A + J = T

[brut]

Tywin is/was the major Lord who would never put his House's interest behind personal feelings. We really see in a lot of actions, House Reyne and Tywin's dialogue with Jamie in aGoT are really apotheoses of Tywin's mentality. So, in the situation where he 1. knew or 2 suspected that Tyrion is not his child, what would he do likely? Kill the suckling babe and by doing so inadvertently admit that he is not that much of a fearsome Lord, or swallow the pride and raise the babe as his own? 100 bucks say the latter.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Kill the suckling babe and by doing so inadvertently admit that he is not that much of a fearsome Lord, or swallow the pride and raise the babe as his own? 100 bucks say the latter.

Tyrion mentions how he could also have been killed at birth because of his deformity (and in other circumstance would have). So I wouldn't think Tywin would admit anything by doing so - even if many parents who have enough money to feed a "useless" mouth keep it, he would hardly do something unprecedented. He can even make a point of how he doesn't tolerate weakness and kill Tyrion without thereby losing his reputation as a "fearsome lord".

[bardstark]

My ideas for the A+J=T are that tyrion used to pretend he was a lost targaryen prince. Dragon dreams. And what we know of the affair between joanna and aerys. They grew up together. Aerys used to be quite charming. Who knows of the love they harbored. I think tyrion is one of the heads he killed his mother. Jon killed his mother. And dany killed her mother. I don't think their are coincedences in the stories. Grrm is the one true god of westeros.

Brilliant.

But what about Aunt Genna saying that Tyrion is Tywin's true son. Is she simply wrong?

Tywin also disowns Jaime, upon his return to KL.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

They aren't real targ's they are stormchildren targaryens are very different. The storm children may have miniscule amounts of dragon blood. But I think they are just like brown ben plumm. The dragon's may like them but they wouldn't except them as riders. I don't think the heads have to be targ's. But guessing that they do. My money is on dany jon and tyrion their stories parallel each other an insane amount. If I excluded one of them I would nominate aegon. If he is a blackfyre he still has more dragon blood than those annoying baratheons. And if he is a fake they can burn him alive. Tyrion's parentage would be the more likely red herring out of jon and him. But I don't think its enought to discard the possibility of him being one of these secret targ's. There are far too many ideas for secret targaryens but I think keeping it at jon and tyrion isn't excessive.

[Daemrion]

My biggest problem with this theory is that presumably, Joanna would be at Casterly Rock raising Jaime and Cersei, and Aerys is in Kings Landing.

Hard to see how Aerys could teleport accross the realm to impregnate Joanna.

[Jem]

My biggest problem with this theory is that presumably, Joanna would be at Casterly Rock raising Jaime and Cersei, and Aerys is in Kings Landing.

Hard to see how Aerys could teleport accross the realm to impregnate Joanna.

Joanna was once a lady-in-waiting to Rhaella, so it could have happened then. Also, I imagine that Joanna would want to visit Tywin in KL from time to time. To paraphrase GRRM, I don't think Joanna was nailed to the floor of Casterly Rock the whole time.

[corbon]

But what about Aunt Genna saying that Tyrion is Tywin's true son. Is she simply wrong?

How does she know?

Was she with Joanna the whole time?

Or is she actually talking about Tyrion's character, perhaps created by nurture, which fits Tywin much better than Jaime's?

Honestly, how can anyone point to this statemnt and think it is anything more than an opinion about character?

[corbon]

Joanna was once a lady-in-waiting to Rhaella, so it could have happened then. Also, I imagine that Joanna would want to visit Tywin in KL from time to time. To paraphrase GRRM, I don't think Joanna was nailed to the floor of Casterly Rock the whole time.

Nor was Aerys nailed to KL before Duskendale.

[Jem]

Nor was Aerys nailed to KL before Duskendale.

Very true. No need for Aeyrs to 'teleport' in; a simple horse would be enough to get him there.

[bent branch]

I think people tend to forget this conversation between Tywin and Tyrion in Tyrion I ASOS:

"The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It's past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir."

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. "Why?" he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

Tywin states flat out that he does not believe Tyrion is his. Tywin's attitude towards Tyrion is not based simply on the fact that he is a dwarf or that he killed his beloved Joanna. In fact, notice that Tywin calls Joanna "your mother" rather than "my wife". By doing this Tywin is emotionally distancing himself from Joanna. When I read this passage I realized that Tywin firmly believed that Tyrion was not his son. The next question I had to ask myself was why.

I am inclined to believe that Tywin did not know that Tyrion was not his from the beginning. I think when Aerys brought Jaime into the Kingsguard, he crowed to Tywin about how he stole his son and left Tywin with his bastard for an heir. Tywin would not only see this as a total loss to Aerys, he would be humiliated if any of this got out. This is why I think he resigned as hand as soon as he could. I also think this is why he was so ruthless when it came to killing Aerys' heirs. I think he wanted to hurt Aerys in the same way Aerys hurt him. (Yes, I know Aerys was already dead, but revenge is seldom rational.)

Tywin believing Tyrion was not his son does not necessarily mean that Tyrion is not his son. However, as many people have pointed out there is a lot of evidence in the text to suggest that Tyrion's father was Aerys. I had noticed this evidence, but did not really think much about it until I read this passage. I then thought that maybe there was something to it. The conversation between Jaime and Genna does not actually support or refute Tyrion being Aerys'. The only thing that conversation confirms is that Tywin did believe that Tyrion was not his (Tywin's reaction was entirely overblown unless he was thought that Genna was saying Aerys' bastard was the child most like him.) The strongest bit of evidence against Tyrion being a Targaryen bastard is Moqorro's vision. Moqorro tells Tyrion that he sees dragons AND Tyrion. This suggests that suggests that Tyrion is a non-Targ amongst Targs. However, I think there is 0% chance that we make it to the end of the series without Tyrion or Aegon or both being revealed as Targaryens. There has been far too much foreshadowing on both of them for both of them to be not Targ. I think GRRM with pull the trigger with at least one. I know this will be distressing to some people, but I think it is inevitable.

[all_Freys_must_die]

I think people tend to forget this conversation between Tywin and Tyrion in Tyrion I ASOS:

Tywin states flat out that he does not believe Tyrion is his. Tywin's attitude towards Tyrion is not based simply on the fact that he is a dwarf or that he killed his beloved Joanna. In fact, notice that Tywin calls Joanna "your mother" rather than "my wife". By doing this Tywin is emotionally distancing himself from Joanna. When I read this passage I realized that Tywin firmly believed that Tyrion was not his son. The next question I had to ask myself was why.

I am inclined to believe that Tywin did not know that Tyrion was not his from the beginning. I think when Aerys brought Jaime into the Kingsguard, he crowed to Tywin about how he stole his son and left Tywin with his bastard for an heir. Tywin would not only see this as a total loss to Aerys, he would be humiliated if any of this got out. This is why I think he resigned as hand as soon as he could. I also think this is why he was so ruthless when it came to killing Aerys' heirs. I think he wanted to hurt Aerys in the same way Aerys hurt him. (Yes, I know Aerys was already dead, but revenge is seldom rational.)

Tywin believing Tyrion was not his son does not necessarily mean that Tyrion is not his son. However, as many people have pointed out there is a lot of evidence in the text to suggest that Tyrion's father was Aerys. I had noticed this evidence, but did not really think much about it until I read this passage. I then thought that maybe there was something to it. The conversation between Jaime and Genna does not actually support or refute Tyrion being Aerys'. The only thing that conversation confirms is that Tywin did believe that Tyrion was not his (Tywin's reaction was entirely overblown unless he was thought that Genna was saying Aerys' bastard was the child most like him.) The strongest bit of evidence against Tyrion being a Targaryen bastard is Moqorro's vision. Moqorro tells Tyrion that he sees dragons AND Tyrion. This suggests that suggests that Tyrion is a non-Targ amongst Targs. However, I think there is 0% chance that we make it to the end of the series without Tyrion or Aegon or both being revealed as Targaryens. There has been far too much foreshadowing on both of them for both of them to be not Targ. I think GRRM with pull the trigger with at least one. I know this will be distressing to some people, but I think it is inevitable.

nice input. i am not 'sold' on Tyrion Targaryan, but i can see its quite possible. People who use the reasoning that - 'there is already 1 maybe 2 secret Targaryans out there if there are any more it's just stupid' are just a bit narrow minded. What, Aerys only knobbed his wife? He was a nutcase. He could have 100 bastards floating around out there and more than a few could be noble (they don't all have to have white hair by the way). Robert had 16 and his rule wasn't as long. The fact that he had a 'thing' for Joanna, Tywin hated his guts and there is a few wayward clues muddling Tyrion's lineage leaves it open to GRRM to make it known either way.

That Moquorro section is the best evidence against tho i think.....

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I am inclined to believe that Tywin did not know that Tyrion was not his from the beginning. I think when Aerys brought Jaime into the Kingsguard, he crowed to Tywin about how he stole his son and left Tywin with his bastard for an heir.

At first glance, I really like this hypothesis. We need to examine some timing details to see if it could work. Jaime remembers that Cersei pulled some strings to get Jaime named to the Kingsguard. Tywin and Cersei were in KL at the time. Jaime had been fighting in the Kingswood and stopped by KL on the way back to Casterly Rock. The raven was sent to Casterly Rock. Did Tywin stay at KL the whole time? When did he resign and return to CR?

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I think that's why the timing lines are never precise. So hat george can leave it open. The evidence makes the parentage question capable of going either way

[Bluesnow]

If Tywin thought Tyrion wasn't his son, Tyrion would be dead. It's as simple as that. Any evidence that relies on a hint from Tywin like "you are no son of mine" (which basically, if I remember correctly, is similar to what he said when he disowned Jaime after Jaime refused to leave the Kingsguard - i.e., metaphorical, not literal) is insane. He would have had him drowned in a well the moment Joanna died.

If Tywin has even an inkling that Tyrion was not his son then there is not a hope in seven hells that he would let Tyrion parade around with the Lannister name. End of.

I don't agree...

Tywin was a proud man... to kill Tyrion would mean admitting to the realm that another man had his way with his wife. I'd like to think that instead he bided his time and eventually planned the destruction of the Targ dynasty in revenge.

[theREALjonsnow]

Hello everybody this is my first post. As stated previosly in this topic i belive A+J=T as he is one of the head of the three headed dragon prophecy along with Dany and Jon. all three had mothers who died while giving birth to them? a conisdence i think not

[Knight of the Teabags]

I don't agree...

Tywin was a proud man... to kill Tyrion would mean admitting to the realm that another man had his way with his wife.

Tywin wouldn't have to admit anything to the realm - think about it he's a great lord with considerable means. If he ever wanted to kill Tyrion (or anybody else in his household for that matter) all he needs to do is a few quiet words with some of his guards, Tyrion would 'disappear' and Tywin could quite easily claim his dwarf son died of the plague or had a fatal accident. The realm would most likely believe him too, after all Tyrion was known for not being a healthy child and lots of children die young in Westeros even noble children.

If Tywin had the slightest sniff the Imp wasn't his, he'd definitely make sure Tyrion quietly 'disappeared'. The man may have been proud, but what we saw in the books Tywin certainly doesn't let his pride get in the way with how he acts behind closed doors.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Tywin wouldn't send him off to be Hand of the King if he didn't believe Tyrion was his. Tyrion could be Aerys' bastard, but Twyin never knew. I prefer to think GRRM has thrown out a bunch of red herrings on this one, not least because I don't want 2 mystery Targs.

Anyway why not Stannis as one head of the dragon? The Baratheons have Targ blood after all. Or Gendry. Or Mya. Heck thanks to Bob's over active loins we can rustle up enough dragon blood to be able to assassinate Dany and leave Jon dead and still have 3 riders.

SNIP...

See Maester Aemon's ravings on his deathbed in AFFC. Yes he says Stannis has a drop of dragon's blood in his line, but not enough to be a head of the dragon.

Brilliant.

But what about Aunt Genna saying that Tyrion is Tywin's true son. Is she simply wrong?

Tywin also disowns Jaime, upon his return to KL.

IDK how you quoted that post but failed to read the part of the thread where we covered that...

Oh well see below it is re-discussed:

How does she know?

Was she with Joanna the whole time?

Or is she actually talking about Tyrion's character, perhaps created by nurture, which fits Tywin much better than Jaime's?

Honestly, how can anyone point to this statemnt and think it is anything more than an opinion about character?

:agree: THANK YOU! Exactly what i had said upthread, in what way is that evidence. I must've missed the passage where Genna details a DNA test that her maester has been working on.

Very true. No need for Aeyrs to 'teleport' in; a simple horse would be enough to get him there.

LMAO! :cool4:

Hello everybody this is my first post. As stated previosly in this topic i belive A+J=T as he is one of the head of the three headed dragon prophecy along with Dany and Jon. all three had mothers who died while giving birth to them? a conisdence i think not

WELCOME! :cheers:

Tywin wouldn't have to admit anything to the realm - think about it he's a great lord with considerable means. If he ever wanted to kill Tyrion (or anybody else in his household for that matter) all he needs to do is a few quiet words with some of his guards, Tyrion would 'disappear' and Tywin could quite easily claim his dwarf son died of the plague or had a fatal accident. The realm would most likely believe him too, after all Tyrion was known for not being a healthy child and lots of children die young in Westeros even noble children.

If Tywin had the slightest sniff the Imp wasn't his, he'd definitely make sure Tyrion quietly 'disappeared'. The man may have been proud, but what we saw in the books Tywin certainly doesn't let his pride get in the way with how he acts behind closed doors.

You have a point, but we have seen that many lords take the kinslaying curse pretty seriously, and with Genna being his cousin it would be kinslaying either way. "there is no man as acursed as the kinslayer!" I know Tywin doesn't seem superstitious but it is obviously a big deal in westeros. I mean even Victarion, a ruthless reaver will not violate it to kill the man he hates most in the world...

[Knight of the Teabags]

You have a point, but we have seen that many lords take the kinslaying curse pretty seriously, and with Genna being his cousin it would be kinslaying either way. "there is no man as acursed as the kinslayer!" I know Tywin doesn't seem superstitious but it is obviously a big deal in westeros. I mean even Victarion, a ruthless reaver will not violate it to kill the man he hates most in the world...

Ah, yes but would Tywin Lannister really consider having underlings dispose of a Targaryen cuckoo who inconveniently happens to be distantly related kinslaying at all?

Because if you look at Tywin's approach to the other big deal of 'cursed by old gods & new' in Westerosi tradition that of breach of guest-right, he clearly seems to believe the curse doesn't affect someone who arranges someone else to actually do the dirty deed. The Red Wedding of course is all the fault of those vile Freys... nothing to do with Tywin Lannister! Tywin approaches honor with all the moral scruples of a particularly slimy criminal defence lawyer towards the law i.e. he never directly breaks the letter of the law but he's always looking for loop-holes which he can use to get around it and achieve the end he desires.

The other thing is where does kin end for kinslaying because once you're getting into the territory of second-cousins-once-removed and the like you're getting into a situation where very few houses can make war on each other without risking the curse of kinslaying. The example of Lord Karstark threatening Robb with kinslaying at his execution shows that there is a fair debate within Westerosi society where the boundary of kin actually lies.

I think a man as morally acrobatic as Tywin Lannister is more than capable of disposing of any hypothetical Targaryen cuckoo in his nest in a manner that both keeps his own hands clean and satisfies what little conscience he's got that he hasn't committed kinslaying as long as he knows about it. There's no way Tywin Lannister would knowingly allow such a child to survive especially if that child is Tyrion.

Tywin certainly seems to have believed Tyrion to be his son, certainly to the degree that Tywin cared enough to see Tyrion as a means to carry on the Lannister legacy. I mean what is the point of marrying Sansa to Tyrion if Tywin has a suspicion that Tyrion is not his son? Indeed if he believes Tyrion to be Aerys' bastard why was Tywin so angry to see Tyrion marry a nobody like Tysha?

Tywin's stern words to Tyrion say it all 'You're a Lannister, you're worth more.'

[Men in their cups say...]

Bent Branch!! Thanks for the awesome quote! Perfectly relevant, I knew that there was something like that in the books that made this theory seem very likely to me.

I'm honestly pretty surprised at the amount of hate this theory is getting. I assumed that people on these forums were pretty into theories like these haha!

Thanks to everyone on both sides of the conversation for bringing up interesting points!

Except for all you fools who are just hating on the theory without actually reading whats been said. You guys suck. This isn't an online shouting match.

I want to point out that even if AJT proves to be the case, its verrrrry unlikely that Genna Lannister would know about it. I think it would definitely make her comment more scathing to Tywin. I wasn't sure initially but Bent branch's quote clears up the awareness issue pretty nicely for me.

Tywin wishes he could prove that Aerys cuckholded him. But is unwilling to kill Joanna's child without proof. Maybe he himself would kill a child just for the crime of being a dwarf but it would completely tarnish the memory of his wife to do so. Everyone in Casterly Rock knew that she had died in childbirth.

I also really love the sibling reunion coming up. Tyrion has a way of gravitating towards his kin. His interactions with Jon Snow at the feast at Winterfell and the journey to the wall were some of my favorite moments in both the books and the tv series. His meeting with Dany in Mereen will be equally amazing I hope.

Also I just want to say that I agree with a lot of what people are saying about Blood of the Dragon. The fact that Tyrion would be a bastard means way less to me than the fact that he'd have half Dragon Blood, unlike the baratheons who have only a drop. Ben Plumm's interactions with Dany's Dragon are what do it for me.

As much as we would all love to impose our will on this brilliant fictional universe I'm very much enjoying the ride GRRM has been taking us on. I won't have any hard feelings if the series surprises me. In fact I look forward to it. :cheers:

[DragonsHungry]

If Tyrion is a secret Targ and Dragon Rider, I'll burn my books in disgust. That would completely ruin the character and be jumping the shark.