Mance Raydar and Jon Snow's relationship

[Winterfellian]

@ Thero_of_the_north, Welcome!

While this might be true, it doesn't speak to the practicality of the situation. Mance would still have won anyway had Stannis not interfered, and Mance is aware that Jon has argued for Mance's life, and protected Val, Dalla, and his baby during the battle with Stannis.

About the bold part, I might have missed it but how do we know that Mance knows about Jon protecting Dall and Val? I don't think he does. We know from Jon's own POV that he stayed in the tent to protect them, but the "official story" is that he captured them and delivered them to Stannis.

From what I gather in ASOS Mance was pretty isolated and visited by Stannis who might have repeated the official version to him. Even Sam (Jon's greatest supporter) notes in his POV that Jon has captured them.

Mance is also probably ignorant of Jons pleadings to Stannis for his life. I seriously doubt Mel will tell him either as in her POV she strikes me as a woman who like others to be endebted to her alone.

I do agree with you that you thet theirs is a practical relationship and there is definitely a grudging respect from both sides, but I think there is many reasons for Mance to dislike Jon.

[FanTasy]

While this might be true, it doesn't speak to the practicality of the situation. Mance would still have won anyway had Stannis not interfered, and Mance is aware that Jon has argued for Mance's life, and protected Val, Dalla, and his baby during the battle with Stannis.

Not to say you are wrong in stating this, but I'm curious, is there some reference in the for how Mance knows this? Maybe someone told him, but is it certain Mance knows? I'm a bit doubtful about if Mance knows about the baby switch either, maybe he still thinks the baby at the Wall is his?

[David C. Hunter]

Not to say you are wrong in stating this, but I'm curious, is there some reference in the for how Mance knows this? Maybe someone told him, but is it certain Mance knows? I'm a bit doubtful about if Mance knows about the baby switch either, maybe he still thinks the baby at the Wall is his?

Someone had to tell him. Does Mel know the truth?

[pat]

These 2 will fight to the Death at some point Imo.

Jon Snow LC NW King of the wildlings vs Mance warrior Poet King

[Arya Targaryen]

About the bold part, I might have missed it but how do we know that Mance knows about Jon protecting Dall and Val? I don't think he does. We know from Jon's own POV that he stayed in the tent to protect them, but the "official story" is that he captured them and delivered them to Stannis.

From what I gather in ASOS Mance was pretty isolated and visited by Stannis who might have repeated the official version to him. Even Sam (Jon's greatest supporter) notes in his POV that Jon has captured them.

Mance is also probably ignorant of Jons pleadings to Stannis for his life. I seriously doubt Mel will tell him either as in her POV she strikes me as a woman who like others to be endebted to her alone.

1) Mance was isolated, while he was MANCE. As Rattleshirt, he could move anywhere he wanted. He ate in the common room, he even overheard Marsh and co. while plotting (I think he mentioned it in Mel's chapter.) In one of Jon's POV in Jon's thoughts there was a mention about people gossiping about how he defended Val and the baby, meaning he is still on the wildlings' side. (and how others interpreted this as he held them captive) - I'm sure Mance could have heard such gossips, he was around quite a lot.

2) He knows Jon tried to save him because Mel told him, when he revealed him to Jon. Mance knows, that Mel saved him specifically because Jon wanted to save him, but he lacked the means to it, so Mel did it.

3) Jon tells Rattleshirt that Stannis has burnt the wrong man - so Mance knows that Jon would want him alive instead of Rattleshirt (and he agrees! saying the right man was burnt.)

4) Mance left before Jon let Tormund through the Wall, so he definitely doesn't know that.

[redriver]

I'm in the grudging respect and practical relationship camp.Let's face it,the relationship was never warm at any point.But Mance knew who Jon was-"Ned Stark's bastard,the Snow of Winterfell",Jon uses the bastard card to earn his chance with Rayder,but I don't think he trusts him.

That get's it's first test when Mance comes to the Fist and the devastated camp of the NW."You should never have lied to me,Jon Snow".But he gives him a reprieve,when Jon says he still wears the cloak he gave him.In fact cloaks have been central to both encounters,so far.

The Magnar is concerned that Jon's heart may still be black."

"Then cut it out",says Mance.Basically he may be of use, but kill him if he makes a wrong move.

Why all the pink letters?Later!

The next encounter is when Slynt sends Jon to kill Mance.Cloaks get mentioned again,but it's the giant warhorn which draws Jon's attention.Mance confirms it's the Horn of Joramun,and admits lying about it's having been found.And in his next comment we get the idea about this relationship-"Did you think only crows could lie?I liked you well enough,for a bastard.....but I never trusted you.A man has to earn my trust."

Mance proposes that if the free folk are allowed through the Wall,he will not sound the horn,but if they don't he will have Tormund sound it in three days time,at dawn.

This sounds a bit of a bluff,especially since both Dalla and Mance acknowledge that the Wall is a true barrier to the Others.The true enemy,and I think this remains the truth as Abel plucks his lute in Winterfell much later.But we might never know because Stannis arrives...

So here at the end of ASOS there is grudging mutual respect,but little trust.Stannis asks Jon if there is honor in Mance Rayder-"Yes.I think so."Here,Stannis states his intention to allow any wildlings through the Wall who will bend the knee to him and offers to legitimize Jon,make him Lord of Winterfell and marry him to Val.Jon,unfortunately,needs time to think about this.Well,he has to burn the weirwoods and offer Winterfell to the red god....

But thanks to Sam,Jon gets elected LC.Things change..

Will post this and complete it later.

[FanTasy]

Why all the pink letters?Later!

Thanks for the first big smile of today :cheers:

[Tagganaro]

@ Thero_of_the_north, Welcome!

About the bold part, I might have missed it but how do we know that Mance knows about Jon protecting Dall and Val? I don't think he does. We know from Jon's own POV that he stayed in the tent to protect them, but the "official story" is that he captured them and delivered them to Stannis.

From what I gather in ASOS Mance was pretty isolated and visited by Stannis who might have repeated the official version to him. Even Sam (Jon's greatest supporter) notes in his POV that Jon has captured them.

Mance is also probably ignorant of Jons pleadings to Stannis for his life. I seriously doubt Mel will tell him either as in her POV she strikes me as a woman who like others to be endebted to her alone.

I do agree with you that you thet theirs is a practical relationship and there is definitely a grudging respect from both sides, but I think there is many reasons for Mance to dislike Jon.

Not to say you are wrong in stating this, but I'm curious, is there some reference in the for how Mance knows this? Maybe someone told him, but is it certain Mance knows? I'm a bit doubtful about if Mance knows about the baby switch either, maybe he still thinks the baby at the Wall is his?

Fair enough. I'm not sure that has been confirmed at all, but I would have thought Mance would know about it, based on all the time he spent with Melisandre (who seems to be using him to try and get in Jon's good graces, seems like something she would tell him).

I highly doubt he knows about the baby switch. No reason he would.

That being said, Mance would 99% know about Jon pleading for his life in a manner of speaking- Jon said this directly to "Rattleshirt" before their duel, i.e. "Stannis burned the wrong man" or something along those lines. Additionally, Melisandre tells Mance this when she reveals him to Jon- "You have Jon to thank for your life".

As I've said, I think it's somewhat clear (although in a tricky way since Mance is a tough person to judge) that while Mance may not like Jon a lot, there is a grudging respect based on practicality and time spent together and a little bit of like. They both know how to get things done, they both know who the real enemy is, and they have some things in common at their core.

[FanTasy]

As I've said, I think it's somewhat clear (although in a tricky way since Mance is a tough person to judge) that while Mance may not like Jon a lot, there is a grudging respect based on practicality and time spent together and a little bit of like. They both know how to get things done, they both know who the real enemy is, and they have some things in common at their core.

I agree. But respect might not stop Mance from killing Jon if this is in his (Mance's) interest. I guess to become and stay king beyond the wall you must be capable of being ruthless in dealing with people who block your goals.

We don't know what Mance wants now that he is south of the Wall. He lost his wife, his son is a hostage, he lost his kingship.

Somehow I don't think he will settle for a farm in the Gift or settle for a wandering life as a bard.

[Arya Targaryen]

I agree. But respect might not stop Mance from killing Jon if this is in his (Mance's) interest. I guess to become and stay king beyond the wall you must be capable of being ruthless in dealing with people who block your goals.

We don't know what Mance wants now that he is south of the Wall. He lost his wife, his son is a hostage, he lost his kingship.

Somehow I don't think he will settle for a farm in the Gift or settle for a wandering life as a bard.

But the question is: what are Mance's goals? I suspect (though I'm far from sure) that kingship was just the means, not the goal itself. He gathered all the people to fight against the Others. To gather them he needed to be respected, he needed to be their king. Did he enjoy being king? Certainy he does (and in a way, Jon does enjoy being LC - because he has the means to do what he thinks is right. If someone else would have been elected, Jon may still have friends, but he would feel miserable anyway if that LC doesn't do the right/necessary things)

I think Mance's main goal is to keep his people alive. At this point Jon is his best chance, and he knows it.

[redriver]

Thanks for the first big smile of today :cheers:

Thanks FanTasy,more pink letters coming up!

Without going into all the background context in ADWD,we learn that Mance has been glamored as Rattleshirt and that it was the Lord o' Bones who got burned in the cage by Stannis.So in much of the interactions between the two,Jon does not realize it's really Mance.

Stan and Mel present RS to Jon who says he doesn't want him,he can't be trusted,he will go back to the widlings.

"Not me.I'm done with those bloody fools."Rattleshirt tapped the ruby on his wrist."Ask your red witch,bastard"

"I'll range for you,bastard,"Rattleshirt declared."I'll give you sage counsel or sing you pretty songs,as you prefer.I'll even fight for you.Just don't ask me to wear your cloak."

Cloaks again.That's 4/4.Just behind bastard,which sometimes Mance manages to fit in twice a sentence-"Reach for that bastard sword and I'll have your bastard head off before it clears it's scabbard."(ASOS).

The offer to range,counsel,sing and fight is genuine,imo.

It's worth noting that Mance is present at most of the ensuing discussion between Jon and Stannis,when they discuss Stannis' strategy against the Boltons.

By the time they next meet Jon has persuaded most of the Mole Town free folk to join the cause at the Wall,without having to join the NW.That must have gladdened Mance's heart somewhat,as quite a few of Stannis' captured wildlings bent the knee and pledged to red rooler.

So we find Jon taking on some raw recruits 3 on 1 in the training yard,and winning,but a voice growls-"The big crow can peck the little crow,but has he belly enough to fight a man?"It's Rattleshirt.

Jon-"Stannis burned the wrong man"

"No." the wildling grinned...."He burned the man he had to burn,for all the world to see.We all do what we have to do,Snow,even kings."

An armoured fight ensues,Mance hands Jon's arse to him.Mance says,"If I had me a dagger,you'd be less an eye by now." Well it turns out he did have a dagger,but didn't use it.

I think a lot of the ferocity Mance but into that bout was heartfelt,but not to the point of killing Jon.

But this is not the only noteworthy event in this chapter.In Mance's presence Jon receives and reads a letter from Ramsay Bolton.It summons all lord leal to Roose to Barrowtown...to celebrate his son's marriage to Arya Stark.

Athough Mance can see Jon is visibly shocked by the letter,he is not moved enough to break his vows and head south,or even to reply."Stiff-necked" indeed.

We next encounter the final meeting between the two in ADWD in Mel's POV .Here it's revealed that Mance is alive,Rattleshirt is dead and the former has been glamored by Mel to appear as the latter.She proposes that Mance rescues "Arya" whom she has seen in her flames.

"Me save her you mean?The Lord o' Bones?"He laughed."No one ever trusted Rattleshirt but fools.Snow's not that"-Another clue to the relationship,Mance likes and respects Jon,but no real trust.

Mel departs to show the three dead rangers to Jon,returns with him,and reveals the glamor.

But not before a last dialogue between Jon and RS,-"Are we talking about betrayals?What was the name of that wildling wife of yours,Snow?Ygritte,wasn't it?"

Ouch.But as the glamor is revealed,Jon's eyes grow wide as he recognizes Mance.

"Lord Snow",Mance did not smile.

What no hugs?Well,hardly.

Mel-"Our false king has a prickly manner,but he will not betray you.We hold his son,remember?And he owes you his very life"This confirms that Jon petitioned for Mance's life but that Mel saved it rather than Stannis.

So,as the OP asked does Mance want revenge?No,he knows Jon's significance.And no throwing his hat in with the Boltons.No,no ,no.FanTasy I'm shocked!I think Mance wrote the Pink Letter to rattle Jon into coming south,where he belongs,in Winterfell as the only Stark he knows is alive.

And to let the wildlings know their king is alive,and in trouble.

[Tagganaro]

I agree. But respect might not stop Mance from killing Jon if this is in his (Mance's) interest. I guess to become and stay king beyond the wall you must be capable of being ruthless in dealing with people who block your goals.

We don't know what Mance wants now that he is south of the Wall. He lost his wife, his son is a hostage, he lost his kingship.

Somehow I don't think he will settle for a farm in the Gift or settle for a wandering life as a bard.

But the question is: what are Mance's goals? I suspect (though I'm far from sure) that kingship was just the means, not the goal itself. He gathered all the people to fight against the Others. To gather them he needed to be respected, he needed to be their king. Did he enjoy being king? Certainy he does (and in a way, Jon does enjoy being LC - because he has the means to do what he thinks is right. If someone else would have been elected, Jon may still have friends, but he would feel miserable anyway if that LC doesn't do the right/necessary things)

I think Mance's main goal is to keep his people alive. At this point Jon is his best chance, and he knows it.

LIke I said, part of the reason why I love Mance is he's unpredictable- tough to really tell what he wants in any given situation. I like the reasoning in both these posts, I tend to agree with Arya that Mance just wanted safety for his people, and now he's content to focus on applying his serious ass-kicking talents to the situation with the Others. That being said, I could still see Fantasy's point here, he might be looking for revenge on Stannis/Mel and looking to get his "son" free from being a hostage which Mel so callously reminded of him right before sending him off.

Finally, there's the additional wrinkle of Mel claiming some kind of power over him because of the ruby she used to glamour him. I guess he's not wearing it in WF as Bael the Bard, but Mel seems to think she has some kind of control over him (either magical or practical) and seems like she would be the one to send him on his task to WF. And it doesn't seem like Mance is set on betraying Jon/Stannis/Mel at all from his actions as Bael the Bard- Him and his spear wives are killing off Bolton's men to create discord, one of them reacts violently in a loyal way to the Starks when Theon tries to repeat the Stark words, and the spear wives at least are intent on saving "Arya" (although I still have to question if Mance knows that "Arya" is a fake considering he's seen the real Arya before).

So, I don't know. Very tough to tell what Mance wants.

[Naathi Prince]

nice usage of the red lettering. It would appear to me that the language usage corresponds, but WHY did Mance write it?

[FanTasy]

nice usage of the red lettering. It would appear to me that the language usage corresponds, but WHY did Mance write it?

To lure? To set a trap?

There was a theory about that it is a coded letter.

[Ragnorak]

We know Mance wants to reenact the tale of Bael the Bard, but we don't know how much of his being in Winterfell is his own doing or Mel's. We do know that Mance hand picked all the spearwives and that they know his plan.

Rowan pulled Theon away from the northmen praying before the tree, to a secluded spot back by the barracks wall, beside a pool of warm mud that stank of rotten eggs. Even the mud was icing up about the edges, Theon saw. “Winter is coming ...”

Rowan gave him a hard look. “You have no right to mouth Lord Eddard’s words. Not you. Not ever. After what you did—”

That's some pretty intense Stark loyalty to show and doesn't make much sense in his hand picked assistants if Mance hates Jon. Also the Bael the Bard tale is a parable about how the Wildlings and Starks are one people. In the story if Bael (Mance) and his son the Bastard of Winterfell (Jon) fight, they both die and the Boltons win. So if Mance really is reenacting the story of Bael by fighting the Boltons he seems to be very familiar with the lesson of the parable.

[Tattered Prince Pumpkinn]

I personally think Mance already sees Jon as a man of great strength and wisdom. The man to be followed.

[Booknerd2]

Always thought that Jon saving his son and having the cajones to stand up to him, deceive him, etc. did gain his grudging respect, and may help Jon out in one of his many tight spots down the road.

Its going to pay if forward for Jon.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Someone had to tell him. Does Mel know the truth?

Yeah she knows I remember thatt.