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A + J = T


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#1 Men in their cups say...

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:25 PM

I'm sure this topic has been discussed extensively but I didn't see anywhere else appropriate to weigh in on this. I'm not sure how or when it happened but I fully subscribe to this theory for a few reasons:

One of the things I love about this series is that even though there are thousands of pages, every single word in the book seems to be extremely deliberate. Every thought is relevant in not only describing the world the story takes place in but also in relating to some part of the action of the story itself. SO I don't think that pointing out Aerys' attraction to Joanna is there just as an added little incentive for Tywin to be ambiguous in his loyalty to Aerys. He already had plenty of political and personal reasons for acting as he did in ending Robert's Rebellion. I think that there was some hanky panky there....

Whether or not Tywin is aware of what happened is almost a more interesting question than who Tyrion's biological father was. There are a few possibilities:

It is true. Tywin knows or at leasts suspects. Explains his hatred for Tyrion, refusal to name him heir to Casterly Rock, etc. very straightforwardly.

It is true. Tywin is unaware. A more interesting choice. Really drives home his bias against physical deformity.

It is not true. BUT Tywin assumes it is true. I think this would be cool way to go with the story but it doesn't really add much in terms of plot contrivances, the whole point of this I think is that Tyrion ends up with Dragon Blood.

and then it could just not be true in which case Aerys always just had a creepy infatuation with Joanna and Tywin was helpless to act on it against his liege lord causing the wound to fester until Tywin's rage is unleashed at the sack of KL

Another reason I think it's true is that I just started rereading book 1 and the first real physical description we get of Tyrion comes from Jon's first chapter and after pointing out that hes short and ugly compared to Cersei and Jamie it ends like this:

One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white.

Blonde hair is consistent through the Lannister line but that platinum blonde color only really happens in Lys and among the Targs. It seems unlikely that cousins Tywin and Joanna would both somehow be carriers of this gene.

Also don't we already know a certain character who's eyes appear black at first but on closer inspection are really a deep dark purple.......?


also Tyrion had a Morbid fascination with dragons

also didn't Aerys have another particularly bookish offspring....?

also Tyrion has TSI

Edited by Men in their cups say..., 18 October 2012 - 04:47 PM.


#2 Mammothsbane

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:42 PM

Well, I'll preface this response by saying that I HATE every "X is secretly a Targaryen" theories.

Personally, I hate the idea of Tyrion being Aerys' son because it would undermine the rivalry between Tywin and Tyrion. The entire backbone of their relationship is that he possesses all the qualities of his father yet is a complete failure to him. The idea that "Tyrion is Tywin's son" is what makes the resentment that much more interesting. Tywin considers him a shame on House Lannister for his personality, yet it is that personality that makes Tyrion just like him. He is cunning, politically intelligent, and (up until the end of SoS) has tremendous love for his family.

There also isn't much evidence. The fact that he has "blonde hair that seemed white" is kind of a non-factor IMO. Aurane Waters has the same kind of hair and he isn't a Targeryen (so I hope). I dislike this theory more than I dislike the theory that Jaime and Cersei are secret Targs... and I HATE THAT THEORY

#3 Men in their cups say...

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:57 PM

The Dragon must have three heads....

#4 Spearsister

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:18 PM

I do recall Tywin telling Tyrion "you are no son of mine" after he shoots him with the crossbow. I assumed it was just to hurt him and drive home the fact that he never loved or wanted him as his son, but after reading the bit about Aerys lusting after Joanna... well. He just may have been teliing the truth, and it definitely explains why Tywin wouldn't allow him to inherit Casterly Rock. The bit about him having white-blonde hair makes it seem even more likely (I hadn't caught that in the books, glad you posted it).
I absolutely love this theory -- partly because it makes sense, and partly because if we get to see Tyrion riding a dragon I think I may vomit rainbows.

#5 Men in their cups say...

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:00 PM

Tyrion to Jon: When I was your age I used to dream of having a dragon of my own

the text doesn't specify one way or another that these were merely daydreams


And just for fun, on the same page: Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."



@Mammothsbane So you disagree with R + L = J too? Who are your picks for three heads of the dragon?

I've always been a little curious that the three heads thing is entirely unique to targaryen heraldry. AA, one person. PwP one person.

#6 Mammothsbane

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:08 PM

@Mammothsbane So you disagree with R + L = J too? Who are your picks for three heads of the dragon?

I've always been a little curious that the three heads thing is entirely unique to targaryen heraldry. AA, one person. PwP one person.


No, I think Jon is Lyanna/Rhaegar's son, but I didn't realize it until I came to the forums and saw the evidence that I missed when I read it (I only started reading the books after the second season of Game of Thrones on HBO to hold me over.. then I read all 5 books in 3 months /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />). Truth be told, I don't think a lot of people outside these forums know about the R+L=J theory.. I know it hasn't been hinted at all in the show.

I just don't think there is much supporting evidence for this theory. Yeah, his hair is "very light blonde," but I don't think that indicates some secret heritage. I think having Tyrion be the bastard offspring of Aerys would cheapen his relationship with Tywin to the point where I would feel a little slighted. The relationship between the two is so powerful because they are bound in blood (and truthfully, it is only in this capacity I have any remorse for Tyrion as a character. I personally don't like him). Tyrion is Tywin's son, and knowing this is what makes Tywin despise him so much more. He is a repulsive monster who is a public embarrassment and killed the only thing Tywin ever loved (his wife). Tyrion, however, most closely resembles his father in his political maneuverability and cleverness. He is everything Jaime (Tywin's golden boy) is not, and it's something he resents very powerfully.

For the record, I don't think there will be any dragon riding. I don't think the people of Westeros are going to come to some grand alliance headed by the three long lost Targaryen children and it'll be all sunshine and rainbows. However, gun to my head, I'd say the three are Jon, Daenerys, and Aegon.

I also find it amusing that everyone likes to make up secret Targaryen theories, however the one person (Aegon) that has been explicitly stated to be a secret Targaryen is met with nothing but contempt and theories disproving his actual heritage. Not just you OP, just in general.

Also, Azor Ahai is the name of the hero. Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised are the same person. The "Prince that was Promised" is a title of Azor Ahai. They are the same entity.

#7 Lord Liam DarkStark

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:15 PM

My ideas for the A+J=T are that tyrion used to pretend he was a lost targaryen prince. Dragon dreams. And what we know of the affair between joanna and aerys. They grew up together. Aerys used to be quite charming. Who knows of the love they harbored. I think tyrion is one of the heads he killed his mother. Jon killed his mother. And dany killed her mother. I don't think their are coincedences in the stories. Grrm is the one true god of westeros.

Edited by Lord Liam DarkStark, 10 October 2012 - 08:15 PM.


#8 Ther Thapphireth

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:21 PM

Well, I'll preface this response by saying that I HATE every "X is secretly a Targaryen" theories.

Personally, I hate the idea of Tyrion being Aerys' son because it would undermine the rivalry between Tywin and Tyrion. The entire backbone of their relationship is that he possesses all the qualities of his father yet is a complete failure to him. The idea that "Tyrion is Tywin's son" is what makes the resentment that much more interesting. Tywin considers him a shame on House Lannister for his personality, yet it is that personality that makes Tyrion just like him. He is cunning, politically intelligent, and (up until the end of SoS) has tremendous love for his family.

There also isn't much evidence. The fact that he has "blonde hair that seemed white" is kind of a non-factor IMO. Aurane Waters has the same kind of hair and he isn't a Targeryen (so I hope). I dislike this theory more than I dislike the theory that Jaime and Cersei are secret Targs... and I HATE THAT THEORY


/agree.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':agree:' /> It's fine having a few people end up being not who they seem, like Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's, but at a certain point it's going to get ridiculous. It's just like being brought back from the dead (Cat, Gregor, Beric) Once we get too many, people staying dead or being who they say they are will be the minority not the majority, and that would be foolish in my opinion.

#9 Men in their cups say...

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:54 PM

@Mammothsbane I see where you're coming from, for me though Tyrion's and Tywin's relationship dynamic isn't realllllly changed all that much. It basically just substitutes 'bastard' for 'dwarf' as Tyrion's big flaw in Tywin's eyes. Tywin still raised him as his own, and raised him to be the most like him. I think this humanizes Tywin a lot as well not only because he would have raised Tyrion anyway but also because hating Tyrion solely for his dwarfishness seems very closed-minded and bigoted, I like to think of Tywin as more stern and pragmatic, I just think the idea adds a ton of depth to Tywin without really changing the dynamic you're talking about. It gives him a much more 'acceptable' reason to hate Tyrion, making him more of an antihero rather than a straight up villain, which is definitely the way GRRM likes to lean....

And similarly, yet somehow completely the opposite, Tywin doesn't necessarily have to know the truth....
but I like the "You are no son of mine" reference as a counterpoint to this....

#10 Men in their cups say...

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:57 PM

total sidebar: the AA/PWP as two different people is just a theory I read on here and kind of liked...but thats a different thread entirely so forget you read this....

#11 Apple Martini

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:00 PM

I don't think Tyrion is anyone's son but Tywin's.

And I'm also not fully convinced that three heads of the dragon refers to three separate people.

#12 Jolene Brown

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:12 PM

If Tywin thought Tyrion wasn't his son, Tyrion would be dead. It's as simple as that. Any evidence that relies on a hint from Tywin like "you are no son of mine" (which basically, if I remember correctly, is similar to what he said when he disowned Jaime after Jaime refused to leave the Kingsguard - i.e., metaphorical, not literal) is insane. He would have had him drowned in a well the moment Joanna died.

Edited by Jolene Brown, 10 October 2012 - 09:13 PM.


#13 Men in their cups say...

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:21 PM

What if Tywin suspected but could never confirm it. Would he still drown the child?

#14 Mammothsbane

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:22 PM

@Mammothsbane I see where you're coming from, for me though Tyrion's and Tywin's relationship dynamic isn't realllllly changed all that much. It basically just substitutes 'bastard' for 'dwarf' as Tyrion's big flaw in Tywin's eyes. Tywin still raised him as his own, and raised him to be the most like him. I think this humanizes Tywin a lot as well not only because he would have raised Tyrion anyway but also because hating Tyrion solely for his dwarfishness seems very closed-minded and bigoted, I like to think of Tywin as more stern and pragmatic, I just think the idea adds a ton of depth to Tywin without really changing the dynamic you're talking about. It gives him a much more 'acceptable' reason to hate Tyrion, making him more of an antihero rather than a straight up villain, which is definitely the way GRRM likes to lean....

And similarly, yet somehow completely the opposite, Tywin doesn't necessarily have to know the truth....
but I like the "You are no son of mine" reference as a counterpoint to this....


So you're suggesting, given all the characterization we've received about Tywin Lannister, the same man who ordered the brutal murders of Aerys and Rhaegar's natural children and brought about the extinction of TWO houses under his command, decided to raise the bastard, dwarf son of his strongly despised deceased king? This just doesn't make sense to me. If he was not Tywin's natural son, he'd have left him to die somewhere in the wilderness.

The thing is that Tywin is stern and pragmatic, yet he blames Tyrion for the death of Joanna. He will never forgive him for that, plain and simple. Being a dwarf and his frequent whoring shame his house, but ultimately, I think he dislikes Tyrion because Joanna died birthing him.

Honestly, Tywin is my favorite Lannister. He is Machiavellian in almost every aspect. Stern and ruthless to his enemies, yet he says that "when a man kneels, you must help him to his feet or no one else will kneel before you." He is a nationalist and believes in the respect of his house.

#15 Men in their cups say...

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:29 PM

Tywin remembers Joanna in her bed of blood. Let them grow up as brothers. Promise me Ty.

#16 Jolene Brown

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:29 PM

What if Tywin suspected but could never confirm it. Would he still drown the child?


Stannis has started a war that has ripped the kingdom apart and killed tons and tons of people over a suspicion he can't confirm. I don't think they're huge on "evidence" in Westeros. If he suspected that would be confirmation enough for him.

#17 Scratch Face

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:30 PM

totally agree with Freerider, there is no way Tywin would allow a bastard child by Aerys to live under his roof.
The A + J = T theory is just speculation based on nothing but circumstnatial evidence, there is overwhelming evidence to suggest that Tyrion is the true biological child of Tywin.

#18 Men in their cups say...

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:50 PM

There's a lot of evidence that suggests its true. And like I said earlier whether Tywin was aware, only suspected, or was oblivious doesn't change anything except your view of Tywin. I personally think that a Tywin who would raise Aerys' child is a much more complex and interesting character. There's also the fact that people seem to really like having potential heirs/hostages/whatnot in their care as wads. E.g. Stannis takes Edric Storm under his wing sort of just in case, Mel's suggestion of what to do with him comes afterwards...

But please, overwhelm me.....

#19 Jolene Brown

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:51 PM

A Tywin who would raise Aerys' child is a completely different character, not the one from the books. It's just completely and 100% out of character. He would not do it.

#20 Mammothsbane

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:02 PM

There's a lot of evidence that suggests its true. And like I said earlier whether Tywin was aware, only suspected, or was oblivious doesn't change anything except your view of Tywin. I personally think that a Tywin who would raise Aerys' child is a much more complex and interesting character. There's also the fact that people seem to really like having potential heirs/hostages/whatnot in their care as wads. E.g. Stannis takes Edric Storm under his wing sort of just in case, Mel's suggestion of what to do with him comes afterwards...

But please, overwhelm me.....


Where is the evidence that suggests this is true? All I've seen is that his "hair is so blonde it appeared white" and something he said moments before he died taken completely out of context.

Jolene Brown said it: Twyin would not raise the child if he suspected he was not his own. Tyrion is a dwarf, whoremongering disgrace, but he is a Lannister. He started a war for him in the Riverlands because he is one of them. The honor of the house was at stake. Why would someone borderline obsessed with the honor and respect of his family name "adopt" a dwarf, bastard son of a madman and then pass him off as his own? It genuinely makes no sense. It is not the Tywin we know. He would not do it.

You think a Tywin that would raise a bastard son of Aerys is a better character. I think it serves to undermine literally everything we've read about him in the last five books.

Edited by Mammothsbane, 10 October 2012 - 10:03 PM.