Is it formulaic/cheesy that Ned shows up to toj at the same time that Lyanna is giving birth?

[sarah.jenice]

We don't know who assisted Lyanna in the TOJ. I'm sure she had someone there to help so my question is this- if there was a midwife/maester there, he or she surely knew who the baby was. How were they kept quiet about it?

It could have been Wylla. Maybe this is where Ned decided she would be Jon's "mother." They go back to Starfall together to return Dawn. Ned spends some time with Ashara. Jon is nursed by Wylla so he becomes Edric "Ned" Dayne's milk brother.

Also, I don't think the Kingsguard wanted to flee with Jon. They specifically say they won't flee like Ser Williem Darry.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out.

“The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

[Dr. Pepper]

We don't know who assisted Lyanna in the TOJ. I'm sure she had someone there to help so my question is this- if there was a midwife/maester there, he or she surely knew who the baby was. How were they kept quiet about it?

Decency, goodness of their heart, ignorance, uncaring about bloodright, swearing a vow, being paid. I think it probably had more to do with general decency than anything.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I think the likely reason for the fight was the disagreement over how Jon would be raised. The Kingsguard likely wanted him raised as the heir to the Iron Throne, a dangerous and lonely life in exile, see Viserys. While they rightly assumed that Ned would honor his sister's wishes and raise the boy quietly and safely in Winterfell, specifically as his own bastard son. Keeping Jon safe and apart fron the Game of Thrones was absolutely mutually exclusive with raising him in exile as heir to the Iron Throne. A fight was inevitable.

This doesn't seem likely. The fight started immediately, (well, after the talk and stuff) it's not as if they argued about how to raise Jon. Ned and his companions came there and both parties knew there would be a fight. They were immediately in a warriors position. But why? I just don't know and I still have to come across a good explanation.

[Jon Flowers]

They were protecting the heir to the throne from someone who was there to take him away. How is that not likely?

The parties involved knew each other and each other's likely motives and thus a lengthy debate would be unnecesary and extremely unrealistic.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

They were protecting the heir to the throne from someone who was there to take him away. How is that not likely?

The parties involved knew each other and each other's likely motives and thus a lengthy debate would be unnecesary and extremely unrealistic.

Take him away to safety, most likely. Take him away from Robert's wrath, who'd surely kill him. Then why fight each other to the death, when they have the same motives, namely keep Jon safe?

The parties knew each other, and each other's motives, but that's exactly the reason why I don't understand why the fight seemed so necessary. A lengthy debate wouldn't be necessary, since as you said, they knew each other's motives. They had a common motive.

[Ser Kneeler]

I'm re-reading chronologically from the very beginning. After reading Eddard's very first POV last night, I though the exact same thing, except....

Cheesy that she dies right when he shows up. Without design, it seems more Annakin Skywalker rescuing his mother and he's literally like ten minutes too late. I mean you can make the case that she died in childbirth, but that would also be a cheesy enormous coincidence. But I don't believe that the design is lacking. So here's the deal - it's a 7-3 swordfight. Ned and his men arrive to rescue Lyanna. Versus three knights sworn to protect... well presumably Lyanna. What about this scenario mandates that Lyanna must die? It's not a Sam Peckinpah movie. There are no machine guns, no crossfire. The KG would not have slain Lyanna without cause. Ned would not have slain Lyanna.

So what are the possible outcomes?

A) She heard clanging around. Went downstairs to see what was the fuss. Saw her brother swordfighting against her own guard. Rushed to protect him and got a sword through the kidney.

B] Only three fighters remain standing - Ned, Howland Reed, and Arthur Dayne. Dayne is about to get the jump on Ned, but at the last moment Howland Reed shoots a dart laced with frog toxin. However the crannogman's aim is slightly off and the dart hits Lyanna in the stomach. The distraction startles Arthur Dayne momentarily, giving Ned just enough time to decapitate him.

C) Lyanna died in childbirth. Or a few days later. Maybe it's not a cheesy coincidence. Maybe the birth was traumatic, so she sent a raven to KL, overnight express. Ned receives the raven and rushes to Dorne to see his sister one last time. She's sleeping with her newborn infant in a pool of blood, but holds out with her last remaining strength because, Tusken Raider scene in SW AOTC. How long does it take to gather six of your most trusted men in your entire army, and then ride to Dorne?

D) She isn't dead.

[Ygrain]

I'm re-reading chronologically from the very beginning. After reading Eddard's very first POV last night, I though the exact same thing, except....

Cheesy that she dies right when he shows up. Without design, it seems more Annakin Skywalker rescuing his mother and he's literally like ten minutes too late. I mean you can make the case that she died in childbirth, but that would also be a cheesy enormous coincidence. But I don't believe that the design is lacking. So here's the deal - it's a 7-3 swordfight. Ned and his men arrive to rescue Lyanna. Versus three knights sworn to protect... well presumably Lyanna. What about this scenario mandates that Lyanna must die? It's not a Sam Peckinpah movie. There are no machine guns, no crossfire. The KG would not have slain Lyanna without cause. Ned would not have slain Lyanna.

So what are the possible outcomes?

A) She heard clanging around. Went downstairs to see what was the fuss. Saw her brother swordfighting against her own guard. Rushed to protect him and got a sword through the kidney.

B] Only three fighters remain standing - Ned, Howland Reed, and Arthur Dayne. Dayne is about to get the jump on Ned, but at the last moment Howland Reed shoots a dart laced with frog toxin. However the crannogman's aim is slightly off and the dart hits Lyanna in the stomach. The distraction startles Arthur Dayne momentarily, giving Ned just enough time to decapitate him.

C) Lyanna died in childbirth. Or a few days later. Maybe it's not a cheesy coincidence. Maybe the birth was traumatic, so she sent a raven to KL, overnight express. Ned receives the raven and rushes to Dorne to see his sister one last time. She's sleeping with her newborn infant in a pool of blood, but holds out with her last remaining strength because, Tusken Raider scene in SW AOTC. How long does it take to gather six of your most trusted men in your entire army, and then ride to Dorne?

D) She isn't dead.

"Bed of blood" is several times and consistently used to refer to childbirth. Lyanna is also mentioned to be feverish. Childbirth + fever usually equals to childbed or puerperal fever, occuring within a few days since the delivery, and killing within another few, the whole period still falling under the „bed of blood“ both as a direct consequence of childbirth as well as bleeding due to the birthing injuries. And yes, Lyanna is very clearly dead, as Ned recollects holding her dead body.

GIven the timeline (Jon born within a month since the Sack, Ned apparently knew where to go looking, and received the news either in KL or at Storms‘ End. Who or how tipped him off is unclear but Lyanna would have had a motive to try to reach to him as early as after learning about Rhaegar’s death, as she could hardly expect help or protection from Aerys.

Take him away to safety, most likely. Take him away from Robert's wrath, who'd surely kill him. Then why fight each other to the death, when they have the same motives, namely keep Jon safe?

The parties knew each other, and each other's motives, but that's exactly the reason why I don't understand why the fight seemed so necessary. A lengthy debate wouldn't be necessary, since as you said, they knew each other's motives. They had a common motive.

At the moment when Ned arrives, the KG do not know his motives. Their motive is to keep Jon safe and fight for his birthright to the throne. Ned is on the side which has just murdered Rhaegar’s children and installed a new king. He is honour-bound to his new king to reveal the existence of another Targ heir, thus bringing Jon into mortal danger. The fact that he is willing to compromise his honour for the sake of those he loves is yet unknown, and he certainly wouldn’t be willing to push Jon’s claim against Robert. Their goals are not the same.

[HouseHarrison]

It would make for a dramatic and plot-significant scene. It may not be "realistic", but ASOIF is about the characters and story-telling. And frankly, it's a good story to have it work out like that.

[Draco_Dracul]

Take him away to safety, most likely. Take him away from Robert's wrath, who'd surely kill him. Then why fight each other to the death, when they have the same motives, namely keep Jon safe?

The parties knew each other, and each other's motives, but that's exactly the reason why I don't understand why the fight seemed so necessary. A lengthy debate wouldn't be necessary, since as you said, they knew each other's motives. They had a common motive.

But their methods of carrying them out are so different. The King's Guard would see Jon as either raised as a beggar king like his Uncle Viserys or still in secret with one of them as a father like his brother(?) (f)Aegon. Ned wants to raise him in the north with his cousins. This is an impasse, these are incompatable goals. The only way they could reach an agreement is if all 10 men were daft enough to think he could hide both his Jon and three famous Knights at Winterfell.

[Balerion06]

Simpler explanation: Lyanna either commits suicide out of shame or Ned kills her to end her suffering after the promise to keep Jon safe has been made.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Yeah. It's very cheesy. People won't admit that, of course, since we're fans of the series. There are other cheesy stuff, mostly how cartoony all chars from Essos are. Or Tyrion + Sansa.

But well, we don't know how exactly things happened at ToJ... So whatever. Maybe she died after or during the battle somehow. Wouldn't change much.

[Ygrain]

Simpler explanation: Lyanna either commits suicide out of shame or Ned kills her to end her suffering after the promise to keep Jon safe has been made.

You sure you read the same book? Or is this supposed to be a joke?

Yeah. It's very cheesy. People won't admit that, of course, since we're fans of the series. There are other cheesy stuff, mostly how cartoony all chars from Essos are. Or Tyrion + Sansa.

But well, we don't know how exactly things happened at ToJ... So whatever. Maybe she died after or during the battle somehow. Wouldn't change much.

She couldn't die during the battle if Ned was holding her hand at the moment of her death.

[Balerion06]

You sure you read the same book? Or is this supposed to be a joke?

It was only meant semi-seriosuly as a response to the idea that it would be absurdly convenient if Lyanna died the moment the Ned showed up..

But I could buy Ned euthanizing Lyanna if it's obvious she's not going to recover. Conversely, I can see Lyanna killing herself out of shame for all the death and destruction she brought to Westeros and her family after running off with a retarded emo harp player who hilariously thought he was a dragon.

[Ser Kneeler]

Yeah. It's very cheesy. People won't admit that, of course, since we're fans of the series.

Okay I get that. If it takes more than a week to get from KL to TOJ than I'd have to say Star Wars cheesy. If it only takes two or three days then less cheesy. I can forgive GRRM for cheesy. Especially if you have to read it twice to realize it's cheesy.

[Ahendrl]

Up to 10 days is very soon, that is very cheesy.

[Khal Rhaggat - Cart King]

He doesn't, necessarily.

Lyanna died of a fever. Puerperal fever, which was a major killer of birthing women before modern hygene, kills up to 10 days after birth.

So no not cheesy at all.

Doesn't she die in a "bed of blood"? That doesn't sound like a fever to me. I actually think she died from bleeding out from the birth and that it probably took a day or two. Not too cheesy, it might actually be a stretch that he took even that long to get there.

[Ygrain]

Doesn't she die in a "bed of blood"? That doesn't sound like a fever to me. I actually think she died from bleeding out from the birth and that it probably took a day or two. Not too cheesy, it might actually be a stretch that he took even that long to get there.

"Fever took her strength", and fever is a symptom of infection, not of bleeding. Bleeding would be there in any case, even after an uncomplicated birth, up till 4-6 weeks after the delivery (puerperium period). She would be bleeding moer after a complicated birth but in order to develop fever and eventually die of infection, it would take days.

[Khal Rhaggat - Cart King]

"Fever took her strength", and fever is a symptom of infection, not of bleeding. Bleeding would be there in any case, even after an uncomplicated birth, up till 4-6 weeks after the delivery (puerperium period). She would be bleeding moer after a complicated birth but in order to develop fever and eventually die of infection, it would take days.

Fair enough :)