[Book Spoilers] Robb Stark Redemption Arc

[kephv]

How can they redeem Robb? By killing him. And people would only cheer if it saves us from more of the terrible romance between him and Talisa.

[Harrad]

Ultimately showrunners had good intentions, but failed in execution.

Since the action in the series (on screen) mimicked in all particulars the action in the book (off-the-page), my sympathies for Robb were the same in both. GRRM gave him away as a "minor" character by not POV-ing him. The HBO series actually gave him more props. Let him make the same good calls and bad calls and will let him suffer the same fate as the books. If there really are non-book readers and non-spoiler knowers in the audience by the RW, I expect them to have even more of a shock since they dont konw about the non-POV aspect of Robb in the books.

[David Selig]

I still don't see how Book Robb is any less selfish and stupid. Even if we excuse him for having sex with Jeyne due to grief and all the pressure on him, he still didn't have to marry her. His honor demanded to keep his word to the Freys, his duty demanded that the interest of his millions of subjects take clear precendence before the interest of one girl whose family was fighting on the opposite side of the war.

All this "Jeyne's life wouldn't have been totally ruined since she was not a virgin anymore" claims makes no sense either. First, it would have been very easy to keep it a secret. Second, even if it's not kept a secret, Robb could easily offer money and lands to find her a good match in marriage.

[Areo Speedwagon]

If producers want the viewers to look ar RW and say OK, Robb was a somewhat goodhearted, selfish idiot. Too bad he died, but let's move on with the story then you are right.

But if they want to deliver a gut punch to the viewers in RW by an emotional scene and that's what probably want to do the Robb story in the show didn't work.

If you look at their comments, they basically did the Robb/Talisa story in the show to make people more sympathetic to Robb. How many people do you know that like Robb more now than they liked him in the end of S1? Ultimately showrunners had good intentions, but failed in execution.

Everyone person I know that watches the show and hasn't read the books, without exception, strongly, strongly disagrees with you. The only complaint I've heard was that two of them thought the wedding scene was kind of stolen from Braveheart. That's it. I know 6 people who watch the show that haven't read the books, 4 male, 2 female aged 25 - 31. And a few weeks ago, when all this Robb/Talisa ire came up, I started asking around at work (4 people; 1 female, 3 male, age 35 - 50) as I knew several people there watched the show as well. I asked specifically about Robb and Talisa, and they all liked it. They liked Robb, they liked Talisa, they liked them together.

I understand that my experience doesn't represent everyone, but in the limited cross section of the show's viewership I do have, opinions are unanimous.

My sister and her fiancee (aged 30 & 31) do like Robb far more than at the end of season 1. They realize there are going to be huge consequences because of what he did, but a selfish idiot is far from what they call him. They call him human. How else would we be able to relate to characters that live in a world with ice demons, dragons, wargs, primogeniture, kings, etc. if they didn't make dumb mistakes for bad reasons like we do? We are all dumb and selfish sometimes, I'm no exception. But if Robb wasn't, he'd be a robot. I didn't feel bad for Bishop when he got speared in Aliens... because he was a robot.

My sister actually made a parallel between Robb and Robert Baratheon in that winning a throne and keeping a throne are two totally different things. You can be good at one and suck at the other. Something that, as a reader, I didn't.

I think you (and I'm using the royal 'you' here, I don't mean you individually) run into dangerous territory when you try to project your experience of something onto someone else. You are having an entirely different experience of the story from a non book reader and vice versa. Someone on another board was convinced the burning of Winterfell wasn't a cliffhanger. That no non reader was going to tune in next season wondering 'whodunit.' But Monday morning, i got an email from a friend asking who the hell burned Winterfell!? Was it the Greyjoys or (and I'm quoting directly here) "did the son of that creepy deputy of Robb's go rogue!?!?"

Trying to make a statement on how a non reader experiences the show is like me trying to tell you how you experience chocolate ice cream.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

They realize there are going to be huge consequences because of what he did, but a selfish idiot is far from what they call him

They must have missed the scene he threw his toys out the pram with Catelyn then. He was pretty much the definition of a selfish idiot in that scene, and the one where he nobbed Talisa, and the ones where instead of running a war effort he spent all his time with Talisa.

They call him human. How else would we be able to relate to characters that live in a world with ice demons, dragons, wargs, primogeniture, kings, etc. if they didn't make dumb mistakes for bad reasons like we do?

Oh well, they missed the point then. We're not meant to relate to Robb.

It's alright guys, Cersei is no longer an obsessively amibtious driven maniac, she's just human. Ramsay's not a sick individual who revels in torture and rape, he's just human. Walder Frey isn't a turncloak duplicitous asshole, he's just human.

With Robb, we are not meant to ask the question "what would we do"? To do so is to fail to understand the character and the tone of the series.

[Areo Speedwagon]

They must have missed the scene he threw his toys out the pram with Catelyn then. He was pretty much the definition of a selfish idiot in that scene, and the one where he nobbed Talisa, and the ones where instead of running a war effort he spent all his time with Talisa.

You lost me here. I must have missed that scene too. I don't recall Robb having a tantrum, or toys for that matter. I'm not usually one for consensus, but I think I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with those that think a moment of weakness with a nurse while (most likely) being doped up on milk of the poppy, then consciously breaking an oath in a misguided, medieval-aged concept of honor in order to somehow redeem her honor is somehow more understandable than love. I honestly don't get it, and I don't see the point in continuing the conversation.

It's alright guys, Cersei is no longer an obsessively amibtious driven maniac, she's just human. Ramsay's not a sick individual who revels in torture and rape, he's just human. Walder Frey isn't a turncloak duplicitous asshole, he's just human.

I hate to be the one to have to tell you this but Cersei is human. So is Walder Frey and all his children. And Ned, and Arya, Joffrey, Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Tyrion, Maester Luwin, Khal Drogo, Osney Kettleblack, Mace Tyrell, Stannis, Randyll Tarly, Sam Tarly, I'm not willing to weigh in on Ramsay yet, there may be more going on there, but I think you get my point. While certainly a work of incredible fiction, the main characters in A Song of Ice and Fire are not aliens, robots, trolls, angels, lizards, or jellyfish. They are human characters with wants, needs, strengths, weaknesses, blind spots, flaws, aspirations, and goals. That's the true strength of the series. That Robb isn't some cookie cutter fantasy trope of the noble, wise, and righteous king. He has a blind spot. That Jaime isn't the cookie cutter fantasy trope of the noble knight. He's a real fucking asshole. That Ned was the cookie cutter fantasy trope of the noble, wise, and righteous lord, but it cost him his head. Cersei is a human who just happens to be an obsessively ambitious-driven maniac. Walder Frey is a human who just happens to be a duplicitous asshole. In believing those negative traits to be mutually exclusive to being human, I envy you that you haven't met a human being in your life who was a duplicitous asshole. They really suck.

Moreover, I certainly don't understand what you mean by "just human." You are "just human," as are your parents and your best friend. Every saint, prophet, tyrant, pedophile, opportunist, rapist, and genocidal maniac that has ever walked the earth has been "just human." The fact that they also are in Martin's world and not demons, or possessed innocents is what makes his characters so rich and so great. There is no Sauron, no Lord of Evil, no Satan. Just humans (and white walkers, but they haven't been around for 8,000 years so...) I'm sorry, but I think you are the one who fails to understand the tone of the series.

Oh well, they missed the point then. We're not meant to relate to Robb.

We're not? Are we at least supposed to care? If we are, how do you propose to get an audience to care about a character? If not, why watch the show?

[Istakhr]

You lost me here. I must have missed that scene too. I don't recall Robb having a tantrum, or toys for that matter. I'm not usually one for consensus, but I think I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with those that think a moment of weakness with a nurse while (most likely) being doped up on milk of the poppy, then consciously breaking an oath in a misguided, medieval-aged concept of honor in order to somehow redeem her honor is somehow more understandable than love. I honestly don't get it, and I don't see the point in continuing the conversation.

A moment of weakness doesn't take days. He outright told his mother that he is going to be dishonorable because she made him angry and his honorable dad is dead. If that is not a petulant child throwing a tantrum I don't know what is.

Book Robb had a blind spot. TV Robb has a moral failure, he is an entitled selfish idiot.

The difference is between someone who tries to do the right thing and someone who knowingly does the wrong thing.

[Harrad]

Book Robb had a blind spot. TV Robb has a moral failure, he is an entitled selfish idiot.

The difference is between someone who tries to do the right thing and someone who knowingly does the wrong thing.

Book Robb was off-stage for all his important action. Fill in the blanks for what his excuses were for following his heart rather than his obligations. Same character, same actions, same results.

[Zod]

Thank you.

I don't understand why love is such an incomprehensible reason to marry someone and break a vow, but a moment of weakness when one is injured and most likely doped up on milk of the poppy is? In season 1 when Maester Aemon gave Jon the speech where he says "What is honor, compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of new born son in your arms? Or a brother' smile?" Were you rolling your eyes calling 'bullshit' on it?

I mean, yeah, fuck the producers for wanting to have a sexual relationship in season two that isn't rape, prostitution, or manipulative.

I ask this of the OP out of pure curiosity, no snark intended, but how many people do you know that haven't read the books but watch the show? Have you asked their opinion? What is their age/gender if I may ask?

As to the inclusion of Stoneheart, it depends on what Martin does with her character. As it stands right now at the end of Dance, I'm still unsure as to why she was brought back. That being said, I'm sure Martin has something amazing up his sleeve for her reason and it's going to kick my ass.

Lastly, to the titular topic of this thread, does Robb need to be redeemed? He fucks up and gets killed for it. Do you view Robb's crime as grievous as Theon's or Jaime's that he requires protracted redemption?

Most of the people that I know who watch the TV show have not read the books.

Also, most of the people that I know who read the books have not watched the TV show yet.

Weird, huh.

[Zod]

I still don't see how Book Robb is any less selfish and stupid. Even if we excuse him for having sex with Jeyne due to grief and all the pressure on him, he still didn't have to marry her. His honor demanded to keep his word to the Freys, his duty demanded that the interest of his millions of subjects take clear precendence before the interest of one girl whose family was fighting on the opposite side of the war.

All this "Jeyne's life wouldn't have been totally ruined since she was not a virgin anymore" claims makes no sense either. First, it would have been very easy to keep it a secret. Second, even if it's not kept a secret, Robb could easily offer money and lands to find her a good match in marriage.

Talisa would most likely be deemed as "deflowered" when she has sex with a second man, as her vaginal film thingy would be ripped/broken after her first intercourse.

Girls in G. R. R. M.'s story were not very active, so it would be very likely that the vaginal film thingy would not be ripped until upon their first intercourse.

Nowadays, girls are very active, which is why their vaginal film thingy would be ripped at childhood.

This is exactly why in many Arabic countries, checking a girl's vagina can determine whether or not she is a virgin, since they are not very active.

That was also why Egypt conducted random virginity tests on girls a few months back, which angered a lot of people.

[Stag's Fury]

But that's not entirely true in Westetos, especially for high born ladies like say...Margaret, who can easily have ripped it when out horse riding.

[Zod]

But that's not entirely true in Westetos, especially for high born ladies like say...Margaret, who can easily have ripped it when out horse riding.

Do you mean Princess Margaret, daughter of Queen Elizabeth II?

[Davos55]

I can't wait for him to get killed in the show. It better be amazing.

"Jaime Lannister sends his regards"

[Stag's Fury]

Do you mean Princess Margaret, daughter of Queen Elizabeth II?

lol stupid autospell on phone, I meant Margaery

[David Selig]

Talisa would most likely be deemed as "deflowered" when she has sex with a second man, as her vaginal film thingy would be ripped/broken after her first intercourse.

Girls in G. R. R. M.'s story were not very active, so it would be very likely that the vaginal film thingy would not be ripped until upon their first intercourse.

Nowadays, girls are very active, which is why their vaginal film thingy would be ripped at childhood.

This is exactly why in many Arabic countries, checking a girl's vagina can determine whether or not she is a virgin, since they are not very active.

That was also why Egypt conducted random virginity tests on girls a few months back, which angered a lot of people.

It's straight out shown in the books that the lack of hymen doesn't mean much for noble women in Westeros:

Still, the absence of a bloody sheet meant little, by itself. Common peasant girls bled like pigs upon their wedding nights, she had heard, but that was less true of highborn maids like Margaery Tyrell. A lord’s daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband

[teemo]

What redemption arc? Love you, Roose!

[teemo]

I can't wait for him to get killed in the show. It better be amazing.

"Jaime Lannister sends his regards"

hah, you beat me to it.

[Aubry]

Book Robb was off-stage for all his important action. Fill in the blanks for what his excuses were for following his heart rather than his obligations. Same character, same actions, same results.

I have to disagree with that. I think the character and actions are quite different. Robb was offstage but we know that he had just heard of his brothers' deaths at Theon's hands, we know he was injured and Jeyne nursed him, we know he felt guilty for what he had done, we know he was away from many of his counsellors at the time, and we know that he was very young with a rather naive idealisation of honour and chivalry. The HBO situation is entirely different. He's determined to have his own way regardless of the cost to the war effort. It recasts his character.

Even more than that, HBO have entirely changed the relationship between Cat and Robb at this point. Take the scene where a sheepish young Robb tricks his mother into buying the 'crazy things we do for love' line, and the aftermath where Cat sees the damage he's done, but reflects that he is terribly young, that there's an upside if Jeyne is healthy and can give him kids, and hopes things can be put right. Compare that to HBO's Robb who refuses counsel and marries Talisa not only in spite of his mother, but partly to spite her. My heart breaks for how human book Robb is and how hard he tries to do the right thing by everyone. HBO Robb is a selfish brat.

Talisa would most likely be deemed as "deflowered" when she has sex with a second man, as her vaginal film thingy would be ripped/broken after her first intercourse.

Girls in G. R. R. M.'s story were not very active, so it would be very likely that the vaginal film thingy would not be ripped until upon their first intercourse.

Nowadays, girls are very active, which is why their vaginal film thingy would be ripped at childhood.

This is exactly why in many Arabic countries, checking a girl's vagina can determine whether or not she is a virgin, since they are not very active.

That was also why Egypt conducted random virginity tests on girls a few months back, which angered a lot of people.

Hymen.

[Gryz the BlackSmith]

The reason Robb had to die was because what he did to Lord Rickard Karstark. He thought it was more important to keep up his "honor" to the enemy, then to be loyal to his own bannerman. I found that ridiculous. At that point, I didn't care that Robb was going to be murdered. He deserved it. It was just bad karma.

(While reading the books, I knew in advance Robb was going to die. Because some idiot put a little cross next to his name in some wikipedia. Thanks for that. I was very careful to not read spoilers, when I watched the tv-series. But that one was unavoidable. When I started reading the books, I then had to read 6000 pages without being able to consult any information from any website. The risk of spoilers was just too high).

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

You lost me here. I must have missed that scene too.

Then you're not watching very diligently.

I'm not usually one for consensus, but I think I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with those that think a moment of weakness with a nurse while (most likely) being doped up on milk of the poppy, then consciously breaking an oath in a misguided, medieval-aged concept of honor in order to somehow redeem her honor is somehow more understandable than love. I honestly don't get it, and I don't see the point in continuing the conversation.

The fact you are using modern standards as your sole criterion on which to judge Robb for his "misguided medieval honour" shows that you have missed the point. Robb is many good things, but he is no social activist.

I hate to be the one to have to tell you this but Cersei is human.

You've spectacularly missed my point.

So is Walder Frey and all his children. And Ned, and Arya, Joffrey, Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Tyrion, Maester Luwin, Khal Drogo, Osney Kettleblack, Mace Tyrell, Stannis, Randyll Tarly, Sam Tarly, I'm not willing to weigh in on Ramsay yet, there may be more going on there, but I think you get my point. While certainly a work of incredible fiction, the main characters in A Song of Ice and Fire are not aliens, robots, trolls, angels, lizards, or jellyfish. They are human characters with wants, needs, strengths, weaknesses, blind spots, flaws, aspirations, and goals. That's the true strength of the series. That Robb isn't some cookie cutter fantasy trope of the noble, wise, and righteous king. He has a blind spot. That Jaime isn't the cookie cutter fantasy trope of the noble knight. He's a real fucking asshole. That Ned was the cookie cutter fantasy trope of the noble, wise, and righteous lord, but it cost him his head. Cersei is a human who just happens to be an obsessively ambitious-driven maniac. Walder Frey is a human who just happens to be a duplicitous asshole. In believing those negative traits to be mutually exclusive to being human, I envy you that you haven't met a human being in your life who was a duplicitous asshole. They really suck.

Moreover, I certainly don't understand what you mean by "just human." You are "just human," as are your parents and your best friend. Every saint, prophet, tyrant, pedophile, opportunist, rapist, and genocidal maniac that has ever walked the earth has been "just human." The fact that they also are in Martin's world and not demons, or possessed innocents is what makes his characters so rich and so great. There is no Sauron, no Lord of Evil, no Satan. Just humans (and white walkers, but they haven't been around for 8,000 years so...) I'm sorry, but I think you are the one who fails to understand the tone of the series.

Yeah, you've missed the point, unless you were being purposefully facetious. The point is that by justifying idiocy and selfishness with the argument "oh he/she's just human", you simultaneously justify (or at least provide a get out clause for) thousands of other acts. Before anyone points out that Robb's transgression is minor compared to many others (though less so in the show), it's not jsut the scale of the justification, but also the grounds. The day that completely unjustifiable and purposefully selfish with no mitigating circumstances actions become semi-justifiable if not fully because people "are just human", a very slippery slope begins.

We're not? Are we at least supposed to care? If we are, how do you propose to get an audience to care about a character? If not, why watch the show?

Sympathy and empathy are two subtly but significantly different things.