Becoming No One: Rereading Arya II

[DrunkSister]

Things I noticed:

• Arya wanting to bury at least Yoren is similar to Catelyn insisting on burying the dead.
  
• She wonders how many it had taken to kill Yoren - still hung up about that 10:1 comparison from King's Landing?
  
• Kurtz(sp?) is buried under a mound of stones. They didn't dig a grave.
  
• Gendry and Arya are father and mother of the group. Reminds me of Peter and Wendy in a very sad way.
  
• Gendry is repeatedly described as stubborn and 'having a pained expression when he is thinking'. Is anybody else reminded of Terry Pratchett's description of heroes in 'Guards!Guards!'? :D
  
• Arya is thinking of herself as a water dancer, but can also be compared to CoTF. Since that is the first thing Bran will think when he sees Leaf, I think comparison is intended this early. Maybe we should take all the earth/life references in that manner.
  

Arya is often touted as "not being naive like Sansa" and that she sorts out her own escape and needs nobody's help, yet here we see her first not believing that Yoren can be killed, and secondly also being very upset since he was about to take her home, to Winterfell. Arya's disappointment and hopes here echo Sansa's in the same novels. Sansa hopes for Ser Dontos and she later scolds Littlefinger because he didn't take her home. Likewise here, Arya was dependent on Yoren to get as far north as she did. Hence I think the "myth" that Arya just freed herself and did everything herself can be debunked. While she can live awhile on her own, I doubt a diet of worms would have sustained her long. in reality. Both Arya and Sansa have to rely on others to a degree, with mixed results.

Amen!

[starkalways]

Something I picked on in this chapter is arya's treament of weasel. She is holding weasel, "Arya tugged at Weasel's matted hair, thinking it might be best to hack it off."

This always stuck out to me because it seems like something a mother would do. And then I remembered two other instances when characters associated with motherhood doing something similar.

One is Catelyn, "Catelyn looked at Bran in his sick bed and brushed his hair back off his forehead. It had grown very long, she realized. She would have to cut it soon." and Sansa, "She sat on the bed and smoothed his long, fine hair...(talks about how Sweetrobyn won't let anyone touch it after his mother died, but...'Alayne wound a lock around her finger...)"

My point is Arya says she doesn't want to get married or have children, and at her age it's not something a girl would really think about. But just from that one line I see the potential of Arya becoming a mother when comparing it to her mother and sister.

Many people mention Sansa holding riverrun, but I think Arya has great potential. She may need work on politics, but we have also seen the Riverlands need a good battle commander. Arya is learning it from her travels during the war and we see her instincts and stepping in to lead for her "pack". I think she can be a warrior princess and have a family as well, if it's what she wants.

[Maester Victor]

I really enjoy in this chapter the dog and wolf imagery while Arya imagines herself as a (Tully) fish. When I first read this chapter I was frustrated that she was so close to the Isle of Faces and not reaching it. Now on a reread I'm even more frustrated she couldn't warg a fish, visit the Isle, and find Jon's secrets out!

Edit: Omitted a mistaken word.

[Ragnorak]

Did Gendry get an offer to leave with the others? Did he stay because of Arya, because it was the right thing, or both? I suspect the pained look of his thinking is his understanding the reality of their situation and wrestling with his powerlessness to do the right thing.

I'm glad others mentioned the mother aspect of Arya and Weasel the No Longer Crying Girl. Arya is probably the reason she's no longer crying. I had noticed hints of that last chapter but she was also sending the girl away and more tentative in her protection there.

I also noticed the humor here but that does nothing to get you two out of the sick and twisted rap. The humor is all in the dialogue and the personal interactions and I think the contrast with the horrors around them serves to highlight the personal bonds.

We continue to see Arya use her all her senses to "see" and also the continued application of past lessons (even if she hasn't mastered catching fish with her hand yet.) I particularly like Lummel's observations about the cycle in Arya that repeats itself. I take her wanting to kick Yoren but not (while she did kick Fat Tom) as a sign of progress and learning. It isn't just wolves and cats, Arya seems to have a certain affinity for animals in general. There's the connection to horses, she imagined herself as an otter last chapter and here she identifies with the swans. The call of the lake is interesting. I suspect that after Martin introduces us to the Isle of Faces there will be more to say about this. We also have the continued tree theme and her climbing was reminiscent of Bran.

With all the darkness references we've seen I thought this bit from Bran might prove interesting moving forward.

“Never fear the darkness, Bran.” The lord’s words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. “The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother’s milk. Darkness will make you strong.”

[Lyanna Stark]

Arya wanting to bury at least Yoren is similar to Catelyn insisting on burying the dead.

I noticed that too. When Cat and Tyrion travelled to the Eyrie, Tyrion only notes that Cat looks annoyed that they cannot bury the dead, while Tyrion seems more aligned with the Lannister modus operandi to just leave whatever is dead since they're "used up" resources anyway. Arya's and Cat's view that these were "good men" (as Cat puts it) or in Arya's case people she fought alongside, and that they deserve some respect in death is not shared by Tyrion, from what we saw in his chapters. Arya and Cat have a direct parallel here though.

Gendry is repeatedly described as stubborn and 'having a pained expression when he is thinking'. Is anybody else reminded of Terry Pratchett's description of heroes in 'Guards!Guards!'? :D

Gendry as Captain Carrot? I like it! Only question is who's going to be Nobby Nobbs? Hot Pie is obviously Captain Colon.

I'm glad others mentioned the mother aspect of Arya and Weasel the No Longer Crying Girl. Arya is probably the reason she's no longer crying. I had noticed hints of that last chapter but she was also sending the girl away and more tentative in her protection there.

Yes, there's definitely a feeling that Arya is the one who Weasel has attached herself to, and that Arya defends the little girl when given the chance.

I also noticed the humor here but that does nothing to get you two out of the sick and twisted rap. The humor is all in the dialogue and the personal interactions and I think the contrast with the horrors around them serves to highlight the personal bonds.

Lummel and I need to bow down in shame at our depravity. At least I am not also a Septon so I declare Lummel the worse sinner. :P

I agree that the humour serves to highlight the personal bonds and also to show that there is still humanity left in the bleak world around them. Amory Lorch may treat people as less worth than the dirt on his boots, but Arya's little group still have very human interactions, with human concerns.

[Lyanna Stark]

Something I picked on in this chapter is arya's treament of weasel. She is holding weasel, "Arya tugged at Weasel's matted hair, thinking it might be best to hack it off."

This always stuck out to me because it seems like something a mother would do. And then I remembered two other instances when characters associated with motherhood doing something similar.

One is Catelyn, "Catelyn looked at Bran in his sick bed and brushed his hair back off his forehead. It had grown very long, she realized. She would have to cut it soon." and Sansa, "She sat on the bed and smoothed his long, fine hair...(talks about how Sweetrobyn won't let anyone touch it after his mother died, but...'Alayne wound a lock around her finger...)"

Good find on the parallel with Sansa and Cat! It really does emphasise that Arya has taken charge of Weasel. It's interesting to note too that Arya is considering whether she needs to cut Weasel's hair, in an odd mirroring of how Cat used to fuss about Arya needing to comb her own hair, and if she was only clean and neat, she'd be pretty. Arya also wonders whether Weasel has eaten mud again since her mouth was filthy. Overall, we see Arya having lots more motherlike concerns over Weasel than may be obvious at a first read through. When Gendry says they need to leave Weasel, Arya also totally takes Weasel's side, which I found quite moving.

My point is Arya says she doesn't want to get married or have children, and at her age it's not something a girl would really think about. But just from that one line I see the potential of Arya becoming a mother when comparing it to her mother and sister.

This is definitely something to keep in mind for further reading, I think, that like Brienne, Arya seems to reject the traditional role of women in society, but she does not reject the fact that she is a woman. In that, Arya has very "modern" problems. Modern women also battle trying to balance work with children, or doing something outside the home with having a family. That does not necessarily mean a complete rejection of anything related to having children and a family. Arya also seems to value her mother a lot, which means she doesn't have issues with motherhood based on a negative role model. Cat seems to be a source of strength that both Arya and Sansa can draw from.

Many people mention Sansa holding riverrun, but I think Arya has great potential. She may need work on politics, but we have also seen the Riverlands need a good battle commander. Arya is learning it from her travels during the war and we see her instincts and stepping in to lead for her "pack". I think she can be a warrior princess and have a family as well, if it's what she wants.

Judging by the imagery in Arya's chapters, she has far more water imagery than Sansa, and from the very start, there was the "wolf with a fish in its mouth" comment Jon made about combining the Tully and Stark arms. Arya has also travelled the Riverlands. In this chapter, she even gets as one with the land, since she walks barefoot (in itself an interesting imagery, a sort of penance?) and feels the mud of the Riverlands between her toes.

Interestingly, if we draw on the parallels between Cat and Arya, the Blackfish mentions in AGOT that Cat could have ruled in her own right, but that he does not think Lysa is able to. If Arya is following in Cat's footsteps, then it may lead to her somehow ruling a holdfast in her own right. It would also nicely match Ned's comment about how she could not be a lord or a high septon, but had to marry one, which Arya did not want. Genna Lannister with Frey husband now rule Riverrun, and due to her much higher status, Genna seems to be the one calling the shots there. Her husband, Emmon, also says that "no man" will take Riverrun from him. Well, how about a woman? (Hasn't he learnt anything from Macbeth and Lord of the Rings? As soon as you specify things like gender of your nemesis or of woman born, you've just shot yourself in the foot.)

[Lummel]

Some obvious observations.

The lake calling to Arya. The place that calls to people is the 'blue' in the sky cells. I'm not sure that this is a friendly motive!

The Black Swans. Interesting. Black Swans in our world are native to Australia and symbolic of unpredictable and unforeseeable events - on the grounds that before Black Swans were discovered in Australia the concept was unimaginable. Maybe this is a stretch but the kind of conflict, gloves off and no respect for social conventions (like respecting the Nights Watch) that we are seeing in the Riverlands seems also to be as surprising and shocking to many of the participants as the sight of Black Swans originally was to the sailors from the Old World.

The children are the honourable society. They care for each other even to the extent of carrying the useless Lommy Greenhands while the adults run off, don't bury their own dead and take the pragmatic way out with Lommy.

Gibbets and the display of bodies. This is something that continues through ASOS and AFFC in the Riverlands. I'm not sure if this is a dominance display or part of shock and awe tactics, but either way I see it as a sign that this a war that is being fought psychologically as much as with steel.

[Daphne23]

If Arya is following in Cat's footsteps, then it may lead to her somehow ruling a holdfast in her own right. It would also nicely match Ned's comment about how she could not be a lord or a high septon, but had to marry one, which Arya did not want. Genna Lannister with Frey husband now rule Riverrun, and due to her much higher status, Genna seems to be the one calling the shots there. Her husband, Emmon, also says that "no man" will take Riverrun from him. Well, how about a woman? (Hasn't he learnt anything from Macbeth and Lord of the Rings? As soon as you specify things like gender of your nemesis or of woman born, you've just shot yourself in the foot.)

I love this idea! I'm very much hoping that Sansa will rule as regent in Winterfell until Rickon comes of age, so if Arya ruled in Riverrun in her own right, that would allow both sisters to survive and prosper. I also find it very satisfying that they would then both inherit the seats of the parent they bear most psychological resemblance to - Arya would be Cat's heir, and Sansa Ned's. However, I won't speculate any further as that would mean jumping much too far ahead. I haven't had a chance to read this chapter yet and don't have the book with me at the moment, so will try and commnt on the text later.

[brashcandy]

The three black swans seemed like a serene, yet as usual (for this environment) deceptive image of peace and tranquility, meant to foreshadow the much more foreboding three black dogs on the Mountain's sigil.

Btw, fantastic discussion everyone :) It's interesting how both Sansa and Arya have the mother archetype as a kind of fundamental symbol in their development.

[Ragnorak]

I had pondered the black swans. I thought of bastards inverting their House colors, Artemis and Apollo (but we have three not two swans), Cersei and Tyrion's shared meal of swan, Tyrion's thought of what Lord Swann (the only House I'm aware of with swans on their arms) would do if he had a third son, but none of that seemed quite relevant. I like Lummel's unpredictable and unforseeable symbolism, but brashcandy's contrast to Gregor's three black dogs is my favorite. Lady Smallwood is also a Swann which might matter if the swan theme continues.

The psychological aspect of this destruction as a tactic is true but also extreme even by some historical standards. Sherman's March through the South in the American Civil War was designed to psychologically break the South and had similar destruction of crops and foraging parties, but never the same abuse of the civilians-- at least it was violating when it happened. We see Stannis and Tarly geld rapists within their ranks but Tywin's opening move is to specifically order rape. The break down of social conventions from the toll of war we see with the Brotherhood, Broken Men, and others throughout the series is Tywin's tactic and intent from the start. We repeatedly see it commented on that the highborns don't care about the fate of the smallfolk. While generally true with a few honorable exceptions, Tywin does specifically care about the fate of the smallfolk and all of this destruction is not the usual side effect of war but his whole purpose.

I do take the lake as a friendly calling. This is the place Howland Reed went to visit and Meera and Jojen mention "mud" a good deal to Bran when talking about how what has been forgotten in Winterfell is remembered in the swamps. Something about the way Arya connects mud to life made Jojen stand out to me. We also have Arya beginning to wake with her warging. We had the wolf encounter in the woods, the wolf dream, hearing the whisperig tree, the shivers up her spine at the sound of wolves, and we know where those are leading.

We have a bit of maternal imagery and some Septon Meribald penance to the cobbler with the loss of shoes, but I don't pick up on any other Faith imagery. She seems to have left the Seven behind with the crystal on the child's grave. Am I missing something?

[Lyanna Stark]

We have a bit of maternal imagery and some Septon Meribald penance to the cobbler with the loss of shoes, but I don't pick up on any other Faith imagery. She seems to have left the Seven behind with the crystal on the child's grave. Am I missing something?

The barefoot walk stood out to me as well, and I've been pondering it some. The first thing that struck me was penance, like Septon Meribald, but Arya doesn't really have anything to atone for. The second is that she gets "closer to the land", perhaps a link to the Children of the Forest, or like you say Jojen (loving that reference).

From my own frame of reference there is the lovely poem by Nils Ferlin from his collection "Barefoot children":

Du har tappat ditt ord och din papperslapp,

du barfotabarn i livet.

Så sitter du åter på handlarns trapp

och gråter så övergivet.

Vad var det för ord - var det långt eller kort,

var det väl eller illa skrivet?

Tänk efter nu - förrn vi föser dej bort,

du barfotabarn i livet.

Rough translation would be:

You've lost your word and your paper note

you life's barefoot child

And you sit again on the stairs of the shop

crying so forlornly

What was the word - was it long or short

was it well of poorly written?

Think carefully now - before we drive you away.

you life's barefoot child

[Milady of York]

Water is also linked to the figure of the mother and death (the souls of the dead went into the waters to await rebirth) in some ancient cultures, as water was an element usually associated with the Great Mother; so a desire to plunge into it and be embraced and caressed by the warm liquid can be taken as yearning for the absent maternal figure, who would comfort you this way, and her calming force would cleanse and restore your spirit. Water is a feminine element in the majority of ancient mythologies, it heals and consoles, and is also a symbol of compassion.

No European culture had any symbolism associated with black swans, so any symbolism is posterior to the time Martin is depicting, and most of the existing ones belong to the Australian aborigines; however, they did have lots of different symbolical interpretations of swans, of the white variety, none of which is useful in this scene. But Asian cultures do have some interesting examples: they thought swans, as they lived in water, harboured the spirits that mediated between fire above and water below, thus being a sort of a balancing force between both the destructive and creative sides of Fire and Water (ice is frozen liquid after all). And, to find one more symbol of death in Arya’s arc, in Chinese mythology, swans are one of the eight birds (all of them with black feathers) owned by the Lords of Death, which does support the link Brashcandy sees between the swans and the black dogs of Gregor. The unpredictability and foreseeability interpretation is not truly a strict symbolism but a contemporary and very recently created metaphor that comes from a theory about economics popularised years after ACOK was published.

All interpretations of walking barefooted I know stem from biblical sources, in which it usually has three meanings, two of which tie in with Arya’s arc here, but the third does not. First, it’s the symbol of humiliation, of loss of status and captivity, because captives of war were forced to walk barefooted, and also those who’d fallen from grace or lost their status in life had to go around without shoes. Second, sorrow and mourning for the dead or for oneself, grief for one’s own losses. Third, reverence for the gods one believes in, because their god (Israel’s) demanded that they approach his place of worship or serve him barefooted in some occasions as a sign of humility, which is more apt in the case of Meribald. The latter was also true for Greece and Rome, where people had to enter temples or go in processions barefooted (curiously, mostly in rituals involving female deities, not male deities). Another symbolism, this time peculiar only of Athens and Sparta, was that being barefoot meant you were stoic and strong, and for that reason boys and girls training in the Spartan military and sports camps had to have their shoes off so their feet would toughen up, a way to build character and resilience.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I think, that like Brienne, Arya seems to reject the traditional role of women in society, but she does not reject the fact that she is a woman.

I agree, and would contrast Arya (and Brienne) to Cersei, who not only is rejecting the traditional female role, she does reject the fact that she is a woman - ironically at the same time that she does her best to use her beauty as a weapon (as well as *cough* that "weapon between her legs").

More examples of women who reject traditional female roles but do not reject their actual womanhood: the Mormont ladies, Maege and her daughters, are all warriors and seem to have a matriarchal tradition going on. Catelyn observes how much more comfortable the ladies Mormont are in both armor and dresses, much more so than Brienne.

Meera Reed is another, though she may be perfectly aligned with Crannogmen gender roles as we don't know much about that culture. In fact, when Bran first meets her, he compares her favorably to Arya. Meera seems perfectly fine with being a woman; it doesn't seem strange to her that she, the only female in the party accompanying Bran north of the Wall, is the one who is doing the hunting for all of them.

[Elba the Intoner]

Great discussion everyone! I love the idea behind the "no man will take it away from me" line. There's so much water imagery associated with Arya already that I never picked up on before, and I also love the idea of Arya having some of the Tully, trout, symbolism and what that could mean for her future. But my favorite thing about this chapter from the first time I read it has to be Arya and Gendry's conversation when he reveals that he knows she's a girl. All that stuff about taking out her cock and proving that she's a boy and Arya panicking and then it reverses and Gendry sort of panics when he realizes she's highborn and says he should have never said all that stuff about cocks and he's been peeing in front of her :laugh:! Love it. But then it ends so brutally with Lommy's cruel death, ugh. You really go from one extreme to another here.

[Errant Bard]

This water imagery talk has me uneasy. It's one thing to set up purposeful association that mean something, it's another to mention water regularly because your character travels and encounters rain, river, lakes and sea; in my mind the water/Arya association falls in the latter category.

[Fire Eater]

Part of her wanted to be a swan.

He was not envious of these beautiful creatures, but wished to be as lovely as they.- The Ugly Duckling

This also fits in the swan symbolism. Arya, like the ugly duckling, was born different from her siblings, being the only one taking after their father in appearance while her siblings favored their mother.

The ugly duckling is also come across by a large, terrible dog who passes over him, as Arya is come across by the dog, Gregor Clegane, who thankfully doesn't touch her.

After a hard winter, the ugly duckling matures into a swan, described by children as the most beautiful swan of them all with all the old swans bowing their heads before him. Winter has come, and I think this may foreshadow that after the hard winter is over, Arya will mature into the most attractive of swans.

[Lummel]

Water is also linked to the figure of the mother and death (the souls of the dead went into the waters to await rebirth) in some ancient cultures, as water was an element usually associated with the Great Mother; so a desire to plunge into it and be embraced and caressed by the warm liquid can be taken as yearning for the absent maternal figure...

Quite, in that way it is an image of a yearning for death, to die. The great mother is ultimately the earth, a return to the earth is death (ashes to ashes...). But in the natural world everything that dies is reborn the following Spring! Arrggghhh! Where does this image end :laugh: because once we get to death=life then not only can everything mean anything but anything does mean everything and we're in Foucault's Pendulum!

The problem with these big diffuse images is that there are no clear boundaries. Everything is related by natural and clear associations to everything else and quickly you have an image that far from making something about a character clearer and more precise actually makes it confused and obscure. No one wants to go down the Rabbit hole with Alice.

Because of that I don't think that trying to seize on to water as a symbol is useful. Water in a desert means something different to water in a flood. The associations between the flowing waters of a river or stream are different to those of the still waters of a lake.

Arya feels that the lake is calling to her. Well perhaps she does want to die. On the other hand perhaps she wants to have a swim and clean herself up a bit! Perhaps the still calm waters of the lake are there as a contrast to the violence and action of the world of humans.

If the lake is literally calling her then we are in a Shamanistic world (and I suppose there are hints with the children of the forest that we might be in such a world). Somebody else who calls to people from bodies of water is Rusalka (although it's men she's usually after) - so death again.

Alternatively we're in a psychological world, it's not the lake calling to Arya, this is what she feels when she sees the lake...so death, cleanliness, wish for childlike playfulness expressed through swimming and splashing - take your pick ;)

[Lyanna Stark]

Having cheated a bit with Arya's chapters, there is a lot of water imagery later on, too. But of course, it's hard to tell what's symbolic on purpose and what is just water. ;)

[Blisscraft]

Promises

Once again, I'm a little late to the party. However, there are a couple of things I noticed. The making and keeping of promises seems to be a large part of the overall theme of this work. In this Arya chapter, and the Sansa chapter before it, are both about promises made to each girl respectively. The promise made to Arya by Yoren to take her home to Winterfell is presented as a thought, a memory filled with sadness and anger that it was unkept by Yoren's death. The sadness drives Arya's desire to find Yoren and bury him. Arya's anger at Yoren's unfulfilled promise makes her want to kick even though he's dead.

In the Sansa chapter, the promise is made to her by Dontos in the godswood. It is played out in the present and not a memory clouded with sadness and anger. However, the promises made to the girls are the very same: each respective smelly old man promises to take them home to Winterfell.

The word "promise" can be used as a noun or a verb. It means as a verb "to send forth," or to pledge oneself to perform or provide something specific. As a noun, it means "the declaration that one will do or refrain from doing or performing something specified." Promises can become more "solemn" depending upon where they are made, such as in a godswood or before a Sept or a single heart tree. Then, it seems under such conditions in Westeros, that a promise may also be called a "vow."

Bird's eye view; Up a Tree

Arya's chapter starts with her out on a limb. She sees the chimneys, then the thatched roofs, and when she sees "the tendrils of smoke," she knows that someone it there. The smoke from the fires tells her there is life in the village, although from high in the tree, it still appears deserted.

The life she sees from up the tree is mostly birds; crows and the three black swans. I associated the black swans with the ballet, Swan Lake. In it there is the white swan, Odette, and the black swan, Odile. I really loved the Ugly Duckling idea with the swan, as well as the Clegane sigil with their number and color. The black swans are "rare birds," even in Westeros. The crows bring to mind the NW generally and Yoren specifically. Finally, there is Ayra's memory of the possiblity of having a hawk. It never materializes. There seem to be no birds of prey for Arya now; only carrion birds and water birds.

Mud Underfoot

I am a barefoot mud lover myself. Cummings poetically refered to "mud-luscious," and "puddle-wonderful" in Chansons Innocentes. Arya likes the feel of the earth "underfoot." This echoes her nick name, "Ayra Underfoot," given to her by the fellows at Winterfell.

[Ragnorak]

Love it Blisscraft. E. E. Cummings is a particular favorite of mine. Your reference reminded me of maggie, milly, molly and may which also rather appropriate for Arya. Very keen and insightful observations.