not so simple as, "Well Dany is freeing slaves, why would they kill her dragons?"

Do we know for sure that they have other agendas than just "giving the gift" to people on special request? There is to my knowledge nothing to suggest it in the novels so far?

We don't know for sure, unless you think of Jaqen's mission in Oldtown as being one such "suggestion."

Do we even know for sure that the alchemist is Jaqen? I know it's very likely that Jaqen is the alchemist, but it would be so extremely funny if he wasn't.

He hasn't beaten us upside the head with it, but seeing as the Alchemist is described as looking exactly like Jaqen did when he left Arya, I'd say that that's the case.

[Fruitcakes]

(EDIT 1: Apple Martini, for the record: I wrote this before you wrote your answer to me, so I haven't counted in what you said. Will read now.)

But is it the dragons they hate, or is it slavery? Seems pretty illogical to me to weaken a person who is actually freeing slaves, if slavery was their problem in the first place. That is, if they meddle with anything but "giving the gift" at all.

For it being "pretty clear" that Jaqen is the alchemist, I said that I know it is very likely. The descriptions match, yes. It's still not fact that it is Jaqen, just a widely accepted - and reasonable - assumption.

What we know is that the Faceless Men can be hired to kill, but that the price is extremely high. It's not just a question of money - remember the Waif, who's father had to give half his fortune, and his daughter, to service in the temple. That was the price of one kill. Even killing Pate should have a price. Who paid it? The Faceless Men don't strike me as people who hand out discounts. For all I know they can have hidden agendas - it's just that we don't have any proof that they do. So inventing one ("they hate dragons, and will meddle in the struggle for power in the world because they hate dragons/dragonlords") is pure speculation. It can still be true, it's just important to remember that it's not a fact established by the author, but a wide-spread idea among the fans.

I too wonder why Jaqen was in the black cells in the first place. The mystery surrounding Jaqen is one of my favourite "whys, whats and hows" of the whole series, in fact.

EDIT 2: at Apple Martini again, we have the same information - nothing to add to your reply. The only difference I can see is that you might find it a bit more likely than I do that the Faceless Men have other agendas than the one we know about. All I can say is that it'll be exciting to find out, in time...

[Lady Hodor]

What if Jaqen has stolen Pate's face? We know from Arya that they take the skin off dead people and wear it like masks.

Whose to say Jaqen did not to the same with Pate, take the key, and wander through the citedal unnoticed?

[Golden Lady]

What if Jaqen has stolen Pate's face? We know from Arya that they take the skin off dead people and wear it like masks.

Whose to say Jaqen did not to the same with Pate, take the key, and wander through the citedal unnoticed?

I completely agree with you, he killed Pate and he is his impostor now, probably to get to the Citadel since Pate was working with Archmaester Walgrave.

[cuendillar]

What if Jaqen has stolen Pate's face? We know from Arya that they take the skin off dead people and wear it like masks.

Whose to say Jaqen did not to the same with Pate, take the key, and wander through the citedal unnoticed?

I'm almost certain he did. Pate was a bystander when Sam arrived to the Citadel - long after he was assassinated in the prologue in that same book. It has to be an impersonator, who is a Faceless Man to boot. Jaqen is the obvious answer to that problem.

The only real reasons I can see to why he chose Pate in particular is that he was among those assossiated with Marwyn the Mage - after all, if he just wanted to get into the Citadel, he could have enrolled as a new student. Pate is such an unlikely target for a targeted assassination that the purpose must be different. He was a nobody with neither high birth nor powerful enemies. It also seems slightly uncommon for an FM to kill just to cover a theft unless it's extremely important to them.

[Budj]

If his mission was to get "a book" out of the citadel then I assume that assuming Pate's identity is part of his plan and therefore necessary to the mission...the issue is I didn't know their faculties went beyond killing a target....but if the ultimate target is the dragons then this is still consistent with what we currently know of their mantra since getting the book is mission critical to slaying the dragons.

[The Mother of The Others]

He's moved in to the Citadel so that he's in position to do....something.... when the time is right.

If it is Jaqen (which I'm less than sure of), then he's being more careful this time since they caught him snooping around the first time and threw him into the black cells.

His cult kills things, so they want to be ready to kill dragons if need be, but they also want to watch how things are playing out, because at the moment there's not a lot of reason to kill the dragons. They (Braavosi) want regime change in Westeros, and the dragons are one of the best ways to bring that about. On the other hand, they survived the first dragon empire and wouldn't want to see the world go back under the thumb of dragon lords again, so they'd probably move against the dragons at some point to protect their interests as a free people.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But is it the dragons they hate, or is it slavery? Seems pretty illogical to me to weaken a person who is actually freeing slaves, if slavery was their problem in the first place. That is, if they meddle with anything but "giving the gift" at all.

They hate slavery, and in the old days, dragons were what allowed the Valyrians to enslave people. And as I already said, it doesn't matter that much that Dany is anti-slavery herself, because her dragons will more than likely outlive her, and there's no guarantee that whoever takes control of them will be anti-slavery, too. They're thinking long-term, not short-term. In the short term, yeah, Dany's freeing slaves. But in the long term, an abolitionist is not in any way guaranteed to get control of her dragons. That's why it's worth it to them to just kill the dragons if they can.

For it being "pretty clear" that Jaqen is the alchemist, I said that I know it is very likely. The descriptions match, yes. It's still not fact that it is Jaqen, just a widely accepted - and reasonable - assumption.

If you're waiting for GRRM to say, within the story, "Yes it's Jaqen," you're going to be waiting a long time. That's not really how he operates. He usually expects people to figure things like that out for themselves.

What we know is that the Faceless Men can be hired to kill, but that the price is extremely high. It's not just a question of money - remember the Waif, who's father had to give half his fortune, and his daughter, to service in the temple. That was the price of one kill. Even killing Pate should have a price. Who paid it? The Faceless Men don't strike me as people who hand out discounts. For all I know they can have hidden agendas - it's just that we don't have any proof that they do. So inventing one ("they hate dragons, and will meddle in the struggle for power in the world because they hate dragons/dragonlords") is pure speculation. It can still be true, it's just important to remember that it's not a fact established by the author, but a wide-spread idea among the fans.

I too wonder why Jaqen was in the black cells in the first place. The mystery surrounding Jaqen is one of my favourite "whys, whats and hows" of the whole series, in fact.

EDIT 2: at Apple Martini again, we have the same information - nothing to add to your reply. The only difference I can see is that you might find it a bit more likely than I do that the Faceless Men have other agendas than the one we know about. All I can say is that it'll be exciting to find out, in time...

You're free to disagree, but I think this is something they're doing for themselves. And I'm not "inventing" anything, thanks. If you read Arya's chapters when she's in Braavos, the Faceless Men have a deep hatred for the Valyrian Empire, and started by giving the gift to their slaves. There's even a hint that they themselves caused the Doom. So please do not accuse me of "inventing" anything when I say that the Faceless Men are anti-dragon. It's right there in the books.

There's also a theory that Euron paid the Faceless Men with his dragon egg to assassinate Balon. In that case, they would also be seeking information about dragons — hatching them, killing them or both.

[cuendillar]

Even if they don't plan to kill the dragons right away, it is still wise to figure out a way to do so. If the dragons end up in the wrong hands or someone pays them to give the gift to a dragon, it's a bit late to start figuring out a way. Much better to prepare in advance for such a near-inevitable, yet still highly difficult, undertaking.

[Arkash]

I still find it difficult to accept for a tall man to look like a small one... I have no worries about the face changing, but the height...

[Fruitcakes]

They hate slavery, and in the old days, dragons were what allowed the Valyrians to enslave people. And as I already said, it doesn't matter that much that Dany is anti-slavery herself, because her dragons will more than likely outlive her, and there's no guarantee that whoever takes control of them will be anti-slavery, too. They're thinking long-term, not short-term. In the short term, yeah, Dany's freeing slaves. But in the long term, an abolitionist is not in any way guaranteed to get control of her dragons. That's why it's worth it to them to just kill the dragons if they can.

Ok.

If you're waiting for GRRM to say, within the story, "Yes it's Jaqen," you're going to be waiting a long time. That's not really how he operates. He usually expects people to figure things like that out for themselves.

I will have to wait a long time to see how the story progresses, yes. Like everyone. In the meantime, we're hanging out at this forum, discussing the books, making up theories about what can happen, what could be the possible motivation for X, Y and Z for actions 1, 2 and 3 and so on, and talking about our favourite and not-so-favourite characters. And as long as there is textual evidence, or even hints, for something, it is interesting to look at the possible scenarios the "something" in question opens for. For instance, "The alchemist in Oldtown is Jaqen. The descriptions match". But as long as the story hasn't progressed to the point where we know Jaqen to be the alchemist, and why he is in Oldtown, and how this whole story fits together, it's also interesting to look at different options, don't you think? There was another thread I saw the other day, where another member of the forum pointed out that there is another character which matches the description made of the new face Jaqen assumes - namely Daario Naharis. Now, this could mean nothing, and it could mean everything.

I find Jaqen very enigmatic and intriguing. There is so much we don't know about him. We don't know how he came to be in the cage with Rorge and Biter in the first place, or in the black cells. Some theorize that he is Syrio, others say that the timeline doesn't allow him to be Syrio. I don't know the exact details of those discussions and won't go into the probability for the one or other now, I'm just saying what the most popular theories are.

Then, he tells Arya that "the red god" has been cheated of three deaths, so she can name three men he'll kill for her. When Arya says "Jaqen H'gar" as her third name, he seems to be distressed. He has sworn an oath on tons of different gods to kill whoever it is she speaks the name of. He agrees to help her resque the northmen and kills several people in the process. When we later learn, through Arya's chapters in ADWD, more about the Faceless Men's code, his "rescue action" in Harrenhal seems more mysterious - do his actions in Harrenhal really fit the FM's code?

Then, the alchemist, who fits the description of Jaqen's new face. He starts out by killing Pate, and almost certainly taking Pate's face and identity after that, since we meet "Pate" again. Still, Pate is an instrumental death, something which absolutely doesn't fit the FM's code as we know it.

Assuming Jaqen = Alchemist = Pate, we have some new options;

1) FM have some code which we don't know about yet, "higher goals",

2) Jaqen isn't a FM, though he knows their stuff: Jaqen is a rogue.

Or, there is something else going on, namely that Jaqen is NOT the alchemist/Pate. It's been pointed out that one other character in the books fit the same description, and that is Daario. As said above, this might mean nothing, but it might also mean everything.

I think all these three possibilities are worth looking at, especially since we have years to wait for the next book, so lots of time to ask "what if I'm wrong".

You're free to disagree, but I think this is something they're doing for themselves. And I'm not "inventing" anything, thanks. If you read Arya's chapters when she's in Braavos, the Faceless Men have a deep hatred for the Valyrian Empire, and started by giving the gift to their slaves. There's even a hint that they themselves caused the Doom. So please do not accuse me of "inventing" anything when I say that the Faceless Men are anti-dragon. It's right there in the books.

There's also a theory that Euron paid the Faceless Men with his dragon egg to assassinate Balon. In that case, they would also be seeking information about dragons — hatching them, killing them or both.

I didn't accuse you of inventing anything. I have read the same chapters that you have, but I haven't gotten the same strong impression of the FM being so anti-dragon as you argue. I am re-reading the books now, currently halfway in ADWD, and reading in the forums in between because I think it's cool to see what others have picked up that I have missed. I'm not sure which exact passages you have in mind when you say that "the Faceless Men have a deep hatred for the Valyrian Empire", "There's even a hint that they themselves caused the Doom" and "the Faceless Men are anti-dragon". I have no reason to say that you are wrong, I just don't know which exact passages you're on. These are long books, and I don't have it in my head exactly where to start looking in each case. Before you say "well read the Arya chapters", I'll say that "yes, I am reading". But that's not saying that I'll pick up the exact same things you do. And I still want to see if there is anything in the three different options I listed above, before I settle for option 1.

[aryagonnakill]

im gonna rule out the possibility that dario is in oldtown for you based on the laws of physics in this world and the asoiaf world. If you think it could possibly mean that dario is another faceless man using the same face as jaqen then that is somewhat interesting however i see no target for him to have that he could not have already killed a dozen times.

In terms of the jaqen in the citadel as pate theory tho i see two possibilities of how this occured.

1. the fm have been hired to kill a dragon and jaqen is simply doing what he must in order to kill a dragon, which is learn how. I do not think grrm will tarnish the fm's ora by making them actually have a quest for power: ie trying to hatch a dragon egg. In this case Jaqen may have been in the black cells to speak with varys for the reason of gathering information. It could not have been to recieve an assignment from varys if jaqen is still with the fm because they discuss who will do the task together in bravos, unless the fm accepted a blank check type payment where varys/ilyrio got a fm who had never been to westeros to go to varys and be told who to kill.

2. Jaqen has gone rogue from the fm which he was definitely a part of at one time, in which case his goals could be to hatch a dragon egg which he found while in the black cells of the red keep, or that he stole from the fm which was paid by euron.

I originally did not like the theory that euron hired the faceless men but while typing this i remembered all the times victarion mentions kinslaying. I had always taken that as a foreshadow of damphair killing euron and that eurons worlock simply foresaw his brothers death so euron returned. Remember that balon greyjoys death can still be partially laid at the hands of stannis and melissandre... perhaps.

I do believe there is another possibility all together that we have not examined at all and that is that the fm are not after knowledge about dragons but of white walkers.