Learning to lead? A re-read project of the Dany and Jon ADWD chapters

[butterbumps!]

Thanks for a great review Butterbumps!

I'll start by saying that for me the greatest contradiction between this Jon chapter and Dany's last was that it was this chapter that cause me to really start respecting him as a leader while with Dany it was her last one that made me really doubt her political and leadership skils so this post may be a little long.

A few observations and comparisons I have to make for this chapter:

- I was again impressed seeing Jon preparing not only by reading books but by also talking to people like Val in order to be as informed as possible. Have we ever seen Dany actually trying to learn something by reading? Dany seems to me that bases her knowledge mostly on experiences. This is a good thing but it worries that she never seems concern about learning more. Her philosophy in this matter seems to be ''I'll cross that bridge when I get there'' and this leaves her wholy unprepared to deal with new situations and at the mercy of those who know better than her, like is happening in Mereen. Knowledge is a weapon and Jon seems intended to use it as such. I think that one Dany's biggest problems in ruling is that she's simply not prepared. Growing up as she did this is no wonder but what really makes me doubt her is that I haven't seen any attempts on her part to correct this.

With the visit to Mole's Town we see again Jon applying his knowledge. He doesn't stumble blindly to make the offer to the wildings. He already has a personal experience with them but also recalls Val's and Mance words. In other words he has prepared himself as much as he can.

I think you're hitting on something important here. Jon repeatedly goes out of his way to seek information when preparing for a new situation, and draws consciously on his collected body of knowledge and experience when applying solutions. In fairness, Jon's experience and education have had a big impact on this. He's of the North and ruling in the North. He's not quite a noble (he's removed from noble hereditary privilege), but has had the advantages reserved for noble families. I still think there's something commendable about knowing that there are things you don't know, which leads you to listen, observe and file away for later use.

One thing I think is really interesting is that you point to Dany's "I'll cross that bridge when we get there." I agree with this, and I don't necessarily think this is a poor life philosophy, though I do think it's harmful for a ruler-- and harmful to herself as a ruler especially. However, as you mention, en route back to the Wall, Bowen raises some legitimate concerns. Jon doesn't outright dismiss them, but does very clearly take a "we'll cross that bridge when we get there" answer to Bowen. I think the difference between this and Dany is that Jon has invested time in getting to know the Wildlings and knows that Bowen hasn't (and by extension, that he has reason to believe Bowen is less informed on the subject than he), so he feels confident that he's making an educated guess that everything will work out according to plan.

Interestingly, at the beginning of this chapter, Jon thinks of Bowen (paraphrased) narrowly focused and Othell as "unimaginative." When Bowen raises concerns about integrating Wildlings before they go to Mole's town, he tries to implore Jon to think on what Jeor might do in this situation. Jon replies:

"[Lord Commander Mormont] is dead. And not at Wildling hands, but at the hands of his own men."

(Dun Dun Dun). Jon might understand Wildlings, but perhaps he is over/under estimating his own men despite recognition of this mutiny.

[Dr. Pepper]

Excellent review as always, butterbumps!!

He also sees that there are a few notable men who are not broken, and potentially dangerous: the Thenns, Halleck (Harma Dogshead’s brother) and others: “There are wolves amongst these sheep, still.” He thinks on something Val said that “Men are men and women are women, no matter which side of the Wall we were born on. Good men and bad, heroes and villains…”

I never thought before what an incredible advisor Val is to Jon. I have noticed that Jon is more apt to recognize the value he receives from women, no matter their status. He internalized a lot of his lessons from Ygritte and is now doing so with Val. Dany, on the other hand, seems to only seriously consider female advice when it's offered by a woman of high status. The Green Grace, for example. She consistently disregards Irri and Jhiqui as foolish girls with foolish words, even when they were her primary source for Dothraki knowledge. One might think that Jon should be loathing of women since the major female figure in his life was cold and distant toward him that he might not be so inclined to be accepting of female counsel. Was Cat more of a mentor than he (or we) think she was? Are all of her admonishments (if not from her own mouth, then through the mouths of her children) about remembering his status what helps guide him? Most times when he thinks of her, it isn't in the kindest of terms. I wonder if he considers how much positive influence she actually had on him.

It all depends on where you’re standing

The Magnar of Thenn, Sigorn, is verbally hostile to Jon; Sigorn’s father was killed during the attack on Castle Black and he harbors ill will toward the Watch. Jon thinks:

But says:

I think this is an interesting comparison to Dany’s court scene. Dany had not seen the clear parallel between some of the petitioners’ appeals and those of her own—notably, the woman and the house and the boy whose family was killed and raped. As head of Meereen, Dany chose the “usurpers’” side as the best course for keeping the peace. Would she have still sided with the “usurpers” if she recognized the parallel to her own situation? I can’t tell if she fails to see this because she is out of touch with herself (i.e. not introspective enough) or if she has just put blinders on as ruler of Meereen and thus sees everything as discrete atomistic pieces (which connects to the pyramid-architecture symbolism). Also of note, it seems that Dany feels sympathy for these petitioners, but necessarily a personal empathy, in that she does not connect their plight to her own.

I think there are two issues here. Jon has lived through the experience of his family being killed and usurped while Dany's knowledge of her own family's murder and usurpation is abstract and distanced. What she knows of her family's plight is more like a scary bedtime story. Yes, it might be about her immediate relatives, but when I consider how I feel when I hear stories about relatives I never knew who lived in a place I've never visited and had a history that isn't included in the story, I don't connect to them as my blood, but as characters separate from myself.

Bedtime stories serve their purpose for children. They contain morals and guidelines mixed in with scary dogs and such. I'm wondering if Dany has internalized Viserys' stories about their family in the same way a child internalizes, say, Goodnight Moon where the lesson is to go to not go to bed with unresolved issues in your household. Most people probably don't consider that many of their views in adulthood are shaped by simple childhood stories. As much as Dany feared and loathed her brother, he was still the only constant in her life. Part of me thinks she continues with her quest to reclaim her father's usurped throne in Viserys honor even though she knows in her gut that he was wrong in his understanding of the moral of the stories. She always dismisses Barristan so quickly when he starts telling what he knew of her family (even though he ain't exactly telling the truth). Is it because she fears recognizing her brother's stories were more of the children's bedtime variety will somehow dishonor him?

Grr, I wish I were more articulate and could explain myself better. Does any of this make sense?

I think Dany fails to connect personally with the Meereenese is because she has never intended to stay. She wasn't aware that solving the slave issue wasn't as simple as saying Dracarys. It takes work. Decades, even centuries, are required to change a culture. Truly connecting with people is the first step to setting roots. It's much more difficult to leave a place when you know your neighbor's likes and dislikes. I'm starting to understand her in this regard. Jon, on the other hand, is already where he intends to be for the rest of his life. He has an invested interest in knowing the people around him and thinking of meaningful and sustainable solutions to problems they face. I imagine that if Dany accepts that Viserys was not much more than a story teller, we may see her recognize the parallel of her own situation and perhaps even start to get to know her people and think long-term investment in the region.

Safe, starved, slaves?

A bunch of Wildlings hurl accusations at Jon that he is keeping them “safe but starved.” (compare to Reznak’s pleas to Dany when she considers leaving for Westeros) Jon tells them that the “food’s for fighters,” and if they wish to eat better, then they can work for their meals. At this, a woman shouts:

Like Dany’s freemen, the Wildlings would be compensated in food and shelter for their service; objectively speaking, are both these Wildlings and Dany’s freemen “slaves?”

There are certainly some similarities between the wildlings and Dany's freedmen. But the situations are very different. The wildlings attacked the wall because they were escaping from something worse than kneeling and working for a boss. Jon and his black brothers aren't asking them to help him create a rich and powerful nation. He's not even asking them to give up their identity or swear an oath or vow. He's asking them to help him protect them from what they were running away from and by doing so, they will be given the same exact provisions his own brothers receive: food and shelter.

Dany may have freed the slaves and she may be putting them to work in exchange for food and shelter, but it's not the same food and shelter she and her court and the former slavers receive. It's exactly what they already had.

They follow the man, not the title

When Halleck chose to volunteer, many others flooded forth. Jon muses on Mance’s wit and wisdom:

So what are trappings of power? Are Bowen and Melisandre correct in believing that Jon ought to put on floppy ears? How important are “floppy ears” exactly?

I think floppy ears can be very important. Jon's floppy ears with the wildlings isn't clothing or grand quarters. His floppy ears are the words he speaks to them. His floppy mouth, so to speak. As Mance told him, the wildlings don't follow accidents of birth or fine clothes and armor or banners. They follow the person and what the person says matters just as much as their skills with arms. His manner of speech is different with the wildlings. For one, he seems more long winded. Most wildlings we've met like to talk.

His black brothers, however, were raised in a culture where visual floppy ears matter. I think Bowen and Melisandre are right that he needs to don them when he's Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. There's a fine line he must walk considering he's also dealing with a King and his men left behind at the wall. He needn't take the King's Tower, but perhaps some wall watchers could be sacrificed for a day or two in order to make one of the other towers more habitable would suffice.

There's a fine balance he must walk since he's attempting to unite two very different groups of people who are fighting the same cause. Floppy mouth for one group, floppy ears for another.

And finally,

"[Lord Commander Mormont] is dead. And not at Wildling hands, but at the hands of his own men."

(Dun Dun Dun). Jon might understand Wildlings, but perhaps he is over/under estimating his own men despite recognition of this mutiny.

Dolorous Edd makes a very astute remark about Bowen Marsh that I think fits this.

“Pomegranates. All those seeds. A man could choke to death. I’d sooner have a turnip. Never knew a turnip to do a man any harm.”

Waiting patiently for Blisscraft, our Lord of Symbolism, to chime in. :)

[Lummel]

...They follow the man, not the title

When Halleck chose to volunteer, many others flooded forth. Jon muses on Mance’s wit and wisdom:

“Halleck was a man of note. Mance was not wrong. ‘Free folk don’t follow names, or little cloth animals sewn on a tunic. They won’t dance for coins, they don’t care how you style yourself or what that chain of office means or who your grandshire was. They follow strength. They follow the man.’”...

This reminds me of Varys' riddle about the sellsword, the merchant and the king in ACOK. Power is where it is believed to reside. The trapping of power south of the Wall obscure the issue, while north of the Wall we see it in it's pure form of a person being prepared to follow another purely because of their personal qualities.

ETA I apologise for the use of pure twice in the same sentence. A day of shame. :(

[fassreiter]

I am a little late, but: Awesome thoughts about the Wall and Le Corbusier! His work is one of the most fascinating phenomena of modern societies, I think his projects are about the most tragic and fascinating attempts to (re)construct an utterly human humanity, and there is great symbolism in his utterly failing. And what beauty there is some of his works and his writings! By the way, isn't Le Corbusier's name meant to allude to the name 'The Raven'? ;)

About Jon: I wanted to add that the speech he gives to the Wildlings is an almost exact quote of what Mance Rayder told Jon about the Others in ASOS. Which is one of my favourite scenes in the whole series. I liked that GRRM chose to include it into the scene in ADWD.

PS: Not that it matters, but thinking about Le Corbusier and coincidence of names, I just remembered being an avid teenage fangirl once for the artist who chose to call himself Man Ray. My little moment of dada for today. I also adored Marcel Duchamp. A wildling if there ever was one! Now I am going to stop. Awesome thread, by the way!

[butterbumps!]

I never thought before what an incredible advisor Val is to Jon. I have noticed that Jon is more apt to recognize the value he receives from women, no matter their status. He internalized a lot of his lessons from Ygritte and is now doing so with Val. Dany, on the other hand, seems to only seriously consider female advice when it's offered by a woman of high status. The Green Grace, for example. She consistently disregards Irri and Jhiqui as foolish girls with foolish words, even when they were her primary source for Dothraki knowledge. One might think that Jon should be loathing of women since the major female figure in his life was cold and distant toward him that he might not be so inclined to be accepting of female counsel. Was Cat more of a mentor than he (or we) think she was? Are all of her admonishments (if not from her own mouth, then through the mouths of her children) about remembering his status what helps guide him? Most times when he thinks of her, it isn't in the kindest of terms. I wonder if he considers how much positive influence she actually had on him.

You know what, I'd gotten a slightly different feeling about this. I'd thought Jon draws from any source he finds credible regardless of status or gender-- for instance, he takes to heart what Sam, Val, Mance, his father, Ygritte have said, but then considers Melisandre fraudulent, Stannis limited in Northern knowledge and Bowen narrow minded. I think it's about establishing credibility for him.

With Dany, I'd actually thought she was more inclined to trust people based on her sensing that they have power/ strength, as well as her admiration for them, especially women. I think Dany has an uncanny ability to perceive a person's power and strength; relatedly, these are qualities she admires and sees in herself (and wishes to hone). When she senses that someone is powerful, strong and even ruthless, I think that she feels an instant admiration for them (Mirri Maz, Drogo, Daario, the GG, Brown Ben). I think that she then projects the admiration she feels for them back onto herself; she admires and respects them, and takes for granted that they reciprocate this admiration, and that they are trustworthy. I think she believes that when she senses someone's strength and admires them for it, that she assumes that their strength will be used benevolently toward her.

I think that Dany is frequently swayed by gender. She immediately trusted Mirri despite Mirri's being being a slave at that point; I think that Dany sensed some power that Mirri carried that others were afraid of or didn't want to see. Her interactions with the Green Grace are the most egregious to this end. In hindsight, Dany thinks on Mirri as a likely "treason," but this does not stop her from questioning the GG's motives. We see Dany mull over those she believes could be untrustworthy-- Reznak, the Shavepate, Hizdahr-- but never thinks the GG is ill-intended. And let's not forget Quaithe. I believe that for Dany, women tend to be above suspicion, especially if they are powerful in some way.

I think there's something interesting going on with Irri/ Jiqui and Missendei, however. Dany takes their advice about the Dothraki when she was with the Dothraki, but I think Dany rejects their advice as superstition once they leave the Dothraki. Conversely, Dany will listen to everything Missendei says. I don't know if this is a bad thing necessarily-- Missendei has a much more cosmopolitan knowledge that transcends a singular culture. Missendei provides one of the few windows to her enemy at the moment (given that Missendei was enslaved, and as a slave-scribe, was privy to a lot of the inner workings of the slavers). Dany may be sensing that Irri/ Jiqui's Dothraki view is too limited and irrelevant for the advice she needs presently, which I would see as a sign of growth perhaps.

This reminds me of Varys' riddle about the sellsword, the merchant and the king in ACOK. Power is where it is believed to reside. The trapping of power south of the Wall obscure the issue, while north of the Wall we see it in it's pure form of a person being prepared to follow another purely because of their personal qualities.

I thought of the same thing too! When darkness falls, no amount of ritual or display will reify a leader.

I am a little late, but: Awesome thoughts about the Wall and Le Corbusier! His work is one of the most fascinating phenomena of modern societies, I think his projects are about the most tragic and fascinating attempts to (re)construct an utterly human humanity, and there is great symbolism in his utterly failing. And what beauty there is some of his works and his writings! By the way, isn't Le Corbusier's name meant to allude to the name 'The Raven'? ;)

About Jon: I wanted to add that the speech he gives to the Wildlings is an almost exact quote of what Mance Rayder told Jon about the Others in ASOS. Which is one of my favourite scenes in the whole series. I liked that GRRM chose to include it into the scene in ADWD.

Yea, Corb is really fascinating to me too-- his thoughts about saving the world through design are kind of apropos to this as well ("Architecture not Revolution" seems to be Bran the Builder's take :cool4: ). You're right though-- I'm pretty sure "Le Cobusier" is a play on a name that ran in his family-- Lecorbesier-- that he merged with "corbeau"(crow).

[Winterfellian]

(Dun Dun Dun). Jon might understand Wildlings, but perhaps he is over/under estimating his own men despite recognition of this mutiny.

100% agree that's why I wrote that this is a scene where his dettachment is playing against him. You have to wonder that after what happen to Mormont, he didn't dwell much on this fact and the danger his potential brothers may represent. This might be because he knows that those who killed the Old Bear where some of the worst the Night's Watch have to offer (rapers, murderers and the like) It is possible he believed his status as Lord Commander as well as Ghost could protect him. Not a very smart move anyway.

About Dany seeking more education I think Dr. Pepper has hit a very important point:

I think Dany fails to connect personally with the Meereenese is because she has never intended to stay. She wasn't aware that solving the slave issue wasn't as simple as saying Dracarys. It takes work. Decades, even centuries, are required to change a culture. Truly connecting with people is the first step to setting roots. It's much more difficult to leave a place when you know your neighbor's likes and dislikes. I'm starting to understand her in this regard. Jon, on the other hand, is already where he intends to be for the rest of his life. He has an invested interest in knowing the people around him and thinking of meaningful and sustainable solutions to problems they face. I imagine that if Dany accepts that Viserys was not much more than a story teller, we may see her recognize the parallel of her own situation and perhaps even start to get to know her people and think long-term investment in the region.

I agree about the part about Mereen. Jon knows that his place is the wall and has a foe to face; he's not going anywhere so his preparing for the task as much as he can. While Dany's intentions toward Mereens are good and she's doing sacrifices like marrying Hizdar, she will never be one of them. She sees them as slavers, and not necessarily as a culture in itself; in others words, she doesn't see herself meant to stay there long (a naive call considering the changes she set in motion with her actions).

While I can excuse her for not wanting to educate herself more about the Ghiscary, what about Westeros? So far she has hardly taking a few steps toward knowing more about the place she considers home, Westeros. In Barristan she has this great source of information and yet she doesn't reach for it (this is specially frustrating in comparing Jon's case where he misses Aemon for his wisdom and knowledge).

I do wonder if deep down she doesn't considers Westeros as home but rather as a symbolic place connected to Viserys bedtime stories like the explanation Dr. Peppers pointed out.

Dany is clearly afraid of the truths Barristan has to tell her and constantly put her overdue talk with him.

I think there are two issues here. Jon has lived through the experience of his family being killed and usurped while Dany's knowledge of her own family's murder and usurpation is abstract and distanced. What she knows of her family's plight is more like a scary bedtime story. Yes, it might be about her immediate relatives, but when I consider how I feel when I hear stories about relatives I never knew who lived in a place I've never visited and had a history that isn't included in the story, I don't connect to them as my blood, but as characters separate from myself.

One of the things that struck me in this Jon chapter is the parallel he draws between the Magnar and himself

I will feel the same way if I was asked to join forces with the Lannisters

While with Dany she failed to recognize the similarities between herself and the woman who came into her court because when she fled someone took over her house.

I think this happened because as you pointed out she didn't experienced the death of her family members the same way Jon did but rather knows about it in a more abstract way. This might be the reason she wasnt able to relate completely or at least draw comparisons between herself and the Mereen woman. As someone who didn't experience first hand what happen to the Targ dynasty she fails to see similar cases because her views of what happended comes through Viserys stories and not her own perceptions and experiences, unlike Jon's views of Tthe Lannisters.

[Lummel]

...I do wonder if deep down she doesn't considers Westeros as home but rather as a symbolic place connected to Viserys bedtime stories like the explanation Dr. Peppers pointed out.

Dany is clearly afraid of the truths Barristan has to tell her and constantly put her overdue talk with him...

Interesting. In that case maybe Westeros, her brother, the house with a red door in Braavos are all fantasy places for her that represent security, childhood and innocence and she doesn't want to see them as an adult as complex, problematic places with a rich and vibrant life of their own.

Talking about Barristan's memories of her father means loosing the myth and the stories of childhood mayhaps?

For Jon it is all so different. The North is his place. It has it's stories but also it's daily life and realities are familiar to him.

ETA Fassreiter, early or late you are heartily welcome, we will still be posting for a while to come seeing as we haven't reached our half way point yet (of which more news later).

[Lyanna Stark]

Just some short observations here since I have child climbing over me:

It struck me when I read this chapter that Jon really has realised that "no man is an island" and he is at least to the best of his abilities*** trying to be "part of the main". He is taking advice and accepting knowledge from a multitude of people. In a way his "rule" comes both from himself but also from the people he is ruling. Cersei is an example of someone who is trying to rule in an aloof style and really sees herself as a unique island above everyone else. With her it's a goal to be aloof and above everyone else.

Dany is different in that she doesn't particularly want to be an island, but more and more in Meereen she ends up becoming one anyway. Both because of circumstances, but also as has been pointed out, because she always felt her stay there would be temporary.

Regarding the trees and faces:

I'll have to recheck but I am also convinced the faces in the trees mean something. Since I only have analogue copies searching for faces in trees is not really possible without a lot of effort, but the angry face stood out to me. Just some symbolism about trouble on the rise or something else?

Are there other trees with carved faces that are angry? I don't recall the Weirwood at Winterfell being angry, but more "gaping"? I am going from memory here completely so it may be wrong.

Also, can non Weirwoods be included in the Weirwood web if they have faces painted on them?

*** minus the mistakes of Bowen Marsh and the Stewards, which ends up costing him dearly. Cost of being slightly disdainful? As a reader we think Jon is right, but is it that simple?

[Lummel]

From memory Weirwood faces tend to either angry or sad. The old gods apparently aren't a happy bunch.

My impression was that the faces were carved into the tree rather than painted (maybe this why they are either angry or sad?). Bloodraven tells Bran that at first his weirnet usage will be limited to face trees but that after time he will be able to go Weirfree using Greenseer-warg roaming techniques and see beyond the trees.

Having said that what do the Wildlings think they are doing when they carve faces into those trees? They could view it as giving mouths and eyes to their gods, they might also want to make the locals uneasy. They may not know how the Greenseers actually use the Weirnet.

[Lyanna Stark]

Having said that what do the Wildlings think they are doing when they carve faces into those trees? They could view it as giving mouths and eyes to their gods, they might also want to make the locals uneasy. They may not know how the Greenseers actually use the Weirnet.

Maybe it's one of those things that starts out as knowledge and then just falls into tradition and "we've always done it this way"? Meaning initially it could have been to help out the greenseers, but now it's just something like "MANCE WUZ HERE" like you see in public toilets?

[Lummel]

The Mance has been hiding out in Swedish Ladies toilets?

[Blisscraft]

Just a couple of thoughts: first, Jon, the sleeper, wakes on his own. This is significant because in previous chapters he was sleeping and then awakened by another. He is becoming conscious of what he needs to do to protect the realm. This becoming/awakening requres sacrifice. Mundanely, he is sleeping at his "desk" not in a bed. Sacrificing comfort. Also, another comfort he is without is last night's meal, although it doesn't appear very appetizing in the morning. Anything described as "congealed" seems pretty unappealing. On a deeper level, he thinks about the possibility that he may have sent Sam, Aemon and Gilly to their deaths. The sacrifice of his friend, mentor and mother and child is disturbing, but Jon knows he can do nothing about it now. He has that awareness, rather than sadness.

Second, this notion of sacrifice is carried over to an "ubi sunt" moment. (ubi sunt qui ante nos fuerent - Where are those who were before us?) The sacrificed lives of his brothers of the NW; Quorin, Donal, Mormont, Benjen. This follows a sense of abandonment: Stannis is gone. Castle Black is a "ghost" town. (Sorry). However, Jon knows what he must do: recruit the wildings.

About the trees: the first is an ash tree. It's bark is white like a weirwood. This particular ash is bent and twisted like a Van Gogh subject. Tortured. It is gazing North. Symbolically, the ash tree is represents sacrifice, sensitivity, and higher awareness. I don't think it's a accident that it's the first tree on the trek South to Moles Town. The four cardinal directions are a big part of this series. The fact that this ash tree's face is looking North is meaningful. North represents home and security. Also, North is associated with the color white, like the ask tree itself. Finally, North is associated with timelessness.

The second tree is a chestnut tree. It is leafless and skeletal. Starving. Chestnut trees represent justice. From its brances flies down Mormont's raven. Jon requires the raven to sacrifice it's food, "Corn for the free folk. . . None for you." Somehow, Jon's remark is just. The wildings are starving for justice, as their later dissent shows. I cannot tell which cardinal direction this tree is facing; East or West. However, it is not facing North or South.

The third tree is an oak. It isn't called "a mighty oak" for nothing. Oak trees are symbolic of strength, power and drawing power, (lightening strike is drawn to oak trees). As noted, this oak is very angry. "It's wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it." Jon's thought shows his compassion for the wildings. This particular group, the first group who swore allegience to th Red god were beaten by Stannis. They were made to sacrifice their gods in order for safety. The wildings are wounded, but not broken. The oak marks the village perimeter. The wildings are recalling their sacrifice and seeking power to protect themselves South of the Wall.

Finally, about the apple and the onion. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that the apple is a powerful symbol. It's universally a biggie. It's also a symbol of sacrifice. Once eaten, the apple separates Adam and Eve from God: the Fall of mankind. Because of this separation, Christ's sacrifice is required to atone for the Fall and reconcile God and Man. Sacrifice creates salvation.

As for the onion, it represents infinity or timelessness (ahem, like North). It gets this meaning because of its layers upon layers which form an sphere within a sphere. It'a a union.

Given a choice between and apple or an onion, which would you choose?

[Blisscraft]

I should probably just edit the above, but I wanted to add something about the notion of sacrifice and what it means to leadership: it's required. This is a difference between Dany and Jon as leaders. Trappngs of power are something to be sacrificed, like Jon's thoughts about Val's advise noted above. Free folk do not follow a lineage, but rather the man with power. Free folk do not follow trappings.

Jon has crossed over in so may ways, sacrificing not only his comfort, but his external show of command. By that, I mean, as one example, Jon does not occupy the King's Tower after Stannis goes South. Jon thinks that it's important for the others at CB to believe Stannis will return. The rejection of what others may regard as important, in the long run is not important.

[Lummel]

...Safe, starved, slaves?

A bunch of Wildlings hurl accusations at Jon that he is keeping them “safe but starved.” (compare to Reznak’s pleas to Dany when she considers leaving for Westeros) Jon tells them that the “food’s for fighters,” and if they wish to eat better, then they can work for their meals. At this, a woman shouts:

Like Dany’s freemen, the Wildlings would be compensated in food and shelter for their service; objectively speaking, are both these Wildlings and Dany’s freemen “slaves?”...

The similarity here for me is dependency.

Daenerys has created this class of people who owe their freedom and their dreams of a better future to her. The Wildlings are on the other arm of the scales in that Mance rounded them up and gave them hopes of safety and security on their own terms south of the Wall which where then crushed in dubious battle. Both though are dependent on the compassion and engagement of Daenerys and Jon respectively. It seems to me that most of the people around our two leaders are opposed to these groups of dependents.

Their freedom, such as it is, is entirely tied up in the fates of Daenerys and Jon.

[Blisscraft]

DP - I've been thinking about the pomegranates/turnips quote by Dolorous Edd. As you know in the last chapter, Edd was talking about the rats. I've decided he's the Greek chorus for Jon's story. Also, the pomemgranate, Lummel (I think) pointed out has an association with Greek mythology. It is the "forbidden fruit" eaten by Persephone which captures her and forces her to stay in Hades for a time depending upon how many seeds she ate (the story varies as I recall). As for the turnip, it grows under the ground. It's a root vegetable. No one can know its bounty until it is pulled from the earth. All of this probably has more to do with foreshadowing than leadership. My apologies.

One more thing, the apple or the onion choice is interesting is that it echos other chapters in the book, the clearest example is when Davos finally arrives to treat with Manderly. He buys an apple from the merchant and eats it. The "onion" eats the apple. (I thought it was funny).

[Lummel]

I'm not sure where Dolorous Edd is from but turnips are a plain, simple vegetable widely available over most of Westeros while pomegranates are going to be a bit exotic and particularly at the Wall - out of place.

The pomegranate also crops up in a Sansa chapter, offered I think by Littlefinger standing in for Hades. Marsh maybe also can represent temptation - the temptation to seal up the gates and hide behind the Wall, the temptation to keep on doing the same old things that they always have and deny change. This is inward looking and selfish. This is in line with what Hades sought to do in keeping Persephone for himself.

There is an ice and fire link because ultimately selfishness has to give way to allow the return of Persephone to her mother and spring returns to the Earth after a long winter (does this sound a little familiar? :) ).

In leadership terms I think you have to accept that the world does change and the strategy that mayhaps served your organisation well for a thousand years or more isn't necessarily going to cut any ice in the year 301 AL. Jon sees this and is trying to shift the Night's Watch on, the old Pomegranate here represents winter and conservatism.

[Blisscraft]

Very nice, Lummel.

[Lummel]

It seems too much of a pity to leave the thread with space remaining for another fifty or so posts so I'll add Dany V. Never fear a nice summary is ready and waiting to start the next thread with a recap of the story so far. I've been reading this along with Dany VI and found this was a much harder chapter for me to summarise concisely (er, sorry about the length :) ) and there is alot of interest going on with her advisers, over her sense of duty with the shadow of her children (the scaly dragon ones) very much looming over much of what happens...

Dany V

Overview

The chapters consists of series of meetings with advisers and counsellors and we see Daenerys' position shift from one which looks manageable to one in which she admits in effect that she is checkmated and steels herself for further compromise.

Meereen is blockaded. Groleo recommends using the dragons to burn the blockading ships. Daenerys won't do this and would rather they built ships instead, but there is no timber and Groleo is no shipwright in any case. Later the Shavepate recommends taking captives from Meereenese families whose ships are involved in the blockade, presumably to force them to return to Meereen, but Daenerys also refuses this option.

She talks with Barristan who is optimistic that the crops she ordered to be planted will come to market and that his crop of knights in training are also growing nicely.

At this stage the strategic situation then is serious but not critical. There is still room to manoeuvre and some of Daenerys' earlier actions may yet still bear fruit and give her further advantages.

But in the evening everything changes dramatically.

Firstly a refugee from Astapor brings word that the city has fallen to Yunkai underlining the failure of Daenerys' first attempt at reform and reordering Slaver's Bay. Secondly the refugee brings the Pale Mare – a contagious plague. Thirdly a quick conversation with Brown Ben Plumm leaves Daenerys backed into having to choose the least unpalatable strategy – marriage to Hizdahr. Checkmate.

Observations

“Would that lambs had teeth.” “That would make the wolves more cautious no doubt.”

“Rhaegar ought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honourably. And Rhaegar died”, this hangs over Daenerys.

“Are there no petitioners today?”...”No, Your Worship. The city is afraid”

Analysis

This is a chapter that is particularly rich for our theme and deals with strategy, advice, responsibility and identity but also runs in parallel to Jon's recent chapters with similar military, wildling/exslave, food and compassion issues (a terrible phrase, but I've used it now).

Strategy - Time

The first strategic issue is time. The reforms that we saw Daenerys' embark on at the beginning of this reread all required time. Social reform, agricultural change, training soldiers and learning to rule. At the beginning of the chapter there still is time to manoeuvre, to grow and develop. By the end of the chapter that's all over. The resources at hand are all Daenerys' has. Her freedom of action, if not totally lost, is going to be curtailed by marriage to Hizdahr and accommodation with him and potentially also the slavocratic regime of Yunkai.

Strategy - Offensive or defensive

As in Jon IV there is a choice between an offensive strategy and a defensive strategy. Unlike Jon, Daenerys clearly favours the defensive, trusting in the city defences that her own army had only recently breached. However as we see there isn't really a choice to make.

The Shavepate warns her that “The Yunkai'i have many friends inside the city”. Daenerys can't safely split her forces (and speaking of enemies within what about Reznak's dragon outburst ? Who was that aimed at?) – there is no confidence that she has enough loyal troops to hold Meereen and defeat the Yunkai in the field despite the weaknesses of the Yunkai army.

Brown Ben Plumm believes that the dragons could give her victory but Daenerys won't use them, (“I am sorry, Ben. I dare not loose the dragons.”) nor will she abandon Meereen and head west. Clearly at this point Brown Ben Plumm demonstrates the old adage that there are old sellswords and bold sellswords but no old bold sellswords and decides to change sides.

This is a repeat of the earlier scene with the blockade. Both Groleo and the Shavepate suggest aggressive tactics (use the dragons and seize hostages respectively) that Daenerys finds unacceptable. This of course links to other wider issues. The desire to be liked on the one hand and be the worthy successor to Rhaegar but the dragons in particular point back to the issue of time. The time to train dragons has been squandered – she needs them now but fears they are a liability as likely to eat her own people as terrify the enemy.

Eroeh or Responsibility

Eroeh equals Astapor. Daenerys' good intentions were not sufficient to prevent a bad outcome. She fears her intervention made things worse: “I am the Queen. It was my place to know.” The lesson she seems to be taking away from this is that she needs to see through changes to the end to ensure success. She feels weighed in the balance and found wanting by the woman refugee and is desperate not to fail her children again. As readers we see the untrained, unschooled Daenerys is like her dragons. A raw passionate power, uncontrolled and a danger to those she loves and would help as much as to her enemies.

Onion Soup issues

The approach of war and Daenerys' decision to stay on the defensive means that she may not see that bean harvest gathered in or food supplies from the Lamb people arrive, at the same time she has committed Meereen to providing for a flood of refugees. This is a repeat of Jon's situation expect that the refugees are militarily even less useful that the Wildlings.

Daenerys and her advisers

Daenerys takes advice but doesn't share her basic preconceptions (the dragons are too wild to use , she won't abandon Meereen) which means that their advice is never helpful, but either irritating or alienating.

“A queen belongs not to herself but to her people”

This is the inescapable conclusion of notions of responsibility and duty. The opportunity to manoeuvre and grow her way out of problems is over. She has to sacrifice herself and surrender power to Hizdahr to try and salvage something. Is this the influence of Rhaegar still hanging over her? How far is this problem caused by her conflict over her identity and the conflict between who she wants to be – nice Daenerys the friend of her hostages – and what two of her advisers tell her she needs in this situation: fire and blood.

[Blisscraft]

Lummel - Amazing work. Well done!

Isolation: The chapter begins with Dany looking down from above and counting the ships that block Meereen's access to the Bay. Again. She has the bird's eye view, so to speak, but even with it, she doesn't trust her count.

Depair: Dany thinks, "What does it matter? A strangler only needs ten fingers."

Denial: For the rest of this chapter all Dany can say or think about when her advisors give her an option or plan is "No."

First, Groleo bring out the dragons and burn the ships. Dany thinks, "His counsel is worse than useless." This is pretty harsh criticism. Her answer to his advice is "NO."

Second, Skahaz has been following around Hizdahr. Reports on his findings and wants to question Hizdahr. Danys believes her enemies are "legion" (biblical reference?) and tells Shahaz, "NO." Skahaz presents a list of traitor captians on Meereenese ships, his solution to ending the blockade is to round up the captains families and thereby force the captions into surrender. Dany reponds by burning the list. I take that means, "No, and hell no."

Third, Ben Brown proposes use the dragons against the oncoming Yunkai'i. Dany says, "NO."

Fourth, there is a moment when Dany regards her advisors: Shavepate is "scowling;" Barristan has "sad" eyes; Reznak is "pale and sweating;' Ben Brown is tough as "leather;" Grey Worm is "expressionless." All she can think about is who is not there to help her: Daario, Jorah and her blood riders. Another rejection of who and what stands before her and needs attention.

Finally, Dany prays. She waits for an answer and the gods don't provide one. Sometimes when there is no answer from the gods, it means the answer is "No."

Regret - Dany's Ideal Leadership For Astapor: When Dany is confronted with the three Astapori horse riders, she thinks "I left a council to rule over you. A healer, a scholar and a priest." No politicians were left to counsel, no mediators, the Astapori did not consent to the council's leadership. A healer may fix the body, but not the body politic. A scholar may know history and its outcomes, but not how to devise new ones. A priest may pray for wisdom and guidance, but not have any. Dany is the equivalent of a gratuitous intermeddler. In this way, I can't help thinking about what Victarion thinks about Euron, "All his gifts are poison." However, in Dany's case, all her gifts seem to be monsters.

On a More Symbolic Note: There are four riders that enter Meereen in this chapter: the plague carrier; the bricklayer; the cobbler and the weaver. I can't help but connect the dots to the Four Horsemen of the Revelation: the white horse, its rider bringing victory to victory; the bright red horse, its rider killing with a large sword, the black horse, its rider carring scales for rationing, and finally, the pale horse, its rider is plague. The riders, "kill by sword, famine, plague, and wild beasts." It all seems to refer to Dany's journey so far through the Slave cities. Although, Dany disregards the notion that the plague rider in Meereen is from the gods, "A horse brought him here not a god."

Barristan has a very pithy moment in this chapter. He says when asked whether they can fight and win, "Dying is easy, but victory comes hard." This sums up the predicament they are all in very well. Sadly, when Dany choses Hizdahr, she is chosing death. She is chosing, as Skahaz puts it, "a serpent in her bed." Within the city walls the battle is now won for the Harpy, and outside the city walls, her past, the Astopari, defeat Meereen with plague and on their heals are the Ynukai'i. Dany is soundly defeated and now, she must sacrifice herself to the victors. "A queen belongs not to herself but to her people." This is a fulcrim. At this moment, she becomes a leader and "every inch a [queen]."

[Lummel]

I'm glad you mentioned the Shavepate following Hizdahr. I thought the his suggestion of torturing Daenerys fiance was pretty incredible and her lack of a shocked reaction even more telling. That's something that didn't make the final version of the post, it didn't make the cut when I was shaving down the post for length (yes there existed once an even longer version!) .

I'm on board with the apocalypse. I know I've mentioned this before, but hopefully not on this thread (and hopefully not to the point that everybody is board of it) but that imagery is repeated in the North both at the false Arya's wedding feast and I think Alys Karstark also reads a pale horse (and as we know there are few things as dangerous as a wedding, particularly in westeros). So we have this idea of a great looming gloomy doom hanging over The North and Slavers Bay with war, plague and pestilence - it's the end of times. On the plus side though, and maybe this is the very optimistic reading of fire and blood, maybe all this destruction will ultimately allow a new beginning or even salvation for some?