Septa Mordane - Worst Teacher in Westeros?

[Lyanna Stark]

The good Septa's teaching methods do not get enough attention around here. In the light of how Dany fails at ruling due to lack of advisers and teachers, it's only fair to take a closer look at the Stark daughters' teacher.

First the good stuff: she teaches Sansa about the courtesey armour and is clearly pretty adept at teaching heraldry too.

But...the Septa manages to sell a rather crooked world view to Sansa, and seems to think it's totally ok to believe everything is like the songs and that southern chivalry is the end all and be all which seems fairly arbitrary in a North that has very few knights and which holds to a different religion. She also seems to have had a lot of influence on Sansa's take on the role of a lady, in that the septa has drilled her in being "proper" and not think for herself (the Septa is aghast when Sansa questions Ned's decision in front of Petyr Baelish).

She is also really, really mean to Arya, claims she has the hands of a blacksmith and completely ignores that she's left handed. Further, she also does what I think is her possibly worst crime: she clearly favours Sansa over Arya to the degree that Arya's self confidence is getting a severe dent in it. The Septa also seems to add to the sibling rivalvy between Arya and Sansa in a way no teacher should.

To what degree do you think the Septa is responsible for Sansa's not questioning things in AGOT? And what is her responsibility for poor Arya's dented self confidence? Perhaps even more interestingly, should the Septa take some of the blame for Sansa's and Arya's sibling rivalry?

[Julian Rayne]

One of my cousins used to be beaten by nuns for writing with his left hand and also for not producing perfectly good writing with his right hand. He lived in a constant state of fear. Thirty years later, he still cannot speak without stuttering.

When I read about Septa Mordane, I couldn't help remembering the stories he used to tell me. I cannot give you an objective assessment of Septa Mordane because my thoughts about her amount to little more than 'kill it with fire'.

[Pellaeon]

Mordane wasn't instruct to teach Lords, her duty was to educate Ladys to marry off, I'm sure total trust up to submissiveness is part of the westerosi or at least the faiths perception of women. In hindsight she was a bad teacher but the question is how different she was to other septas

[Natalie_S]

I went to a school managed by nuns for a while and I definitely can see the parallel.

They're the worst kind of teacher in my opinion: on the surface they tell you you have to be nice to everyone but they subtly support the petty rivalries and the exploitation of the weakest.

I'm not saying every single nun is like this, but in my experience there's a pretty high percentage.

So, I agree, I have no sympathy for Septa Mordane or her teaching method.

[Jolene Brown]

I am conducting a one-woman hate campaign against Septa Roelle, Brienne's septa, who I think is even worse than Septa Mordane. She constantly taught Brienne to second-guess herself, reminding her constantly of how ugly she was and that anyone who said otherwise or was nice to her at all was only courting her father's favor. She was sort of the Septa version of Randyll Tarly, in my opinion, except that at least Randyll Tarly TRIED (however awfully) to get Sam to improve himself, while Septa Roelle seemed to have as her sole mission in life making sure Brienne's self-esteem was as low as possible. No wonder she fell for Renly, as soon as he showed her the slightest amount of positive attention. I hate you Septa Roelle.

[Winter's Knight]

I was just saying to myself, "I wonder if Lyanna and Co. would mind me nicking their idea for a Septa Mordane thread." :P

Re: Sibling rivalry,

I was flicking through the Stark girls' chapters in GoT and noticed that Sansa wishes Arya spent more time with her and be like Mycella.

She also "covers" for her with Septa Mordane on occasion:

“And where is Arya this morning?”

“She wasn’t hungry,” Sansa said, knowing full well that her sister had probably stolen down to the kitchen hours ago and wheedled a breakfast out of some cook’s boy.

I think Septa Mordane was a product of the patriarchy in reference to syllabus and a mediocre teacher-she taught the girls how to look pretty, practice their courtesies and be ladylike but she doesn't to have a rapport or sense of responsibility towards either of the girls.

There's no mention made of her being nice to them or being particularly attentive. In the text I quoted above, Arya s missing at breakfast while they are camping on the way to KL and she isn't worried. Arya regularly disappears this way throughout the trip and she doesn't mind.

That same day Sansa rides off with Joff and there is again no mention made of the Septa knowing or caring.

I don't care how well the girls can take care of themselves-to let them wander around a chaotic camp alone at such a young age is idiocy. Is it any wonder that Arya gets into mischief?

[Lyanna Stark]

I am conducting a one-woman hate campaign against Septa Roelle, Brienne's septa, who I think is even worse than Septa Mordane.

Good point. Septa Roelle seems to be really, really terrible and has done a similar number on Brienne (if not worse) that Septa Mordane did on Arya.

She constantly taught Brienne to second-guess herself, reminding her constantly of how ugly she was and that anyone who said otherwise or was nice to her at all was only courting her father's favor. She was sort of the Septa version of Randyll Tarly, in my opinion, except that at least Randyll Tarly TRIED (however awfully) to get Sam to improve himself, while Septa Roelle seemed to have as her sole mission in life making sure Brienne's self-esteem was as low as possible. No wonder she fell for Renly, as soon as he showed her the slightest amount of positive attention. I hate you Septa Roelle.

I think even worse than the ugly bit, Septa Roelle also seem to have told Brienne that she was stupid. I remember Brienne thinking to herself that she had asked something of Septa Roelle and got told immidiately that she was stupid. So not only was the Septa constantly reminding Brienne that she was ugly, she also managed to get Brienne to think she was stupid. What a hideous woman, ugh.

[Maia]

I don't care how well the girls can take care of themselves-to let them wander around a chaotic camp alone at such a young age is idiocy. Is it any wonder that Arya gets into mischief?

Well, IIRC Mordane does try to corral Arya, but Ned intervenes and allows her to run around as pleases ;).

Also, I assume the idea is that nobody would dare to threaten or abuse these children.

And in the world that contains Alliser Thorne (!) surely there is a pretty stiff competition for the title of the worst teacher!

[Lyanna Stark]

I was just saying to myself, "I wonder if Lyanna and Co. would mind me nicking their idea for a Septa Mordane thread." :P

Yeah I think the Septa needs a bit more flak. However, what is interesting to consider as well is the Faith's stand on things. I am guessing the Septas must get their training somewhere, and from what we can tell based on Mordane, Roelle and the Septas Cersei encounter later, they seem a fairly reactionary bunch hell bent on keeping women in their place. I wonder if this is a subtle dig at the reactionary forces of religion and a hint at what's to come with the rearming of the Faith?

Re: Sibling rivalry,

I was flicking through the Stark girls' chapters in GoT and noticed that Sansa wishes Arya spent more time with her and be like Mycella.

She also "covers" for her with Septa Mordane on occasion:

Yes, I found it interesting too that Sansa covers for Arya here. This goes against the common held notion that Sansa hates and disdains Arya. I can understand that Arya assumes Sansa is totally onboard with Septa Mordane's view, since I think the Septa probably lets people believe that everyone agrees with her and Ayra is in the Wrong. Which is why I firmly believe the Septa is to blame to a degree for their sibling rivarly. She actively wotrks to undermine their loyalty to eachother.

I don't care how well the girls can take care of themselves-to let them wander around a chaotic camp alone at such a young age is idiocy. Is it any wonder that Arya gets into mischief?

True. And then the Septa gets to drunk at the Hand's tourney party that the Hound has to escort Sansa back. We don't get any indication that she even got a reproach for this either.

[adreamer]

Septa Moradane for me is the product of her time and fate. She is neither very good, neither bad. She defenetly haven't put much heart in to her work - given Aryas situation. I think Cat and Ned are to blame here, after all septa is just a teacher and if she is not good enough, it's their job to see to that. But we see Ned speaking to Arya that they gave imposible task to Mordain sinse Arya is to wild - so I guess this notion gave Septa Mordane excuse not to put much effort with Arya.

As to songs and dreams - the north seems to be to vast and poorly populated, long distanses, not much was happening there, so it was only natural that Sansa is so naive and dreams of this whole new world that awaits her. I think all the Stark kids are very naive (each of them in their own way) in the beggining and all of them learn the truth the harsh way. I can hardly blame septa Moradaine for that. It's just the collision between two very different wordls.

[Natalie_S]

Septa Lemore looks cool though. She probably would have made a better teacher.

At the very least, Arya and Sansa would be excellent swimmers.

[Ice Turtle]

I don't think any septa we met was a bad person, but the system they represent is flawed.

Septa Roelle actually gave Brienne similar advice that Tyrion gave Jon, Brienne is physically unattractive, that make her no worse person, but it's important for Brienne to acknowledge the fact or she is going to get hurt. Far worse was when she told her she was stupid just because she asked a question.

Sansa is as close to official (Southorn) ideal of woman as you get. KL is a nest of vipers, but if she married some lord that would held her out of politics like Kevan did with his wife she would be fine, prepared enough for life she was supposed to lead.

No septa, that was being good at being septa would be good for Arya.

[The Storm Queen]

I am conducting a one-woman hate campaign against Septa Roelle, Brienne's septa, who I think is even worse than Septa Mordane. She constantly taught Brienne to second-guess herself, reminding her constantly of how ugly she was and that anyone who said otherwise or was nice to her at all was only courting her father's favor. She was sort of the Septa version of Randyll Tarly, in my opinion, except that at least Randyll Tarly TRIED (however awfully) to get Sam to improve himself, while Septa Roelle seemed to have as her sole mission in life making sure Brienne's self-esteem was as low as possible. No wonder she fell for Renly, as soon as he showed her the slightest amount of positive attention. I hate you Septa Roelle.

You got me on board: Now it is a two-women hate campaign. Poor Brienne! It really speakes for her (and possible also for the love she received by her father) that she turned out as such a loving and caring person

Yeah I think the Septa needs a bit more flak. However, what is interesting to consider as well is the Faith's stand on things. I am guessing the Septas must get their training somewhere, and from what we can tell based on Mordane, Roelle and the Septas Cersei encounter later, they seem a fairly reactionary bunch hell bent on keeping women in their place. I wonder if this is a subtle dig at the reactionary forces of religion and a hint at what's to come with the rearming of the Faith?

Some months ago, I had a short discussion about the Silent Sisters and the Septa and how they get recruted. Guesses were that the Silent Sisters are either convicted criminals (making the sisters the female version of the Wall) or victims of (sexual) abuse who found a sanctuary there. But who gets to be a septa? On the first glance it looks like a nice offer for a young girl in a minor nobleborn family: Instead of marrying someone like Walder Frey they get the possibility to aquire at least some education and retain a bit more independence. But all the septas we meet (with the exception of "Septa" Lemore) are portrayed as very flawed and reactionary. So who are they: Wayward daughters like Amerei Frey who are sent there to be broken? Or young women from very minor noble families/well-off craftmen families whose social insecurities and envy vis-a-vis the richer girls are subtly manipulated?

Yes, I found it interesting too that Sansa covers for Arya here. This goes against the common held notion that Sansa hates and disdains Arya. I can understand that Arya assumes Sansa is totally onboard with Septa Mordane's view, since I think the Septa probably lets people believe that everyone agrees with her and Ayra is in the Wrong. Which is why I firmly believe the Septa is to blame to a degree for their sibling rivarly. She actively wotrks to undermine their loyalty to eachother.

True. And then the Septa gets to drunk at the Hand's tourney party that the Hound has to escort Sansa back. We don't get any indication that she even got a reproach for this either.

[Winter's Knight]

I think even worse than the ugly bit, Septa Roelle also seem to have told Brienne that she was stupid. I remember Brienne thinking to herself that she had asked something of Septa Roelle and got told immidiately that she was stupid. So not only was the Septa constantly reminding Brienne that she was ugly, she also managed to get Brienne to think she was stupid. What a hideous woman, ugh.

I remember that:

Many holy brothers wore such tonsures. Septa Roelle once told her that it was meant to show that they had nothing to hide from the Father. “Can’t the Father see through hair?” Brienne had asked. A stupid thing to say. She had been a slow child; Septa Roelle often told her so. She felt near as stupid now, so she took the little man’s place at the end of the bench, signaled for stew, and turned to thank the dwarf.

I can only imagine that the Septa didn't like Brienne questioning the Faith.

[SerStinger]

I agree, she was one of the characters I hated. Although, I didn't feel that there was any dent in Arya's confidence. Was there?

[Winter's Knight]

You got me on board: Now it is a two-women hate campaign. Poor Brienne! It really speakes for her (and possible also for the love she received by her father) that she turned out as such a loving and caring person

Three woman-is that enough to justify making badges?

[Winter's Knight]

I agree, she was one of the characters I hated. Although, I didn't feel that there was any dent in Arya's confidence. Was there?

I remember Arya thinking that her mother wouldn't take her back because she looked so filthy-does that count?

[SerStinger]

That certainly counts, but how frequent are those episodes?

[Winter's Knight]

That certainly counts, but how frequent are those episodes?

It's a bit hard to untangle all the possible trauma Arya may be carrying at the moment.

[Lady Winter Rose]

...

and completely ignores that she's left handed. Further, she also does what I think is her possibly worst crime: she clearly favours Sansa over Arya to the degree that Arya's self confidence is getting a severe dent in it.

1) I don't understand what do you mean by "completely ignores that she's left handed". I think this is a good thing.

I.E. http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvjgu2NqTb1qjzlvho1_500.jpg

2) I always knew she favors Sansa because she is the older daughter and she had better chances to become more powerful than Arya than Arya. I.E. Sansa becoming crown prince's future wife.