Learning to lead? A re-read project of the Dany and Jon ADWD chapters

[Blisscraft]

Wow! So many fantastic thoughs since I last check in. WF - Love your past about the Brazen Beasts. I can't wait till we get further along to find out what other creatures are out there and what they might mean to the action.

Lykos - Wonderful! I never noticed the "mo/zo" distinction. Although, in the prior Dany chapter, GG makes it clear that Skahaz isn't in the upper echelon of Meereenese society. Well done. I must look at Skahaz again.

Lummel - I find myself, like most of Dany's advisors in this chapter, wanting her to "get a pair" and bring out the "scaly children" or use some real threat of violence to deal with the Meereenese. GRRM and I are of a generation that saw the devastating effects of the US War in Vietnam. In many ways, the US involvement there, was like Dany and the Meereenese. At that time, although few may want to admit it now, there was a strong desire to "just nuke" the Vietnamese out of existence. Dany in Meereen could certainly do that: "kill them all" as Cat would say. Thankfully, she resists the temptation. It goes back again to the perception of power as you have suggested above. Well done!

[Lyanna Stark]

Lummel - I find myself, like most of Dany's advisors in this chapter, wanting her to "get a pair" and bring out the "scaly children" or use some real threat of violence to deal with the Meereenese. GRRM and I are of a generation that saw the devastating effects of the US War in Vietnam. In many ways, the US involvement there, was like Dany and the Meereenese. At that time, although few may want to admit it now, there was a strong desire to "just nuke" the Vietnamese out of existence. Dany in Meereen could certainly do that: "kill them all" as Cat would say. Thankfully, she resists the temptation. It goes back again to the perception of power as you have suggested above. Well done!

A very good point. Dany and Jon also share this trait that they are not going for the easy, but brutal solutions.

Jon could have shut the gates to the wall and rained death of the Wildlings, while Dany could have scourged everything with her Dragons, but as you say, thankfully she doesn't.

She may not be the cleverest and most well educated woman in Essos and may occasionally make less than ideal decisions, and she may not be totally up to speed on the logistics on shipbuilding, but at least she won't whip out the weapon of mass destruction for nothing.

[Winterfellian]

A very good point. Dany and Jon also share this trait that they are not going for the easy, but brutal solutions.

Jon could have shut the gates to the wall and rained death of the Wildlings, while Dany could have scourged everything with her Dragons, but as you say, thankfully she doesn't.

I agree on this. They are both ready to make the hardest choice.

I find it interesting that both of them are bad communicating to others why they are doing things this way. Dany's advisors don't understand why she doesn't let the dragongs loose any better than Bowen Marsh and company understand why is Jon wasting his time trying to save the wildings. They are both failing to suceesfully communicate their motives to their subordinates.

[Dacie]

Agree. One if the biggest issues with both Jon and Dany's leadership is lack of effective communication. Both tend to internalize things, which only leads to further feelings of isolation and probably depression.

[Scipio Africanus]

Agree. One if the biggest issues with both Jon and Dany's leadership is lack of effective communication.

Is this really true on Jon's part? While he failed to get the WHOLE of the NW in line, not ALL his command is openly mutinous. ASAIK Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower are loyal to the LC. Marsh did not represent the whole watch at Castle Black either, of that I'm convinced, he just represented the Thorne - Slynt faction which hated Jon even as a recruite and in the case of Janos, before he joined the NW.

Jon communicated quite well with the Wildlings I find. I doubt there was a NW ranger who communicated better with them since Mance and he turned coat.

[Teal'c]

Wow! So many fantastic thoughs since I last check in. WF - Love your past about the Brazen Beasts. I can't wait till we get further along to find out what other creatures are out there and what they might mean to the action.

Lykos - Wonderful! I never noticed the "mo/zo" distinction. Although, in the prior Dany chapter, GG makes it clear that Skahaz isn't in the upper echelon of Meereenese society. Well done. I must look at Skahaz again.

Lummel - I find myself, like most of Dany's advisors in this chapter, wanting her to "get a pair" and bring out the "scaly children" or use some real threat of violence to deal with the Meereenese. GRRM and I are of a generation that saw the devastating effects of the US War in Vietnam. In many ways, the US involvement there, was like Dany and the Meereenese. At that time, although few may want to admit it now, there was a strong desire to "just nuke" the Vietnamese out of existence. Dany in Meereen could certainly do that: "kill them all" as Cat would say. Thankfully, she resists the temptation. It goes back again to the perception of power as you have suggested above. Well done!

I think the most important mistake Dany makes here is that she lets everyone know she is definitely not willing to USE the weapons she has, these being the dragons and killing hostages if necessary. She tells the Green Grace right up front she won't kill hostages, and she has two dragons chained up.

A powerful weapon is only a deterrent if your enemy believes you will use it if necessary. Power resides yada, yada, yada...

[Dacie]

Oh I agree. He communicates much better with the Wildlings and even Stannis than he does with Bowen Marsh and co. Like Winterfellian said, the majority of the NW does not understand his reasons for not sealing the gate and continually recruiting more Wildlings. All they see are more mouths to feed and increasing the threat to the NW by allowing these people in who have been their sworn enemies for years. Granted I'm not really sure there is anything Jon could have said that would make them understand.

[Scipio Africanus]

Oh I agree. He communicates much better with the Wildlings and even Stannis than he does with Bowen Marsh and co. Like Winterfellian said, the majority of the NW does not understand his reasons for not sealing the gate and continually recruiting more Wildlings. All they see are more mouths to feed and increasing the threat to the NW by allowing these people in who have been their sworn enemies for years. Granted I'm not really sure there is anything Jon could have said that would make them understand.

There's a line in ADWD near the end that bothers me, with respect to the Marsh - Thorne - Slynt faction. He says he doesn't need them anymore. Coupled with earlier encounters where he found Marsh's council predictable and dull were harbingers for this. In other words, he stopped trying to convince or please everyone.

My theory that he was lukewarm to his NW vows was shot down by a few people. While I don't argue he didn't take vows seriously (he is Eddard's "son" after all) I think he was seeing the bigger picture and was setting himself up for more then being the LC of the NW. He was effectively taking leadership of the entire area north of Winterfell. He was not going to be held back by a few dissenters. If he thought the WHOLE watch felt the same way, why would he have proceded with his plans for the NW to go north and he go south with a Wilding army?

Either he felt confident that most of the NW would support him, or he grossly misjudged his support amongst the NW. Or...he really thought he didn't need support of the NW, just the (few) rescources they had. That still assumes he thought he would have enough support for this.

[Punchslap]

Granted I'm not really sure there is anything Jon could have said that would make them understand.

My impression was that nothing less than compliance with Marsh's own ideas would suffice. In that sense, no matter what Jon did to try to convince Marsh's faction it was not going to work. They remind me of Theoden in Lord of the Rings, "I would have things as they were in all the days of my life, and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught; neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated." The answer to that sentiment is suicide, which is what Marsh's plans would amount to. The men who kill Jon don't want to change, which is why I think Jon dismisses them.

[Winterfellian]

There's a line in ADWD near the end that bothers me, with respect to the Marsh - Thorne - Slynt faction. He says he doesn't need them anymore. Coupled with earlier encounters where he found Marsh's council predictable and dull were harbingers for this. In other words, he stopped trying to convince or please everyone.

My theory that he was lukewarm to his NW vows was shot down by a few people. While I don't argue he didn't take vows seriously (he is Eddard's "son" after all) I think he was seeing the bigger picture and was setting himself up for more then being the LC of the NW. He was effectively taking leadership of the entire area north of Winterfell. He was not going to be held back by a few dissenters. If he thought the WHOLE watch felt the same way, why would he have proceded with his plans for the NW to go north and he go south with a Wilding army?

Either he felt confident that most of the NW would support him, or he grossly misjudged his support amongst the NW. Or...he really thought he didn't need support of the NW, just the (few) rescources they had. That still assumes he thought he would have enough support for this.

I really like your post and completely agree on the bold part. I think I was one of those who argued against your theory about Jon being Lukewarm to his vows :)

I still feel this isn't the case but Jon has learned to understand that when weighted against the value human of life the latter trascends any vows any time. So when people's lives are at stake he will not let his vows hold him back for doing what he thinks is right, even if it means oathbreaking.

As for your question, I think is a combination of many situations. The best I can say without getting too ahead of the reread is that Jon put too much thrust in his position as Lord Commander. A big mistake in my opinion knowing what happen to the Old Bear and the fact that, unlike Dany, he's approachin the trappings of power in a very low key way.

However the Night's Watch being a military organization is completely hierarchical and the lower ranks are expected to obey orders from their superiors. Jon obvioulsly thrusted in this last bit and paid the price for it.

ETA: Also, Jon is the type of person that tries to lead by example. He could have hope that his example tempered with time as well as a growing awareness to the real threat once winter hitted Westeros would have brought the dissenting factions to his side.

[Lummel]

I think also her reactions are very much in line with some of Cercei's line of thought as well. The logic she employs to suggest that because Groleo is a sailor he can build ships is very in tune with Cercei's logic that because Gyles Rosby was rich he will make a fine master of coins. Also, both were angry when they found out otherwise and her reactions are very much the same...

...I feel we have reach a point on the reread where their paths are beggining to diverge somehow because the foresight, planning and knowledge they both used as a base when they set up to bring social changes are beggining to show for or against their benefit. In Jon's case his understanding of the wildings and ability to anticipate problems (like the ones pointed out by danm_99) is starting to pay off while in Dany's case her lack of knowledge for Ghiscary culture and long term planning is starting to work against her...

...Remember that their agreement with the wildings they have so far in Mole's Town depends in great part in how good they can feed them. If they can't, they face the possibility of some sort of mutiny and they are outnumbered as it is. Also there is no more time to plant food so it's not like he can say, when the wildings are more settled I can employ them to plant crops...

Yes you are right about the food. I called it a medium term problem though because of their stores at the Wall. Even with the extra mouths they won't run out of food tomorrow whereas over in Meereen where they seem about to be cut off from the countryside by the Yunkai and it looks as though starvation might a real possibility, but I take your point. We don't know if Bowen Marsh's calculations allowed for feeding wildlings, if not then running out of food is a real possibility within a matter of months. Presumably the wildlings in Moles Town were just meant to scavinge for what they could find. An apple or an onion per person isn't going to keep you going for long.

The logic is very Cersei. Stannis doesn't quite manage that just the wish that advisers would bring him useful advice ;)

Very glad you bring up the divergence because my big idea here is that the two story lines run in parallel and if you disagree then you can help me test my idea to destruction :).

[Winterfellian]

Very glad you bring up the divergence because my big idea here is that the two story lines run in parallel and if you disagree then you can help me test my idea to destruction :).

We will have a :fencing: . Joking aside, the divergence I wrote about is based mostly on my personal perceptions on both their chapters but I will love to read your thoughts on them as well if you feel different.

[Lummel]

Yes something else that didn't make the cut in my Dany chapter post was the dragons as a "Paper Tiger". Groleo and Plumm and me are all egging Daenerys on to unleash the fire - which, wisely, she won't do. But of course Reznak lets the cat out of the bag by telling everybody at court the big secret that Daenerys can't control them meaning they have become a paper tiger.

Daenerys of course does exactly the same by admitting to the Green Harpy Grace that she won't harm her hostages. If the threat of violence can be more potent than the actual blow Daenerys has just declared herself impotent!

Scipo Africanus, please don't feel too shot down - stick up for your idea like your namesake :). My own reading is that he swerves from oath breaking to oath keeping rather than being consistently luke warm, but you know these are opinions and the more we exchange opinions the more we can open up the books (I hope).

With regard to Marsh and his supporters we were told in Jon IV that the Builders and the Stewards were in favour of sealing the Wall. If that was true of the whole of the watch then that would be a majority of the men. On the other hand I think opposition to taking on the Wildlings could potentially include some rangers - not sure if this is something mentioned in future Jon chapters. I'll have to wait and see...

ETA yes en garde Winterfellian! It shall be swords at dawn!

[Lummel]

Gentle posters and lurkers!

I am very pleased to announce that part two of this thread is now open ready for the story to continue and for Winterfellian and I to fight our duel...Come and join us over here, there's a little summary of the story so far to remind us of the main events...though there are bound to be some important points that I've forgotten to mention...

[parsifal81]

Kudos to Lummel and everyone else who intends to attempt this re-read! Personally, I think the project too ambitious for me as I barely made it through Jon's chapters (plus Melisandre's) alone in search of a conspiracy against him led by Bowen Marsh. I'm not sure my attention span can take reviewing the Meereen POVs in such detail. Of course, another problem is that I don't actually own a copy of ADWD. :laugh:

At any rate, a few general observations:

In addition to benefiting from a string of good to excellent mentors* on the finer points of duty and honor, leadership, diplomacy, and the military arts, Jon has a psychological edge over Dany because he's certain of his identity, even comfortable with his bastard status, and filled with conviction about the rightness of his actions in preparing for the Others. Though he's torn between his obligations to the NW and blood ties to the Starks, Winterfell, and the North, Jon's comparative lack of options in the Wall's defense may be more help than hindrance. It's easier to be decisive when there's pretty much only one feasible set of solutions to your ice zombie apocalypse troubles in the long view.

Dany, in contrast, is presented a perhaps overwhelming number of workable means by her counselors to achieve her immediate ends of quelling dissension in Meereen and meeting the threat of war with Yunkai, Volantis, etc. as well as her ultimate goal of heading to Westeros to reclaim the Iron Throne. Her understandable lack of dragonlore and resulting inability to control Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion lead to a crisis of confidence in herself, however. I think Dany already knows the gist of what Barristan can tell her about Aerys. She doesn't want to hear it and has difficulty taking severe measures like killing her child hostages because, IMO, she's paralyzed by her fear that she's as mad, cruel, and wantonly destructive as her father was, as her children have become.

* Eddard Stark, Maester Luwin, Rodrik Cassel, Tyrion Lannister, Jeor Mormont, Aemon Targaryen, Donal Noye, Qhorin Halfhand, Ygritte, Mance Rayder, Stannis Baratheon

On the topic of Jon, Dany, and magic, I feel Jon has a much more practical outlook than Dany. Both have seen and experienced enough magic that they can't just dismiss it, but Jon tends to treat Melisandre's visions with varying degrees of skepticism based on how accurate her previously given mystical advice proves. He's willing to turn to her when she predicts the Weeper killing his men and the Pink Letter's arrival. He doesn't trust her after Alys Karstark's revealed to be the girl fleeing to the Wall, not Arya as Melisandre claims.

Maybe Dany's hatching of the dragons and acid trip in the House of the Undying make the difference? Jon doesn't really have a magical interlude of comparable magnitude, though this is sure likely to change after the events of ADWD. Even so, my speculation's that Jon will be in contact with Bran and Bloodraven while warging in Ghost. The impact of magic, how impressive and mysterious it seems, is no doubt lessened when you personally know the practitioners as your little brother, feared dead, that jerk of a skinchanger two villages over, or the lady in red who keeps subtly hitting on you, lol.

Finally, if anyone's interested, my own very limited ADWD re-read: Jon I-V, Jon VI-VIII, Melisandre, Jon IX-X, Jon XI-XII, Jon XIII. Again, my focus is on developing conspiracy theories for the Wall, lol, but I'd be happy to discuss points I noted in the other thread here in this one as it progresses.

I think you're taking the Quaithe/Melissandre parallel way too far.

Jon has plenty of reasons to mistrust Melissandre. She practices human sacrifice! She burns weirwoods and forces her religion on people. She's consort to a king who has somewhat dubious intentions regarding the Wall.

In contrast, Dany doesn't have nearly as many reasons to be suspicious of Quaithe. She's just some woman who prophecies. She warned Dany of danger in Qarth, and her previous cryptic utterance ("to go north you must go south....") actually helped Dany make an important decision in Astapor.

Also I think the parallels between Dany and Jon are being taken too far as well. Morality is a much more complicated thing for her than it is for Jon.

It's no wonder Dany is not as comfortable in her own skin.....she's a Queen, a ruler in a way that Jon is not.....and her dragons (her beloved children) are creatures of destruction who kill children! She watches her people die. Those she left behind are conquored and those who follow her are slaughtered in the streets..............

There is no easy solution to the problems in Meereen. Why bother waging war if you can't wage peace??? Why bother protecting the peace if you end up sacrificing everything you stood for in war?? These are NOT easy quesions, and Jon has not been faced with questions of this level. Dany's counselors gave her A LOT of alternative suggestions, but none of these alternatives would have been good. Spurning the old heirarchy entirely? Bad idea. Short-changing her followers on the freedom she promised them? Bad idea. Abandoning her people to starvation or slaughter? Bad idea. Aiding a butcher king? Bad idea. Holing up and letting the different factions kill each other in the streets? Bad idea.

Also....we haven't seen the full repurcusions of Jon's alliance with Stannis yet. I have a feeling that his decisions might not have been as prudent as they seemed at the time. We'll find out in the upcoming books.....

But either way, Jon did do his best. The NW was in a really really tight place, and no one else could have saved them. And now Bowen Marsh has probably just exacerbated the situation.

[The Idiots Lantern]

What I find interesting is that neither Jon nor Dany really succeeded in their leadership roles....in the sense that neither of them ended well. Jon is bleeding out on the floor after being stabbed by his own "brothers", Dany is lost in the wilderness with a dragon and a hostile Khalesaar for company. Neither situation looks good.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Nice thresd havent seen it before

[Lykos]

The reread has continued!

The last and still open thread is here: Learning to Lead V. The earlier threads are here: Learning to Lead I, II, III and IV.