Septa Mordane - Worst Teacher in Westeros?

[Natalie_S]

I agree, she was one of the characters I hated. Although, I didn't feel that there was any dent in Arya's confidence. Was there?

The septa examined the fabric. “Arya, Arya, Arya,” she said. “This will not do. This will not do at all.”

Everyone was looking at her. It was too much. Sansa was too well bred to smile at her sister’s disgrace, but Jeyne was smirking on her behalf. Even Princess Myrcella looked sorry for her. Arya felt tears filling her eyes. She pushed herself out of her chair and bolted for the door.

Septa Mordane called after her. “Arya, come back here! Don’t you take another step! Your lady mother will hear of this. In front of our royal princess too! You’ll shame us all!”

[...]

It wasn’t fair. Sansa had everything. Sansa was two years older; maybe by the time Arya had been born, there had been nothing left. Often it felt that way. Sansa could sew and dance and sing. She wrote poetry. She knew how to dress. She played the high harp and the bells. Worse, she was beautiful. Sansa had gotten their mother’s fine high cheekbones and the thick auburn hair of the Tullys. Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface, and neigh whenever she came near.

[...]

The wolf pup loved her, even if no one else did.

She definitely has the feeling of being worthless compared to Sansa and unloved.

This definitely counts as low self esteem to me.

[The Storm Queen]

Three woman-is that enough to justify making badges?

Three woman-is that enough to justify making badges?

Sure! If you already busy with this I´d really also take one for Davos/Stannis and Stalin and the Sheik, too :-)

[SerStinger]

She definitely has the feeling of being worthless compared to Sansa and unloved.

This definitely counts as low self esteem to me.

I felt that she was angry rather than having a low self-esteem. She has a firm idea of who she is and does what she wants to do, and is one of the strongest characters. And she looks down on Sansa.

[Natalie_S]

I felt that she was angry rather than having a low self-esteem. She has a firm idea of who she is and does what she wants to do, and is one of the strongest characters. And she looks down on Sansa.

I don't know, I've always felt that Arya looked down on Sansa to cover her insecurities.

She would want to be like Sansa at some level, but she is angry because she doesn't manage to and so responds with denial.

I think that deep down she has the feeling that she's never good enough, which would explain her absurd worry of meeting her mother covered in dirt.

[SerStinger]

I don't know, I've always felt that Arya looked down on Sansa to cover her insecurities.

She would want to be like Sansa at some level, but she is angry because she doesn't manage to and so responds with denial.

I think that deep down she has the feeling that she's never good enough, which would explain her absurd worry of meeting her mother covered in dirt.

That's a very interesting and educative way to look at it, and it opens a new horizon of interpretation to me. Now I want to reread those parts from your perspective.

[David Selig]

Where exactly is said that the Septa made Arya use her right hand? I don't recall any mention of this.

[Scipio Africanus]

To what degree do you think the Septa is responsible for Sansa's not questioning things in AGOT? And what is her responsibility for poor Arya's dented self confidence? Perhaps even more interestingly, should the Septa take some of the blame for Sansa's and Arya's sibling rivalry?

You're thinking of Septa Mordane as a real life teacher - someone (supposedly) knowledgable on a certain subject and trying to convey this knowledge upon his/her student.

And you want her to be a modrn day school counciler as well.

I never thought of Mordane is a regular teacher. Or as a mentor. For one thing I doubt Mordane ever had that much experience in life. For all we know she's served her whole life for the Faith. And probably she speant much of her life instructing young girls for privaliged families. That makes parting life wisdoms a bit more difficult. She might have had experience instructing other girls but she probably has limited knowledge of the big bad world out there. Aka no street smarts.

And I deliberately use the word instruct. Mordane is not there to teach the girls much. She's there to intruct them on how to behave like a noblewoman. How to be the pretty bird in the cage, destined to be carted off to be wed to some lordling. And that's the limit of her perogatives, and something Catelyn would've wanted.

As for the sibling rivalry...you blame Mordane unjust in this one. Mordane is doing what she's being paid for. She's a bad teacher in the sense that she's not handling Arya very well, but again she's not there to teach but to instruct. That Sansa is a better pupil is because Arya has no interest in the stuff Mordane teaches, which makes any child rebellious unless you convince them otherwise as a teacher. Which Mordane was not.

[Jolene Brown]

Septa Lemore does make an interesting contrast to the other Septas we've seen, perhaps that is why there are so many suspicions about her real identity.

I will never stop laughing at the part of AFFC where the Septas tell Cercei she must feel as innocent as a bride on her wedding day after confessing some of her sins (I think? Is this after she admitted to having sex with Lancel and the Kettleblacks?) and she thinks to herself that she fucked Jaime on her wedding day. Ah, Cercei. You have your flaws, but you're hilarious.

[Natalie_S]

I think Septa Mordane was the equivalent of a governess, much like, say, Jane Eyre.

So I believe she definitely had an educative purpose beyond the mere instruction on how to complete certain tasks (like needlework or playing the harp).

[Lyanna Stark]

I don't know, I've always felt that Arya looked down on Sansa to cover her insecurities.

She would want to be like Sansa at some level, but she is angry because she doesn't manage to and so responds with denial.

I think that deep down she has the feeling that she's never good enough, which would explain her absurd worry of meeting her mother covered in dirt.

Absolutely.

This is reflected in how she thinks "there was nothing left" for her once Sansa got all the good things and how she thinks her mother won't want her now when she's dirty. Arya has an inferiority complex when it comes to Sansa and it's no unusual in younger sisters with a "good girl" older sister.

That is why I don't like how Septa Mordane is treating Arya since she's basically working at expanding the rift between the sisters that's been formed. By being so mean to Arya and presenting her view as the objective truth, Arya is led to believe that she really is objectively inferior and Sansa is made to believe that Arya is somehow lacking, on top of their already existing sibling rivalry based on differing interests and wishes.

[Currawong]

In addition to Septa Lemore, can I give my own little cheer for Septa Donyse, whom Jaime sent to look after Brienne in KL. Septa Donyse managed to find a dress for Brienne in a nice colour, ensure that it fitted, and was padded out to give the poor girl some shape. She must have done a good job, for Jaime notices the colour and compliments Brienne on her appearance. And Jaime is not given to making compliments just for the sake of being polite ;)

We don't know what Septa Donyse privately thinks of Brienne of course, but I'd like to think she was nice to her, especially after what Brienne had been through. Good to think that there are at least a couple of septas who may not be the same type as Mordane and Rouelle.

[Ice Turtle]

Septa Lemore does make an interesting contrast to the other Septas we've seen, perhaps that is why there are so many suspicions about her real identity.

I will never stop laughing at the part of AFFC where the Septas tell Cercei she must feel as innocent as a bride on her wedding day after confessing some of her sins (I think? Is this after she admitted to having sex with Lancel and the Kettleblacks?) and she thinks to herself that she fucked Jaime on her wedding day. Ah, Cercei. You have your flaws, but you're hilarious.

Now I wonder has Cersei ever mentioned her own Septa? What type of relationship they had? I doubt Cersei was like Sansa, but I don't think that she was as rebellious as Arya either.

[shaggydog's trainer]

Now I wonder has Cersei ever mentioned her own Septa? What type of relationship they had? I doubt Cersei was like Sansa, but I don't think that she was as rebellious as Arya either.

Now a poster her mentioned Jayne Eyre I suddnely see Cersei as the Blanche i.e Septa/Governess there to to ignored or tormented due to that Lannester feeling of self worth

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Absolutely.

This is reflected in how she thinks "there was nothing left" for her once Sansa got all the good things and how she thinks her mother won't want her now when she's dirty. Arya has an inferiority complex when it comes to Sansa and it's no unusual in younger sisters with a "good girl" older sister.

That is why I don't like how Septa Mordane is treating Arya since she's basically working at expanding the rift between the sisters that's been formed. By being so mean to Arya and presenting her view as the objective truth, Arya is led to believe that she really is objectively inferior and Sansa is made to believe that Arya is somehow lacking, on top of their already existing sibling rivalry based on differing interests and wishes.

Now I'm thinking of it.. I'm Arya, my sister is Sansa. Oh joy. While my sister's character is more like that of Arya, while my character is more like Sansa. Complex.

But, well, who would like the treatment of Arya by Septa Mordane? No one, plus I don't think Sansa likes it.. She covers for her sometimes, that really surprised me while re-reading.

They have to reunite!

[Daena the Defiant]

Well, a very lapsed Catholic school girl, I feel as if I must stand up for the good nuns who taught me - they were very (very, VERY) strict but taught us the value of discipline and tidiness, the joy in a well ordered classroom and pride in creating organized, well prepared and presented work product, and yes, Catholic praxis aside, those fine women instilled in us the notion that women can be intellectuals too. I had several sisters teaching me who had were working on second and third masters degrees, who were fluent in many languages and a few who also were registered nurses and physicians assistants while also being educators.

However - Septa Mordane's job was not to produce free-thinking young women who could surf the waves of court politics, manipulate the levels of power in a regency capacity or any of that: she was to train refined young women who would serve as decorations to their lord husbands and have some basic numeracy and literacy to help the household steward run her household, or at the very least, understand what the steward was doing. It would be up to the parents to prepare their daughters (and sons) how to govern and how to swim in the currents of power in a feudal system.

There is a very telling passage early in aGoT that shows how badly Ned and Catelyn were in this respect - how Ned is horrified that Sansa was watching him hold court whhen he was dealing the Lannister terrorist raids on the Riverlands - "this is no place for a girl!, she should be watching farmers dispute over the placement of border stones" - except, Ned, you brought her to court to be the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms: as one of the highest placed noble demoiselles short of Princess Myrcella, it is expected that she will be able to run the castle and even the domains in a regency capacity should her husband be away or die prematurely. Which is exactly what he expected of Catelyn as he left her to do in Winterfell (and even envisions her calling the banners to war to march on the capitol later) - he clearly thought her well prepared and up to the task. We also see that is what Lady Arryn is doing at that very moment in the story and was Cersei ends up doing later. And yet, Ned is appalled that Sansa is watching the government in action dealing with unrest and bloodshed. Talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations.

The fact that Arya the spunky tomboy ninja-assassin-in-training might be more appealing to the audience does not take away the fact that the daughter of one of the greatest ruling houses of nobility should not be filthy and scabby and uncouth and would in fact be shunned and humiliated by the women of her class, and to that extent, would be a failure - if you have ever read any Jane Austen you will immediately recognize what GRRM has presented us with the Tyrell women: gloriously refined, social creatures who furiously network behind the scenes and ultimately control everyone's destiny.

To the extent that she created Sansa who would be plugged right into that sphere, Septa Mordane did very well. The fact that she was aghast at what Arya was and how she would be a liability to her parents and ultimately fail socially if she didn't do her best to peel away her rough edges doesn't make her a bad person. Jeeze.

Not every little girl can grow up and be a sexually free pirate ship captain or a knight-maiden on a quest or a Jedi assassin. Those that are are socially stigmatized outcasts.

edit: syntax

[Daena the Defiant]



Where exactly is said that the Septa made Arya use her right hand? I don;t recall any mention of this.

In it is an inference made by some from the fact that she does terrible handiwork but then we learn with Syrio that she is left-handed, so people impute some slyness to GRRM that the reason why she has such dreadful legerdemain is that she if left-handed but Septa Mordane was probably training her to do needlework with her right.

edit: missing a few prepositions.

[Liar]

And in the world that contains Alliser Thorne (!) surely there is a pretty stiff competition for the title of the worst teacher!

Ser Alliser Thorne must be one of the better suited master-at-arms known. He is as cruel as any foe would be, he's training soldiers! Him being a dick the rest of the time is another matter.

OP: Also having attended a school of nuns, I couldn't help but notice the similarities, yes, she's a terrible teacher, much worse in Winterfell with winter coming and all.

[RedBean]

I always thought Septa Mordane was somewhat incompetent. She didn't seem to be an overly bright woman, and I remember that she fell asleep drunk at the table at some feast, and the Hound had to escort Sansa back. I'm not sure she's completely to blame for Arya's insecurities, though. Arya was not a lady, and she had no intention of being one and worse, neither of her parents really tried to keep her in check when she ran away from her studies or anything. It would be a job and a half to take care of Arya tbh, and I'm not surprised that Septa Mordane, who isn't an exceptional teacher to say the least, failed at it. So, no I don't think she's the "worst" teacher in Westeros, but she wasn't a very good one.

[Scipio Africanus]

Ser Alliser Thorne must be one of the better suited master-at-arms known. He is as cruel as any foe would be, he's training soldiers! Him being a dick the rest of the time is another matter.

Thorne is a modern day drill instructor. You can't be nice if you're whipping men in shape within a certain amount of time for combat situations and a change of thinking in that they will obey order.

[Kittykatknits]

Mordane wasn't instruct to teach Lords, her duty was to educate Ladys to marry off, I'm sure total trust up to submissiveness is part of the westerosi or at least the faiths perception of women. In hindsight she was a bad teacher but the question is how different she was to other septas

The idea that a woman who has never been either a wife or a mother is best suited on how to teach another woman how to be either strikes me as the height of identi

You got me on board: Now it is a two-women hate campaign. Poor Brienne! It really speakes for her (and possible also for the love she received by her father) that she turned out as such a loving and caring person

Make that a fourth. These two plus the Septas with Cersei who were downright frightening. They seem to illustrate the idea that woman can serve and reinforce patriarchy just as much as men.

I agree, she was one of the characters I hated. Although, I didn't feel that there was any dent in Arya's confidence. Was there?

I felt that she was angry rather than having a low self-esteem. She has a firm idea of who she is and does what she wants to do, and is one of the strongest characters. And she looks down on Sansa.

I don't know, I've always felt that Arya looked down on Sansa to cover her insecurities.

She would want to be like Sansa at some level, but she is angry because she doesn't manage to and so responds with denial.

I think that deep down she has the feeling that she's never good enough, which would explain her absurd worry of meeting her mother covered in dirt.

I don't really have anything to add to what Natalie_S is saying other than that I agree with her. It's especially noticeable in GOT. Arya's mentions of what she believes are her shortcoming or imperfections are all associated with comments from Septa Mordane. The Septa constantly compares the two sisters which then fuels the sibling rivalry between the two.