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[Book Spoilers] Bran and Rickon


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#1 Bride of Winter

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 12:17 PM

Do you think Robb and Catelyn are ever going to find out about Bran and Rickon's "deaths"?

The two main things that their deaths served as a catalyst for (Robb/Jeyne and Cat freeing Jaime) happened on their own, and they made a point that ravens aren't getting out. I don't see what else them finding about Bran and Rickon's deaths later on would add.

That being said though, I'm just disappointed because the major point of Bran and Rickon's "deaths" were what they kicked off. If Robb was going to sleep with Jeyne and Cat was going to free Jaime on their own time, there's really no point in faking the boys' deaths. Also it sort of implies that Robb and Catelyn were screwed from the beginning by the nature of their stupidity, which is wrong. They acted out of impulse and hbo really failed to show that, in my opinion.

Edited by Bride of Winter, 21 May 2012 - 04:51 PM.


#2 Francisco R. Fonseca

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 05:12 PM

I've found this interesting as well....but talking to family who are non-book fans they didn't realize it was "their" bodies hanging in EO7 so the shock in the book for them wasn't as much in last night's episode as it was in the book for a first time reader. I'm not sure it was done the best it could be. I agree w/your point though on the motivations of Cat and Robb. I wish they had have gone about that differently, at least not mentioning ravens were not getting out.

#3 Mulled Wino

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 05:36 PM

They'll find out for sure.

#4 Michaelj

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 05:59 PM

I think they'll find out season 3 because Ramsay will attack Winterfell, sack it and notice the Starks are dead. He'll send a raven informing them that Theon sacked Winterfell aswell as murdering the Starks.

#5 Zappotack

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 11:34 PM

I thought their deaths looked ridiculous and very unconvincing but I wander could a tv show really show the graphic from the books. Its different from Ned because these are kids...

#6 Tourniquet

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:50 AM

Could there be any other event that learning of the Bran and Rickon's death prompts Robb or Cat to do? Im drawing a blank...?

#7 Darth Pipes

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:53 AM

Not only did the murder of Bran and Rickon lead Robb and Cat to do irrational things that led to their downfall, it also made Theon's betrayel worse because unintentionally helped set the events that got Rob and Cat killed.

#8 Bride of Winter

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:16 PM

Not only did the murder of Bran and Rickon lead Robb and Cat to do irrational things that led to their downfall, it also made Theon's betrayel worse because unintentionally helped set the events that got Rob and Cat killed.


Could there be any other event that learning of the Bran and Rickon's death prompts Robb or Cat to do? Im drawing a blank...?


See, this is exactly what I'm worried about. their deaths have huge long term effects regarding Theon's guilt of his betrayal because he pretty much kicked Robb's and Cat's downfalls into motion. But there aren't any more specific things that Robb and Cat do as a reaction to Bran and Rickon's deaths. And the writers haven't proved themselves to be concerned with overarching themes, so I'm really worried that unless they add in more fuck-ups by Robb and Cat* they won't see a point in making them find out about the boys.

*and making them make more mistakes would just make them seem even more incompetent, so it's a lose-lose situation imo.

#9 Jolene Brown

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:20 PM

Also, no matter how devastated the actors play it, I don't think their grief will have the same impact when we know that Bran and Rickon are alive. I actually can't remember - had that been revealed in the book when Catelyn and Robb made their respective bad decisions? I think when Catelyn freed Jaime, it was not yet clear that Bran/Rickon were alive, but by the time we found out about Robb's marriage, it was early in the third book. I suppose many readers suspected Bran/Rickon were alive anyway, but it's different than knowing for sure.

#10 Sweet Sister

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 03:44 AM

@Jolene Brown: IIRC, it's not revealed until the last chapter of ACOK.

I agree that Cat and Robb not learning of Bran and Rickon's deaths completely takes viewer sympathy away from those two characters. Personally, I thought Cat's decision to free Jaime was much more believable when she thought that Robb was the only member of her family left if she could not get the girls. Also, Robb doesnt seem like such a bonehead when he forsakes his vow to the Freys as he did so during a time of mourning. IDK, I haven't been very impressed with the charcter development this season but my friends who have not read the book differ totally.

P.S. I'm very excited to make my first post on the wonderful forum after weeks of lurking! Hello, everyone!

#11 Bride of Winter

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 05:35 AM

@Jolene Brown: IIRC, it's not revealed until the last chapter of ACOK.

I agree that Cat and Robb not learning of Bran and Rickon's deaths completely takes viewer sympathy away from those two characters. Personally, I thought Cat's decision to free Jaime was much more believable when she thought that Robb was the only member of her family left if she could not get the girls. Also, Robb doesnt seem like such a bonehead when he forsakes his vow to the Freys as he did so during a time of mourning. IDK, I haven't been very impressed with the charcter development this season but my friends who have not read the book differ totally.

P.S. I'm very excited to make my first post on the wonderful forum after weeks of lurking! Hello, everyone!

I completely agree. the characterization's just so off with everyone this season. all of my friends who haven't read the books are content but I'm over here screaming "no! that's not how it's supposed to be!!"

and hi! welcome to the forum! /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

#12 House Balstroko

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 06:48 AM

While I agree, the way events played out in the book is a lot more powerful, I disagree with the notion that freing Jaime is illogical without knowledge of Bran and Rickon's 'fate'.
If you look at it from Cat's perspective, she knows Theon has taken Winterfell, so she now, only has Robb who is not a hostage. She can try to bargain with the Lannister;s through Jaime for her daughters, but can't with Theon since she has nothing to exchange for Bran and Rickon. Given the context of the show the release works very well.

#13 protar

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 11:08 AM

Is anyone else also a bit peeved at the reveal of Bran and Rickon being in the crypts? This would've been excellent as a reveal in episode 10. Here it just came across as weak. I'm starting to think they might be moving the Sack of Winterfell to S3 so it can open with a bang, else why waste such good potential?

#14 SerMixalot

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 11:43 AM

I think they'll find out season 3 because Ramsay will attack Winterfell, sack it and notice the Starks are dead. He'll send a raven informing them that Theon sacked Winterfell aswell as murdering the Starks.


why would ramsey have brought ravens with him? small probably pointless point but....

#15 Rickon is FIERCE

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 09:44 AM

P.S. I'm very excited to make my first post on the wonderful forum after weeks of lurking! Hello, everyone!


Welcome.

Is anyone else also a bit peeved at the reveal of Bran and Rickon being in the crypts? This would've been excellent as a reveal in episode 10. Here it just came across as weak. I'm starting to think they might be moving the Sack of Winterfell to S3 so it can open with a bang, else why waste such good potential?


I am. Even if the viewers didn't believe B/R were dead, non-readers would still have the looming suspense/question of "Where are they??" Suspense is never a bad thing in storytelling. Not sure why they chose to do it this way. Perhaps there will turn out to be a reason, but I'm waiting for that like I'm waiting for a reason for Dontos' appearance in ep. 1, Tyrion's obtaining of the diuretic in another early ep., the point of the Tywin/Arya scenes other than showing us a new cool interaction just for its own sake, on and on...

You may be right on the sack, but I rather think not, simply because so much needs to go into seasons 3/4 already. However it is possible they'll move it considering how much is supposed to wrap up in the next two eps to finish off Clash. I'm really not sure why we had to have so much from Storm find its way into this season, other than to make sure actors like NCW had something to do when bookwise they'd be missing for nearly an entire season.

#16 Michaelj

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 03:30 PM

why would ramsey have brought ravens with him? small probably pointless point but....


He has to get to return to send a raven eventually...

#17 RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:38 AM

The question is are D&D that blasphamous that they may add Lewin sending a raven to notify them that they are alive, maybe they'll find out just before the RW and go from happiness to death. Cat may convince Robb not to let anyone else know incase it jepodises the boys lives. I would not put it passed them to screw with the storyline that much.

#18 LordMarani

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 06:31 AM

I think the fake deaths were really poorly handled.

With the obvious foreshadowing ("I'll send two orphan boys", "The boys we sent live here" etc. etc.) everyone already knew that those were the ones killed instead of Bran and Rickon. It was only a question of when they return, instead of if.

Without that foreshadowing and just Bran and Rickon escaping (and Theon finding the Walnut in the woods) the deaths would have been a lot more shocking to readers, and then they could be revealed in the series finale, cheering Osha for her wits. Instead, even Luwin knows where they are in the next episode? Osha running around in Winterfell with nobody noticing?


Another plotline so much weaker than it could have been. *sigh*

#19 RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:19 AM

Also if I recall in the books weren't Bran & Rickon hiding in a house or stone building of some kind, then we get Theon POV of the dogs loosing the scent at this millers house. You thought how are they going to escape then bang two heads on a spike and Theon telling himself he had to do it so he didn't look weak. Would that be so hard to do on telly. Have the boys hiding in a building then next shot over Theon's shoulder seeing the miller's house, thunders down on horse. Next scene he's convincing Lewin he had to do it showing small amounts of remorse, Lewin devestated, heads shown on spikes. Wait until Ep10 for the reveal. I can only think they didn't want the audience to think they were dead for a second. Maybe they thought people would turn off after???

#20 Tormund_BloggersBane

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:06 PM

...And where is Ramsay through all of this? I don't know how they can tie in his involvement now that the miller's boys are already tarred and hung without him even been introduced.

There are some fairly big plot failings so far that will only be amplified as the story progresses.