[Book Spoilers] Robb Stark Redemption Arc

[Frey Pie]

So i think most people who read the book think Robb was stupid for marrying Jeyne and he was. No doubt. However most could also empathise with him as well. There were a few reasons for doing what he did-it was understandable for such a young man. Show Robb is a complete fool. Most people dont care about him. People who havnt read the book arent rooting for him as much as they should be. The producers have taken the loyalty many book readers have for the Starks hence non-book readers dont know who to support really. All they no is-everyone hates Joff.

The only reason they can have put in Talisa or however you spell it is to get the crowd digging a love story vibe. But even looking at IMDB not many people are mad about them. So how are they going to redeem Robb? The RW has to be huge. For me it was the biggst moment in the books. I read on for chapters thinking i must be wrong. But if people dont care for Robb the RW wont be that big a deal. So the only way i can think of Robb being redeemed is maybe if they do the battle of the fords. But instead of Edmure in charge Robb is. This seems like an acceptable compromise to me. Robb has to have some sort of heroic act though-saving some of his men or the like. What ye think?

To a lesser extent Stannis too. Hes not supposed to be evil. Would book Stannis choke a woman? Then again i guess he has his arc redemption already written for him up on the wall....

[Stag's Fury]

Nope, marrying Talisa is a even far more stupid move than marrying Jeyne.

Jeyne-wounded, just received news that Bran and Rickon are dead, had sex, spur of the moment thing and got married to protect Jeyne's honor and most likely didn't counsel anyone.

Talisa-"oh but i love her!", didn't care at all about what Cat said. Heck, Cat clearly told him not to cross the Freys and Robb is basically "meh *shrug*".

Honestly, just judging from this, it almost makes me glad that he got a red wedding down the road waiting for him.

[YTDN]

I think it's unfair to say the RW will be less of a big deal, or Robb somehow deserves it for his boneheaded decisions. No-one deserves to get killed at a wedding and then have your corpse desecrated. It's still going to have a huge impact, just because it abruptly kills two major characters in an incredibly violent manner.

[Stag's Fury]

Oh, by no means I'd say Robb deserve it, but it's more of a "see, everyone told you so"

[Aubry]

I wonder if Talisa will die at the Red Wedding.

Since the show has invested so much in Robb and her and their obnoxious love story, maybe they'll try to capitalise on that in some way for the Red Wedding too. Will they kill her off as well as Robb in the hope that that will stir the viewers?

I really hope not. To be honest, my preference would be if they didn't focus too much on redeeming Robb or, indeed, on Robb at all. Let Cat think her kids have been killed. Let her and Robb have a warm scene together for once. Then let Michelle Fairley break all our hearts and put Cat back at the centre of the RW. Make it about her story instead of about Robb's ridiculous anachronistic love story.

The Red Wedding shouldn't be about Robb's arc. It's about Catelyn's.

[Sarnius1]

I don't think Robb was stupid for marrying Jeyne. Where's all the Robb hate coming from?!

[Greywolf2375]

I don't think Robb was stupid for marrying Jeyne. Where's all the Robb hate coming from?!

For acting in a selfish & irresponsible way to his station, people and vow? Instead of tying his house to his bannerman, he marries...no one. Instead of placing his realm as King of the North as his priority, he places personal desire first. Instead of holding to his word, he intentionally and with forethought goes and breaks his vow to his bannerman.

[Reposado]

I see where this is going. They established that Robb is the biggest idiot in Westeros. At the Red Wedding, Walder Frey chops his hand off and by the end of the book he learnes to use judgment and foresight.

[birdsong66]

I wonder if Talisa will die at the Red Wedding.

Since the show has invested so much in Robb and her and their obnoxious love story, maybe they'll try to capitalise on that in some way for the Red Wedding too. Will they kill her off as well as Robb in the hope that that will stir the viewers?

I really hope not. To be honest, my preference would be if they didn't focus too much on redeeming Robb or, indeed, on Robb at all. Let Cat think her kids have been killed. Let her and Robb have a warm scene together for once. Then let Michelle Fairley break all our hearts and put Cat back at the centre of the RW. Make it about her story instead of about Robb's ridiculous anachronistic love story.

The Red Wedding shouldn't be about Robb's arc. It's about Catelyn's.

TBH, I think you've nailed exactly how the TV!RW will play out in season 3. It will focus on TV!Robb, Talisa will be there, and it is Talisa that will plead for TV!Robb's live, Talisa that will kill Jigglebells one of the Freys, and Catelyn will be relegated to one of the unfortunate victims of the massacre.

Why stick to Catelyn's story arc now? She's just a victim in HBOGoT, I don't think that's going to change very much in future seasons. The RW will be the worse for it as a presentation, but that just my opinion, YMMV.

Begs the question: Will there be a Stoneheart?

[ServantOnIce]

Good points everyone.

1. TV Robb looks selfish and weak . . he falls truly in love and ignores several of his mother's warnings about Walder Frey . . . he goes on and without his mother's knowing consent he marries for love . . a part of GRRM's Song that always bites a person in the butt.

2. In the books after reading "Storm of Swords" I never blamed Walder Frey because I felt Robb gave him the finger and Frey and Bolton where in bad positions. But thinking about it, Robb got "backstabbed." On the TV show with Winterfell being in ruins and the Iron Born raiding the North, Robb in the Westerlands and after Stannis' defeat on the Blackwater it seems that Robb is done . . . all those factors have done him in, Robb wasn't ready to be a king he just didn't have the maturity needed to be a successful monarch.

3. I don't think there will be a Stoneheart I can see Talisa dying with Robb at the Wedding and for some reason Catelyn survives wounded but not dead and she becomes a vigilante . . . maybe D and D will have the Hound and Arya save Catelyn?? I don't know and it is a good thing I don't know . .it will be exciting to watch.

Robb is done, that is clear in the books and on TV . . he just wasn't a King . . . . .

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr4hg1SJpQ1r2pdfbo1_1280.jpg

[SerMixalot]

There is no redemption for Robb, only the fall

[Istakhr]

They should really try to focus on Cat and slaughter other northmen during the RW to keep the emotional impact.

Since they have Beric and Thoros next season, I think they will keep Cat dying and later turing into the unCat. I bet they will even show Hound killing Beric and Thoros reviving him.

[Frey Pie]

Nope, marrying Talisa is a even far more stupid move than marrying Jeyne.

Jeyne-wounded, just received news that Bran and Rickon are dead, had sex, spur of the moment thing and got married to protect Jeyne's honor and most likely didn't counsel anyone.

Talisa-"oh but i love her!", didn't care at all about what Cat said. Heck, Cat clearly told him not to cross the Freys and Robb is basically "meh *shrug*".

Honestly, just judging from this, it almost makes me glad that he got a red wedding down the road waiting for him.

That was the point of my post sorry if i didnt make it clear? Most people rooted for Robb in the books. We wanted him to succeed. If i hadnt read the books i dont think id be rooting for him anymore. It started off really well-his confrontation with Jaime was great, Theons betrayal was portrayed even better then the books. Then they screwed up with Tulisa

Good points everyone.

1. TV Robb looks selfish and weak . . he falls truly in love and ignores several of his mother's warnings about Walder Frey . . . he goes on and without his mother's knowing consent he marries for love . . a part of GRRM's Song that always bites a person in the butt.

2. In the books after reading "Storm of Swords" I never blamed Walder Frey because I felt Robb gave him the finger and Frey and Bolton where in bad positions. But thinking about it, Robb got "backstabbed." On the TV show with Winterfell being in ruins and the Iron Born raiding the North, Robb in the Westerlands and after Stannis' defeat on the Blackwater it seems that Robb is done . . . all those factors have done him in, Robb wasn't ready to be a king he just didn't have the maturity needed to be a successful monarch.

3. I don't think there will be a Stoneheart I can see Talisa dying with Robb at the Wedding and for some reason Catelyn survives wounded but not dead and she becomes a vigilante . . . maybe D and D will have the Hound and Arya save Catelyn?? I don't know and it is a good thing I don't know . .it will be exciting to watch.

Robb is done, that is clear in the books and on TV . . he just wasn't a King . . . . .

http://24.media.tumb...pdfbo1_1280.jpg

Frey has to be held accountable. If you fall out with your buddy do you kill him, his mother and all his friends? If everyone in the world of ASOIAF holds them at fault then i think wer supposed to as well.

They cant have catelyn saved. It would ruin her arc and Aryas. Catelyn wants piece. When she is reborn she wants fire and blood

[Robb_]

People cared a lot for TV Robb at the end of Season 1 I thought, but there seems to be less hype about him after the Talisa stuff, hopefully they develop that relationship better at the start of next season. And I really do hope we get to see him in battle, plus the Karstark beheading scene.

[Harrad]

After Ned lost his head, does anyone seriously think that HBO will change Robb's fate? Robb is the same in book and series. He is a relatively good guy, brave and a good general, who is not conniving enough or ruthless enough to survive the GoT. Get him out of the way in the RW and move on to the next contenders.

[Frey Pie]

After Ned lost his head, does anyone seriously think that HBO will change Robb's fate? Robb is the same in book and series. He is a relatively good guy, brave and a good general, who is not conniving enough or ruthless enough to survive the GoT. Get him out of the way in the RW and move on to the next contenders.

No they definately cant. But hes not the same in the series at all-hes spoiled and dumbed down a lot. Too much in my opinion. I dont think anyone thinks they can get away without the RW

[Mulled Wino]

There is no redemption for Robb, only the fall

Agreed and i am a reader who didnt empathize with robb in the least in the books.

[Harrad]

No they definately cant. But hes not the same in the series at all-hes spoiled and dumbed down a lot. Too much in my opinion. I dont think anyone thinks they can get away without the RW

He is the same as in the book. In the book there's no POV for Robb, so many have romanticized him here. The facts are he does the exact same things in the series as in the books. Know a man by his actions. (Substitute marry Talisa for Jeyne, but the reasoning and effects are identical). Robb is a non-survivor in both venues. Too bad, so sad.

[Areo Speedwagon]

He is the same as in the book. In the book there's no POV for Robb, so many have romanticized him here. The facts are he does the exact same things in the series as in the books. Know a man by his actions. (Substitute marry Talisa for Jeyne, but the reasoning and effects are identical). Robb is a non-survivor in both venues. Too bad, so sad.

Thank you.

I don't understand why love is such an incomprehensible reason to marry someone and break a vow, but a moment of weakness when one is injured and most likely doped up on milk of the poppy is? In season 1 when Maester Aemon gave Jon the speech where he says "What is honor, compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of new born son in your arms? Or a brother' smile?" Were you rolling your eyes calling 'bullshit' on it?

I mean, yeah, fuck the producers for wanting to have a sexual relationship in season two that isn't rape, prostitution, or manipulative.

I ask this of the OP out of pure curiosity, no snark intended, but how many people do you know that haven't read the books but watch the show? Have you asked their opinion? What is their age/gender if I may ask?

As to the inclusion of Stoneheart, it depends on what Martin does with her character. As it stands right now at the end of Dance, I'm still unsure as to why she was brought back. That being said, I'm sure Martin has something amazing up his sleeve for her reason and it's going to kick my ass.

Lastly, to the titular topic of this thread, does Robb need to be redeemed? He fucks up and gets killed for it. Do you view Robb's crime as grievous as Theon's or Jaime's that he requires protracted redemption?

[Istakhr]

Thank you.

I don't understand why love is such an incomprehensible reason to marry someone and break a vow, but a moment of weakness when one is injured and most likely doped up on milk of the poppy is? In season 1 when Maester Aemon gave Jon the speech where he says "What is honor, compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of new born son in your arms? Or a brother' smile?" Were you rolling your eyes calling 'bullshit' on it?

I mean, yeah, fuck the producers for wanting to have a sexual relationship in season two that isn't rape, prostitution, or manipulative.

I ask this of the OP out of pure curiosity, no snark intended, but how many people do you know that haven't read the books but watch the show? Have you asked their opinion? What is their age/gender if I may ask?

As to the inclusion of Stoneheart, it depends on what Martin does with her character. As it stands right now at the end of Dance, I'm still unsure as to why she was brought back. That being said, I'm sure Martin has something amazing up his sleeve for her reason and it's going to kick my ass.

Lastly, to the titular topic of this thread, does Robb need to be redeemed? He fucks up and gets killed for it. Do you view Robb's crime as grievous as Theon's or Jaime's that he requires protracted redemption?

If producers want the viewers to look ar RW and say OK, Robb was a somewhat goodhearted, selfish idiot. Too bad he died, but let's move on with the story then you are right.

But if they want to deliver a gut punch to the viewers in RW by an emotional scene and that's what probably want to do the Robb story in the show didn't work.

If you look at their comments, they basically did the Robb/Talisa story in the show to make people more sympathetic to Robb. How many people do you know that like Robb more now than they liked him in the end of S1? Ultimately showrunners had good intentions, but failed in execution.