Old Gods, cold gods and Starks: a Heretic re-read

[nanother]

@ Feather,

That's fine, I was just a bit confused and wasn't sure whether I should slow down or just move on. Not that I had the peace and quiet to think about the next chapter before now anyway - working on it now.

I hope your work is enjoyable at least.

[evita mgfs]

Hello, All. Love this thread, and I am up to page 5 and wanted to share a few observations I have made before I forget them. I hope I am not repeating too much of what has already been established.

The Direwolf Re-read Thread may not have many posters, but those we do have are MEGA HIGH quality. So, in our discussions, we delve into some deep analysis founded on relevant evidence from the text. Since it is my first re-read, we have been learning as we go, and I will share with you an observation REDRIVER made that we then decided to follow: REDRIVER advised that a thread is an “organic” entity and sometimes when we are inspired by other posts, we often referred to events to come. So the rule of “staying on topic” without discussing future chapters was one we quickly dismissed.

Next, we decided to read ALL the POV’s – if we skip and choose, we are missing too much that hooks one chapter into the next through transitions that mirror a conflict, a character, a symbol, even language patterns – we would totally miss the very artistry that is Martin: our author is telling a story, and he constructs his prose like an architect does a building. [i call this Martin technique “Tyrion’s Chain” – each POV is linked to the next, like the chain he has made for the Black Water Battle; however, it can also be the chain of clasped hands – that works too!] One small part connects to another, and eventually the subtler elements blossom or grow into something meaningful and intense. For instance, one great observation that The Pack Survives made early on has become a popular motif we all augment with evidence during discussions after each POV is introduced: she proposed that the building structures, like Winterfell and the Wall, actually have the ability to “protect” themselves. Jon Snow says the Wall is defending itself against the wildlings, casting them off when the wall face tumbles. Even Winterfell, which lives and breathes, its lifeblood pumping hot in its Walls, is personified: the crypts “breathe”. Maester Luwin equates WF to an enormous tree with roots that go deep into the ground. Even after the fire, WF stood tall, and the crypts were safeguarded from intruders as well. So, as a result, we trace Martin’s personification of structures, and you will see the pattern as well in your reread.

DIREWOLF MOTHER AND PUPS

I wanted to add a few observations regarding the birth of the pups, and I am going to use as evidence my own experiences with breeding golden retrievers. We have dame and sire on premises, and the dame births in an enormous whelping box my husband built, complete with baby bumpers: canine mothers sometimes smother their own pups “accidentally” by resting on top of them, and the bumpers help prevent this.

Goldens’ eyes open within a week, and some even have their eyes opening soon after birth. They often open their eyes for a short period, then close them, depending on the situation. When the pups are handled by humans, their eyes open much quicker because they are being stimulated in a different way.

During the birthing process, the dame may stand to expel each pup – the mother does not always remain resting. Each pup comes within an hour of the other. The dame can clean a pup after birth within ten minutes. She has to break the sack, chew off the cord, and she eats anything that is on the pup and the discharge that comes with each pup.

The mother usually needs to leave her litter – even before all the pups are born – if she has to urinate and empty her bowels. She will not do this near her pups. A warning to breeders concerns this aspect, and the breeder needs to accompany the mother in the event she squats and drops a pup – and she may not even realize it. After she does her business, the dame will want to go immediately back to her pups.

When the mother is gone, a pup may lose its bearings and crawl away from its littermates. Since they are born in the wild and not a whelping box, there are no sides to contain them. I believe that Ghost may have crawled off, disoriented – but since his eyes are opened, he may have been trailing after, looking for mother. This may be why he is away from the others. Moreover, Ghost may have been the first born, and maybe more developed than his mates. Since Ghost is clean and white, mother obviously did her duty – so she did not accidentally “drop” Ghost. [Pups wandered away from mom even in a whelping box, and they would be stuck in a corner on the other side. They squeal like pigs when they can’t find her. Martin makes Ghost “silent” for a purpose!]

Someone mentioned the fact that the direwolves were not spotted on the way to the holdfast. In the wild, animals camouflage their bedding, finding a location in which they blend into the forest floor. [On many, many hikes through the PA Game Lands and state parks, I have observed baby animals hidden by their mothers.] Fawns are often concealed in tall grasses, and they blend into the environment and remain so still, hikers walk right past them without noticing. Even my dogs have walked past fawns hidden in the grasses. However, baby porcupines are another story. They roll into a ball and look like a rock, but if the dog sees the porcupine “before” it rolls up, the dog will think the porcupine is a ball and try to retrieve it. We have performed many emergency quill removals on the hikes with our dogs!

However, newborn pups, especially hungry newborn pups, make quite a racket. That was the biggest surprise to us after the litters were born! They whimper and cry from the minute they take their first breaths. While nursing, they continue to make all kinds of noises – we could hear our newborns if we were in the attic – and their whelping box was in the basement! So – it is more likely that the party would have heard the pups well before ever seeing them. But the horses clomping, reins jingling, wind blowing, and so on would have muted the pups’ whimpers. Then, the direwolves all had shades of grey in their fur, which is the color of stone and dirt and even some bark. I think mom hid her pups well. Ghost, from a distance, would look like a small clump of dirty snow, no pun intended.

Now, I am going to tell you a true story about my oldest golden Prince, a veteran hiker who always had ill luck: he was caught in a bear trap; he fell through a bridge with double logs, where he dangled by his shoulders with his butt in the rapid waters of a river until we finally pulled him out. [My hiking buddy was an RN, so we always had hikers who knew what to do in emergencies.] On one hike, Prince scaled an embankment. On the trail and through the forest floor, trees had fallen over due to a tornado. Prince jumped from the embankment onto a fallen tree with a branch sticking up from the bark. Needless to say, he was impaled just below his throat. The spike broke off, and the RN was able to remove it and cleanse the wound. He was not hurt. But guess what? This scenario reminds me of the antler impaled in the mother direwolf’s throat.

In my opinion, the mother direwolf may have left her pups to relieve herself, [dogs never relieve themselves where they sleep and eat] and she may have encountered the stag at this point. Unless the stag was encroaching on her pups, the female may not have attacked – she would have had her mind set on returning to nurse the pups. [They are obsessed and single-minded about this! They also are weak, drained, dehydrated, and starving – my dame wanted to eat while nursing!] But if she did sense danger, she probably circled the stag, snapping at his feet. [she would have been far too weak to pounce, tear open his neck, and take the stag down – although her instinct may have been strong.] The stag, probably not full grown, plowed into the direwolf with his antlers. One impaled her, and the stag threw his head up and back, tossing the direwolf over his head – or off to the side, the spike breaking off in the direwolf’s neck. The stag probably ran off. The direwolf returned to her litter where she nursed her pups up to and after her death. Puncture wounds do not bleed out as badly if the weapon is not removed – or the antler.

****Another point: a “spike” is a word for an antler. In a later POV, King Robert will threaten Ned three times that he will have Ned’s head on a SPIKE. Ned’s head on a “spike” mirrors the mother direwolf’s demise!

****Time of Death: The mother direwolf may have been dead only a few hours. Recently, I lost two pets, one passing at home. Phantom died, and within an hour his eyes rolled back in his head and whitened, and he was stiff as a board. I had to take him to the vet this way – a nightmare. Now my Phantom weighed about 10 pounds, and he stiffened inside a warm house while on the stove surface. [Don’t ask – he liked to sleep on the stove!] So, exposed to the elements and weakened by the ordeal and probably in shock, the mother may have died within a three hour period, the earliest, I think.

****Jon finding Ghost: Bran as witness hears nothing. Only Jon hears “something” – I believe this is the point where we established that Jon and Ghost are already telepathically connected. Ghost calls to Jon and he answers. BLISSCRAFT already established this, but I thought it was an important point worth repeating.

****All the direwolves share characteristics aligned with the forces that are the “old gods”: weirwoods, CotF, BloodRaven. All but Ghost has “grey” fur, linking them with the Starks.

LITTLE WING says that the mother direwolf MAY represent Catelyn – well, I think the mother direwolf symbolizes many things, in part Catelyn. The pups are MOTHERLESS, and FATHERLESS. The Stark children will also be motherless and fatherless. Is this why the pups are sent? Catelyn’s throat is slit; the mother direwolf’s throat is impaled by a spike. So, Little Wing, I think you are spot on!

I have a few more observations, but I will read through the rest of the thread and add more that may be heretical, including how the direwolf may have ended up beyond the Wall.

[Little Wing]

Hey, Evita! So glad you posted! ^_^

[evita mgfs]

THANKS, LITTLE WING.

I am rereading our Reread Thread #1 to hunt for ideas that may be deemed heretic. But there is so much good stuff. Here is just a taste:

May I share a few more points from the reread I thought you might like. Also, if you want to read a thorough analysis of the colors and natures of the pups, be sure to read the first 1-8 pages of the Direwolve Reread #1, DARK HEART.

Still from Bran POV 1, Chapter 2

EVITA SAID:

• Ned says to Bran:
  

“One day Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will belong to you.When this day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away.A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is” (16).

NOW, I will ADJUST Ned’s wording to fit Bran’s situation “presently” as we know it:

“One day, Bran, you will be a greenseer, sitting a weirwood throne of your own for the old gods of the North, and justice will belong to you.When that day comes, you must take no vengeance for personal reasons, but neither must you shirk your duties as part of the godhood.A god who hides behind the face of a weirwood tree soon forgets what death is.”

I couldn’t help it.I think these words of Ned’s are significant even in regards to Bran presently.

I applied Ned’s advice to Bran the greenseer.So let me ask you, gentle readers, do you think Bran will be a vengeful god, at least at first?Why or Why not?

• Does Ned speak with unconscious irony here, or am I overanalyzing Martin’s word choice:
  

“Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now” (17).

• Ned uses the verb rooted – what does this mean?
  
• Do Ned’s words suggest that “rooted out” means that the direwolves are sent by the old gods, who reside in the roots of trees?
  

• “The riders picked their way carefully through the drifts, grouping for solid footing on the hidden, uneven ground. Jory Cassel and Theon Greyjoy were the first to reach the boys. Theon was laughing and joking as he rode. Bran heard the breath go out of him. “Gods!” he exclaimed, struggling to keep control of his horse as he reached for his sword.
  

Jory’s sword was already out.“Robb, get away from it!’ he called as his horse reared under him.

• Theon says “Gods!” in conjunction to the direwolf. Is his choice of word intentional? Or is he saying ir merely as an expletive?
  
• Will Bran someday hear “Theon’s breath” leave him for real in the future?
  

• Robb grinned and looked up from the bundle in his arms. ‘She can’t hurt you,’ he said. ‘She’s dead, Jory.’
  

• Does Robb speak with unconscious irony when he suggests that the dead can’t hurt you?”
  

• “A wolf,” Robb told him [Theon].
  

“A freak,” Greyjoy said.”

• Freak rhymes with Reek – is this a happy coincidence?
  

FLORINA STARK SAID:

Thats pretty close to what i meant, yeah. The Mother Direwolf represents two different figures here in my mind. She represents Ned first. A large force who gives birth to five direwolf pups. But she is slain by an antler. While Ned's death looks to be at the hands of the Lannisters, it is a Baratheon (in name only) who does deliver the final blow. But the true stag (Robert) was the reason Ned was there in the first place. The pups are still trying to cling to their mother. Their eyes are not yet open to the truth. That the mother (or in this case, Ned) is dead. They struggle to find a means to keep living. This symbolizes the trials that the Stark kids must endure after Ned's death. Immediately afterwards, their eyes are still closed to the true reality. And its not until they are in the care of others that their eyes open and they come into their own.

The mother wolf symbolizes Lyanna as well. She fled from the stag to find her own identity and her own choices. But the stag's antler still caught up with her. (While no Baratheon laid the killing blow to Lyanna, she had to run and hide it seems.) And she still died. But not before giving birth to a wolf, not just any pup, but a pup who is different from his "brothers and sisters." Still going on the Ned symbolism above, the albino pup is still a part of the brood. He was away from the others, symbolizing Jon's separation from his siblings. "Born with the dead" symbolizes how Lyanna died as soon as her "pup" was born. The coloring of Ghost, to me, symbolizes Jon's identity as "Snow" and also hints to his true identity. He isnt what he seems. Ghost's eyes are open to start with. Pups who's eyes are open before their brothers and sisters are usually older. So i believe Ghost actually was born first, and it could be that Jon was born first. Plus Jon's eyes are more open to the reality of his own situation long before the story began. He is more self aware.

It could be that the old gods sent the mother wolf. It could be a symbol of how Ned moves South as well away from his home. Just as Lyanna did. Nice eye there!

[nanother]

Wow Evita, thanks for both the fascinating insight into the "direwolves'" birthing process and digging up Heretic thoughts from your thread! I did read much of the first thread back when you mentioned it in Heresy (and some of the 2nd edition) and it's indeed very high quality stuff!

[evita mgfs]

Wow Evita, thanks for both the fascinating insight into the "direwolves'" birthing process and digging up Heretic thoughts from your thread! I did read much of the first thread back when you mentioned it in Heresy (and some of the 2nd edition) and it's indeed very high quality stuff!

NANOTHER: Thanks! You are doing a great job here as well. I apologize for posting "out of order", but your presentations here seem forgiving, like ours. I have more past notes that really follow Martin's language patterns, and they intimate a great deal, sort of like a puzzle he leaves for his readers to figure out. Or he leaves "bread crumbs" for us to gather and try to make sense of.

[nanother]

Here comes the next chapter. As always, feel free to continue discussing the previous ones.

@ Evita: sure it's absolutely OK to post 'out of order'. The aim of this re-read is to gain deeper understanding, which is hardly possible if we bury our noses in one single chapter at a time! As to your remarks about missing out on important things by skipping chapters - I agree. However, since we mostly focus on Heresy-related clues, a full re-read would likely make very hard to connect the dots (both because the increased time-frame and due to the overwhelming amount of information in the books) and the non-North chapters tend to have very little to offer anyway. I'm not sure how best to handle these skipped chapters, though - for Bran's vision, for example, I did end up reading several additional chapters to get the context...

Jon III (Chapter 19)

Mostly character building at this point: Jon displays his angsty teenager side, unvilling to accept his place in the Night's Watch, until Donal Noyle talks sense into him. It's really the good news of Bran waking that helps him to overcome his resentment and start befriending his 'brothers'. Alas, he makes himself a rather vicious enemy in the process...

We also get our first glimpse of the Wall:

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. Even after all these weeks, the sight of it still gave him the shivers. Centuries of windblown dirt had pocked and scoured it, covering it like a film, and it often seemed a pale grey, the color of an overcast sky . . . but when the sun caught it fair on a bright day, it shone, alive with light, a colossal blue-white cliff that filled up half the sky.

The first italicised bit is exactly how Bran saw the Wall in his vision: 'shining like a blue crystal'. 'Alive with (moon)light' is how the Other's sword was described in the prologue.

The largest structure ever built by the hands of man, Benjen Stark had told Jon on the kingsroad when they had first caught sight of the Wall in the distance. “And beyond a doubt the most useless,” Tyrion Lannister had added with a grin, but even the Imp grew silent as they rode closer. You could see it from miles off, a pale blue line across the northern horizon, stretching away to the east and west and vanishing in the far distance, immense and unbroken. This is the end of the world, it seemed to say.

So Westeros-wide the consensus is that the Wall was built by the hands of man. Is that so? Some Heretics grew to suspect otherwise, over the course of the books...

Also, from Bran's vision we know that the 'real' end of the world is a curtain of light, beyound which lies the heart of winter...

When they finally spied Castle Black, its timbered keeps and stone towers looked like nothing more than a handful of toy blocks scattered on the snow, beneath the vast wall of ice. The ancient stronghold of the black brothers was no Winterfell, no true castle at all.

That's not what he told Ygritte :P of course, she was dying at the time, so I guess the lie (if it was one) was 'not without honor' :(

Lacking walls, it could not be defended, not from the south, or east, or west; but it was only the north that concerned the Night’s Watch, and to the north loomed the Wall. Almost seven hundred feet high it stood, three times the height of the tallest tower in the stronghold it sheltered. His uncle said the top was wide enough for a dozen armored knights to ride abreast. The gaunt outlines of huge catapults and monstrous wooden cranes stood sentry up there, like the skeletons of great birds, and among them walked men in black as small as ants.

This is one example of how spread out information is in the books: the italicised part is explained in detail in ASoS, revealing that it's on purpose so that the Watch can easily be kept in check, and providing a list of troublesome Lord Commanders the realm had to deal with. (I couldn't resist looking this up since it came up recently in the last Heresy thread...)

As he stood outside the armory looking up, Jon felt almost as overwhelmed as he had that day on the kingsroad, when he’d seen it for the first time. The Wall was like that. Sometimes he could almost forget that it was there, the way you forgot about the sky or the earth underfoot, but there were other times when it seemed as if there was nothing else in the world. It was older than the Seven Kingdoms, and when he stood beneath it and looked up, it made Jon dizzy. He could feel the great weight of all that ice pressing down on him, as if it were about to topple, and somehow Jon knew that if it fell, the world fell with it.

Foreshadowing much? Anyway, this is something that's being questioned in the Heresy threads: is it really the end of the world if it falls, or, on the contrary, is it the cause of the out-of-whack seasons and is its fall actually necessary to restore balance?

Cold:

Chunks of coal burned in iron braziers at either end of the long room, but Jon found himself shivering. The chill was always with him here. In a few years he would forget what it felt like to be warm.

That again resonates with Bran's vision of him.

So cold, he thought, remembering the warm halls of Winterfell, where the hot waters ran through the walls like blood through a man’s body. There was scant warmth to be found in Castle Black; the walls were cold here, and the people colder.

(That's the exact same imagery about Winterfell that was used in Cat II...)

Yes. Cold and hard and mean, that’s the Wall, and the men who walk it.

The Watch:

Even his uncle had abandoned him in this cold place at the end of the world. Up here, the genial Benjen Stark he had known became a different person. He was First Ranger, and he spent his days and nights with Lord Commander Mormont and Maester Aemon and the other high officers, while Jon was given over to the less than tender charge of Ser Alliser Thorne.

Three days after their arrival, Jon had heard that Benjen Stark was to lead a half-dozen men on a ranging into the haunted forest. That night he sought out his uncle in the great timbered common hall and pleaded to go with him. Benjen refused him curtly. “This is not Winterfell,” he told him as he cut his meat with fork and dagger. “On the Wall, a man gets only what he earns. You’re no ranger, Jon, only a green boy with the smell of summer still on you.”

If you thought your Stark blood would win you easy favors, you were wrong. We put aside our old families when we swear our vows. Your father will always have a place in my heart, but these are my brothers now.” He gestured with his dagger at the men around them, all the hard cold men in black.

Later we learn that isn't entirely true, his Stark blood does count for something. (But it's not entirely false either, he still has to prove himself)

As he watched his uncle lead his horse into the tunnel, Jon had remembered the things that Tyrion Lannister told him on the kingsroad, and in his mind’s eye he saw Ben Stark lying dead, his blood red on the snow. The thought made him sick. What was he becoming?

:worried: I hope it'll be Bran who turns out to be right and the Children will save him... (although, as the saying goes: be careful what you wish for!)

He wanted to ride with Benjen Stark on his rangings, deep into the mysteries of the haunted forest, wanted to fight Mance Rayder’s wildlings and ward the realm against the Others, but it was better not to speak of the things you wanted.

Soooo how seriously do people believe that the Watch is 'warding the realm against the Others'? Ned doesn't believe they exist anymore (for the last 8000 years), according to him Maester Luwin doesn't believe they ever existed, Tyrion keeps joking about grumpkins and snarks... They still feature in tales and legends prominently enough to scare the shit out of Will on his first ranging, but he then laughs abut it afterward.

Clearly seasoned Watchmen do know something is out there, but it's hard to make out how much they really know, and, alone among the highborn or educated (perhaps under the influence of the heart tree), Catelyn seems to believe they still exist beyond the Wall. Jon seems to take it seriously, which is slightly surprising from a 'son' of Ned, but then is it just because he still hasn't grown out of Old Nan's tales, or did Ben say something to him, or does he just want to believe it so that he can feel better about being dumped there?

As to the state of the Watch:

Once Castle Black had housed five thousand fighting men with all their horses and servants and weapons. Now it was home to a tenth that number, and parts of it were falling into ruin.

The Watch had built nineteen great strongholds along the Wall, but only three were still occupied: Eastwatch on its grey windswept shore, the Shadow Tower hard by the mountains where the Wall ended, and Castle Black between them, at the end of the kingsroad. The other keeps, long deserted, were lonely, haunted places, where cold winds whistled through black windows and the spirits of the dead manned the parapets.

We'll lear from Bran much later that the Nightfort was the first castle abandoned, 200 years ago, when a new, smaller castle was built instead. So, while the Watch was severely weakened even back then, there had been a rapid decline from a state where it still made sense to replace a castle instead of just abandoning it, to 16 of the 19 castles being derelict and even parts of the ones still occupied falling to ruin... rather strange, considering the Watch existed for thousands of years, and even in the many hundreds of years since the Andal invasion (when it would make sense for most of the realm to lose interest in the Watch, them being a First Men organisation) it didn't decline as badly as in the last 200...

Other remarkable stuff:

And Arya . . . he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had . . . yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him.

He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

“I hear that a good many rangers have vanished of late,” Lannister said as they mounted the steps to the common hall. He grinned and pulled open the door. “Perhaps the grumkins are hungry this year.”

How true...

Meet Mormont and his raven:

Jeor Mormont, Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, was a gruff old man with an immense bald head and a shaggy grey beard. He had a raven on his arm, and he was feeding it kernels of corn. “I am told you can read.” He shook the raven off, and it flapped its wings and flew to the window, where it sat watching as Mormont drew a roll of paper from his belt and handed it to Jon. “Corn, “ it muttered in a raucous voice. “Corn, corn. “

“He woke up,” he said. “The gods gave him back.”

Is that what they did?

[evita mgfs]

GREAT JOB, NANOTHER.

i am adding a few things I wrote up for Jon III.

TRANSITIONS BETWEEN POV’S / CATELYN PRECEDING JON III

One thing I have not done yet is demonstrate how Martin provides transitions, sometimes subtle intimations, as he moves from one POV to the next. When I looked at the Catelyn POV prior to Jon’s these are some meritorious “connections” I noted:

• It is “obvious” that Jon replaces Catelyn’s hatred with Ser Alliser Thorn’s hatred, so one nemesis substitutes for another, and Thorn even likes to mock Jon’s bastardy by calling him “Lord Snow”. Poor Jon! I hope this is not a self-fulfilling prophecy!

• Littlefinger’s fairy tale about the origins of the dagger and the tourney details parallels Jon in the courtyard and the “song of swords”.
  
• The dagger’s Valryan steel edge corresponds to Martin’s description of Thorn’s voice: "Enough!" Ser Alliser Thorne had a voice with an edge like Valyrian steel.
  
• Catelyn’s fingers ache and Jon’s arm burns.
  
• Ser Alliser Thorne as master-of-arms supplants Ser Rodrik Cassel, master-of-arms at Winterfell.
  
• Both Catelyn and Jon are seemingly disillusioned with the gods: Varys says to Catelyn: “The gods are cruel”. Catelyn responds: “On that we can agree.” Jon thinks to himself: “If they [the gods] were real, he thought, they were as cruel and implacable as winter.”
  
• Joffrey’s name day is noted, as is Jon’s in his POV: "I'll be fifteen on my name day," he said.
  
• Jon knocks a sword from Grenn’s fingers, and the “fingers” reference Catelyn’s fingers and Little FINGER!
  

• Grenn’s wrist echoes Littlefinger’s wrist flick when he throws the dagger for dramatic effect. Grenn’s wrist ends up broken from Jon’s sword – too many people fall because of LF’s lies and the dagger.
  

FIRST SENTENCE

The courtyard rang to the song of swords.

• The “song of swords” is poetic, evocative of a pleasing sound with “rang” and “song” – but in reality, the sounds in the courtyard offer dissonance, with “crunches” and “cries”
  

of pain.There is nothing musical in this “song”, which reminds us that there is nothing romantic in warfare except in the “songs” the bards sing.

• The “song of swords” reminds me of the title The Storm of Swords.
  
• Martin leads us into this “song of swords” where we will see Jon, several of the new recruits, and the unpleasant Ser Alliser Thorne, the master-at-arms conducting this musical duel between Jon and Grenn.
  

INITIAL OBSERVATIONS

• Martin choses to omit GHOST from Jon III POV; however, Jon’s behavior in this POV may mirror the aggressiveness in his direwolf.

• Jon mentions Ghost when he reflects on his conflicting feelings, for Ghost is his bunkmate who is privy to Jon’s deepest secrets: “Afterward he sought out Ghost in the loneliness of his cell, and buried his face in his thick white fur.”
  
• Ghost is mentioned again when Tyrion asks about him. Thus, for the entire POV, we never see Ghost physically at Jon’s side in the present action of the POV, BUT Ghost is present in SPIRIT: Jon thinks of him, Jon talks about him, another asks about Ghost, and Jon’s behavior or “wolfishness” in the courtyard with Grenn and then after all are suspiciously aggressive: Jon’s “attitude” will change somewhat, but not before he antagonizes Alliser Thorn and earns an enemy for life.
  
• Ghost also represents SILENCE, and Jon shoots off his mouth in this POV when he would have done better to have Ghost at his side to remind him of the value of silence.
  

Bran’s vision of Jon from his Chapter 18 POV:

• Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.
  

Martin’s descriptions of Jon in his third POV:

• “Chunks of coal burned in iron braziers at either end of the long room, but Jon found himself shivering. The chill was always with him here. In a few years he would forget what it felt like to be warm.”
  
• This line “suggests” that the warmth will leave him in a few years because he will become conditioned to the cold, which does echo somewhat Bran’s earlier vision.
  
• “The weariness came on him suddenly, as he donned the roughspun blacks that were their everyday wear. He sat on a bench, his fingers fumbling with the fastenings on his cloak. So cold, he thought, remembering the warm halls of Winterfell, where the hot waters ran through the walls like blood through a man's body. There was scant warmth to be found in Castle Black; the walls were cold here, and the people colder.”
  
• The contrast with Winterfell’s warmth emphasizes the coldness of the Wall, [and Jon best not forget that he endured “coldness” at WF in the way Catelyn treated him.]
  
• The personification of Winterfell in the simile comparing the hot waters in the walls to the blood in a man’s body further adds to the theme of structures having a human-like essence.
  
• Benjen says, “Your father will always have a place in my heart, but these are my brothers now." He gestured with his dagger at the men around them, all the hard cold men in black. [The IRONY here is through suggestion: in ADwD, Jon’s black brothers prove to be hard cold men when they raise their daggers to kill Jon.]
  
• Martin’s reference to the “hard cold men” also seemingly echoes Bran’s earlier vision of Jon.
  
• Amidst the “ice” of the Wall we have Donal Noye, who metaphorically represents “fire” as tender of the forge, working with fire to meld his metals.
  
• Donal Noye says, "Yes. Cold and hard and mean, that's the Wall, and the men who walk it.”
  
• Again, the “cold” and “hard” echo Bran’s vision.
  

**I noticed that Martin describes Jon in terms of “coldness” until he learns of Bran awakening from his coma; then, Jon “warms” up to his fellow brothers, and that “iciness” in him seemingly melts. Note these marked examples:

“Under black wool, boiled leather, and mail, sweat trickled icily down Jon's chest as he pressed the attack.”

"Lord Eddard Stark was not a man to sleep with whores," Jon said icily. "His honor—"

"—did not prevent him from fathering a bastard. Did it?"

Jon was cold with rage. "Can I go?"

**Jon alienating himself from his soon-to-be brothers of the Night’s Watch is probably not “honorable”; however, due to the circumstances, Jon further bonds with Ghost.

BTW/ I needed three blankets, two golden retrievers, and a sweatshirt with fleece lining to analyze this chapter, so successfully does Martin evoke the cold at the Wall. Shiver, shiver, brrrr!

PARALLELS BETWEEN BRAN’S 3EC VISION POV AND JON POV III

I realized as I was rereading Jon’s POV III that word patterns, choices, and phrases parallel those from Bran’s POV where he imagines himself falling. I will attempt to align these similarities in an organized fashion:

• Bran’s view is from a bird looking down on the world whereas Jon’s view is from the man of the Watch looking upward and onward at the base of the Wall.
  

Bran’s POV: “Bran looked down” and he sees “jagged blue white spires of ice” (163).

Jon’s POV III: “He [Jon] . . . lifted his eyes to the Wall” to see “a colossal blue white cliff that filled up half the sky” (183).

Bran POV: “He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal” (163).

Jon POV III: The Wall is described as “blazing blue and crystalline in the sunset” (183).

• Both Bran and Jon have a view of the dead:
  

Bran POV: “He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers, impaled upon their points” (163).

Jon POV: “the spirit of dead manned the parapets” (186).

• Both Bran and Jon must make a LIKE choice:
  

Bran POV: The 3EC bids that Bran make a choice: “Now, Bran,” the crow urged. “Choose. Fly or die” (163).

Jon POV: Donal Noye offers Jon an ultimatum too: “A long life or a short one, it’s up to you, Snow” (182).

• Both Bran and Jon are afraid:
  

Bran’s POV: Bran cries out, “afraid” and / “He was desperately afraid”.

Jon’s POV: Jon’s reflection when he looks upon the Wall: “the sight of it still gave him the shivers”

• Both Bran and Jon “see” something, or have an “insight” of the nature of evil, mayhap:
  

Bran’s POV: “to the curtain of light at the edge of the world . . . he looked deep into the heart of winter . . . “

“Why?” Bran said, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

The 3EC’s third eye was “full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down . . .” (163).

Jon’s POV: “when he stood beneath it and looked up, it made Jon dizzy. He could feel the great weight of all that ice pressing down about to topple, and somehow Jon knew if it fell, the world fell with it” (184) and / “This is the end of the world, it seemed to say” (183).

• Both Bran and Jon have tearful moments; however, their reasons for crying are motivated for quite different reasons. Bran cries from fear, and Jon cries as he reads Robb’s letter revealing that Bran will live:
  

Bran’s POV: “the heat of his tears burned his cheeks” (163).

Jon’s POV: “. . . the letters seemed to blur and run as he tried to read them. He realized he was crying . . . through his tears” Jon makes sense of Rob’s message.

Bran’s POV: “He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt.”

Jon’s POV: “ they finally spied Castle Black, its timbered keeps and stone towers looked like nothing more than a handful of toy blocks scattered on the snow, beneath the vast wall of ice. The ancient stronghold of the black brothers was no Winterfell, no true castle at all.”

Bran’s POV: “Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it.”

Jon’s POV: “As he stood outside the armory looking up, Jon felt almost as overwhelmed as he had that day on the kingsroad, when he'd seen it for the first time. The Wall was like that. Sometimes he could almost forget that it was there, the way you forgot about the sky or the earth underfoot, but there were other times when it seemed as if there was nothing else in the world.”

In Bran’s POV, the crow asks for corn, in Jon’s POV, the very first time he meets Lord Commander Jeor Mormont, his raven says “corn” three times. I think the “corn” recurring is Martin’s way of linking, especially for his readers, the 3EC and Mormont’s raven with the old gods, and eventually with Bloodraven.

Bran falls from a broken Tower in Winterfell, AND Jon chooses to sleep in a broken Tower at the Wall.

[nanother]

...

However, newborn pups, especially hungry newborn pups, make quite a racket. That was the biggest surprise to us after the litters were born! They whimper and cry from the minute they take their first breaths. While nursing, they continue to make all kinds of noises – we could hear our newborns if we were in the attic – and their whelping box was in the basement! So – it is more likely that the party would have heard the pups well before ever seeing them. But the horses clomping, reins jingling, wind blowing, and so on would have muted the pups’ whimpers.

...

That's strange - Bran didn't hear anything even as they were approaching them... were they already exhausted? Did they give up since the mother was not responding? Perhaps there's some instinct to preserve energy that kicked in. Or are (dire)wolves simply quieter than dogs?

****Time of Death: The mother direwolf may have been dead only a few hours. Recently, I lost two pets, one passing at home. Phantom died, and within an hour his eyes rolled back in his head and whitened, and he was stiff as a board. I had to take him to the vet this way – a nightmare. Now my Phantom weighed about 10 pounds, and he stiffened inside a warm house while on the stove surface. [Don’t ask – he liked to sleep on the stove!] So, exposed to the elements and weakened by the ordeal and probably in shock, the mother may have died within a three hour period, the earliest, I think.

What do you make of the maggots in the eye and the 'faint smell of corruption', though? I don't think any of that would appear within just a few hours, especially on a cold morning half-buried in snow... my first guess would be a festered wound, but, affecting the eyes of all parts of the body, that would present another set of problems (how did she receive such a wound in the first place and how did she survive long enough without her eyes). But then in any other case, I can't see how the pups could have stayed alive long enough for the corpse to start to rot :dunno:

“One day Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will belong to you.When this day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away.A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is” (16).

NOW, I will ADJUST Ned’s wording to fit Bran’s situation “presently” as we know it:

“One day, Bran, you will be a greenseer, sitting a weirwood throne of your own for the old gods of the North, and justice will belong to you.When that day comes, you must take no vengeance for personal reasons, but neither must you shirk your duties as part of the godhood.A god who hides behind the face of a weirwood tree soon forgets what death is.”

I couldn’t help it.I think these words of Ned’s are significant even in regards to Bran presently.

Yes, I think it's perfectly applicable to Bran's present situation and he'll hopefully remember them. Other words of Ned from that same chapter already helped him fly...

Cool observations about the amount of irony present in this chapter!

...

TRANSITIONS BETWEEN POV’S / CATELYN PRECEDING JON III

...

FIRST SENTENCE

The courtyard rang to the song of swords.

• The “song of swords” is poetic, evocative of a pleasing sound with “rang” and “song” – but in reality, the sounds in the courtyard offer dissonance, with “crunches” and “cries”
  

of pain.There is nothing musical in this “song”, which reminds us that there is nothing romantic in warfare except in the “songs” the bards sing.

It certainly fits with Westerosi combat being described in terms of 'dance'. Also, 'song' has so many meanings in asoiaf!

Interesting point about the omission of Ghost! He keeps him chained up because the other recruits are afraid of him (just like Sansa/Lady) - I'd think that if he's a thread to the other boys, it's because of Jon's attitude. It'll be interesting to see whether this pattern changes as he gets more comfortable with his companions.

And yes, he could have done without antagonising Thorne with his lack of silence (although, it might have been crucial in gaining the other boys' trust, hard to tell)

**I noticed that Martin describes Jon in terms of “coldness” until he learns of Bran awakening from his coma; then, Jon “warms” up to his fellow brothers, and that “iciness” in him seemingly melts. Note these marked examples:

“Under black wool, boiled leather, and mail, sweat trickled icily down Jon's chest as he pressed the attack.”

"Lord Eddard Stark was not a man to sleep with whores," Jon said icily. "His honor—"

"—did not prevent him from fathering a bastard. Did it?"

Jon was cold with rage. "Can I go?"

**Jon alienating himself from his soon-to-be brothers of the Night’s Watch is probably not “honorable”; however, due to the circumstances, Jon further bonds with Ghost.

• Both Bran and Jon have tearful moments; however, their reasons for crying are motivated for quite different reasons. Bran cries from fear, and Jon cries as he reads Robb’s letter revealing that Bran will live:
  

Bran’s POV: “the heat of his tears burned his cheeks” (163).

Jon’s POV: “. . . the letters seemed to blur and run as he tried to read them. He realized he was crying . . . through his tears” Jon makes sense of Rob’s message.

Actually, their reasons might be rather similar: Jon is afraid for Bran, and Bran is afraid for... himself? When he first looks down, yes. But when he looks into the heart of winter, I think he's afraid for more than just himself, possibly everyone he knows and cares about.

In Bran’s POV, the crow asks for corn, in Jon’s POV, the very first time he meets Lord Commander Jeor Mormont, his raven says “corn” three times. I think the “corn” recurring is Martin’s way of linking, especially for his readers, the 3EC and Mormont’s raven with the old gods, and eventually with Bloodraven.

Yes that makes a lot of sense!

[Frey family reunion]

Regarding the Wall: in my reread with an eye towards Norse mythology and specifically the Norse tale of Ragnorak (the Norse Acopcalypse), I think the Wall is an allusion to the Bifrost bridge. In Norse mythology the Bifrost bridge is a magical pathway or bridge from Midgard, the land of man, to Asgard, the realm of the gods. It's also loosley been translated to shimmering pathway. It's guarded by Heimball who can see great distances and blows his horn in warning when someone approaches Asgard. The bifrost bridge shatters during Ragnorak.

Tyrion's chapter during his visit to the Wall really hits the parallels home. While the Wall serves more as a barrier than a pathway, both serve as a divider between the land of man (wildings) to the land of the gods (the seven kingdoms). Tyrion's visit to the top of the Wall, makes you realize the Wall can also appear as a road of sorts when you're standing atop it. When he runs into Jon, bearing his spear and his horn, it's also apparent that the Night's Watch serves as the role of Heimball to sound their warning when an outsider approaches the seven kingdoms (the land of the gods).

As an aside, I think Tyrion is serving the role as Loki god of mischief. Loke is a child of giants, who was raised and lives as one of the gods. When Maester Aemon describes Tyrion as "a giant come among us, here at the end of the world." GRRM is providing us a clue of Tyrion's role.

[Little Wing]

Regarding the Wall: in my reread with an eye towards Norse mythology and specifically the Norse tale of Ragnorak (the Norse Acopcalypse), I think the Wall is an allusion to the Bifrost bridge. In Norse mythology the Bifrost bridge is a magical pathway or bridge from Midgard, the land of man, to Asgard, the realm of the gods. It's also loosley been translated to shimmering pathway. It's guarded by Heimball who can see great distances and blows his horn in warning when someone approaches Asgard. The bifrost bridge shatters during Ragnorak.

Tyrion's chapter during his visit to the Wall really hits the parallels home. While the Wall serves more as a barrier than a pathway, both serve as a divider between the land of man (wildings) to the land of the gods (the seven kingdoms). Tyrion's visit to the top of the Wall, makes you realize the Wall can also appear as a road of sorts when you're standing atop it. When he runs into Jon, bearing his spear and his horn, it's also apparent that the Night's Watch serves as the role of Heimball to sound their warning when an outsider approaches the seven kingdoms (the land of the gods).

As an aside, I think Tyrion is serving the role as Loki god of mischief. Loke is a child of giants, who was raised and lives as one of the gods. When Maester Aemon describes Tyrion as "a giant come among us, here at the end of the world." GRRM is providing us a clue of Tyrion's role.

I like this!

Would you mind re-posting this on Heresy? Not all of the heretics visit this thread and I'm sure they'd love to discuss this.

[nanother]

Regarding the Wall: in my reread with an eye towards Norse mythology and specifically the Norse tale of Ragnorak (the Norse Acopcalypse), I think the Wall is an allusion to the Bifrost bridge. In Norse mythology the Bifrost bridge is a magical pathway or bridge from Midgard, the land of man, to Asgard, the realm of the gods. It's also loosley been translated to shimmering pathway. It's guarded by Heimball who can see great distances and blows his horn in warning when someone approaches Asgard. The bifrost bridge shatters during Ragnorak.

Tyrion's chapter during his visit to the Wall really hits the parallels home. While the Wall serves more as a barrier than a pathway, both serve as a divider between the land of man (wildings) to the land of the gods (the seven kingdoms). Tyrion's visit to the top of the Wall, makes you realize the Wall can also appear as a road of sorts when you're standing atop it. When he runs into Jon, bearing his spear and his horn, it's also apparent that the Night's Watch serves as the role of Heimball to sound their warning when an outsider approaches the seven kingdoms (the land of the gods).

As an aside, I think Tyrion is serving the role as Loki god of mischief. Loke is a child of giants, who was raised and lives as one of the gods. When Maester Aemon describes Tyrion as "a giant come among us, here at the end of the world." GRRM is providing us a clue of Tyrion's role.

That's an incredibly cool parallel! It's strange, though, that the lands of men and gods are sort of switched. You equate the land beyond the wall with 'men' because of the wildlings. But in ASoIaF terms it's actually the land of gods: the refuge of the Singers (and thus the Old Gods) and the home of the Others also known as 'cold gods', whereas below the Wall are the 'realms of Men'. The whole point the NW arc was getting at that the wildlings are Men, same as the people of the Seven Kingdoms so they belong in the same 'realm' even if they happen to live beyond the Wall.

[nenya~]

Jon III (Chapter 19)

We'll lear from Bran much later that the Nightfort was the first castle abandoned, 200 years ago, when a new, smaller castle was built instead. So, while the Watch was severely weakened even back then, there had been a rapid decline from a state where it still made sense to replace a castle instead of just abandoning it, to 16 of the 19 castles being derelict and even parts of the ones still occupied falling to ruin... rather strange, considering the Watch existed for thousands of years, and even in the many hundreds of years since the Andal invasion (when it would make sense for most of the realm to lose interest in the Watch, them being a First Men organisation) it didn't decline as badly as in the last 200...

The Watch seemed to start declining after Aegon's conquest. The Watch had 10,000 members then, but by the time Queen Alysanne visits (100 years later?), they didn't even have enough people to man the Nightfort.

Also, Jon notes that "Once Castle Black had housed five thousand fighting men with all their horses and servants and weapons." How many men could have been in the NW total, for there to be 5,000 at Castle Black? I'm not really sure how many people they would need to man the other castles, but with 10,000 that would probably leave less than 300 at each of the other castles. I wonder how long ago it was that they had 5,000 at Castle Black and how strong they were at its height.

Castle Black had no godswood, only a small sept and a drunken septon, but Jon could not find it in him to pray to any gods, old or new. If they were real, he thought, they were as cruel and implacable as winter.

Is it weird that there isn't a godswood at Castle Black? It was speculated that Castle Black was built with Andal influence because it has a sept, and I think the timeline matches up as well. The Nightfort is said to be twice as old, so Castle Black would probably have been built 4,000 years ago at the earliest (if the Nightfort is 8,000 years old). Younger if you accept a more condensed timeline, but either way it was built after the Andals arrival. The closest godswood is north of the Wall, but why isn't there one to the south?

We also see Jon not having faith in any gods here, but when Bran wakes up he claims the "gods gave him back."

And Arya . . . he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had . . .

It's a bit ironic that the only children with the Stark look are the outcasts of their Stark family.

The courtyard rang to the song of swords.

• The “song of swords” is poetic, evocative of a pleasing sound with “rang” and “song” – but in reality, the sounds in the courtyard offer dissonance, with “crunches” and “cries”
  

of pain.There is nothing musical in this “song”, which reminds us that there is nothing romantic in warfare except in the “songs” the bards sing.

• The “song of swords” reminds me of the title The Storm of Swords.
  
• Martin leads us into this “song of swords” where we will see Jon, several of the new recruits, and the unpleasant Ser Alliser Thorne, the master-at-arms conducting this musical duel between Jon and Grenn
  

A further point on the dancing/singing theme is that in a earlier chapter Robb refers to the wolves as singing and that he can distinguish each wolf. So they each have their own voice, but Ghost is mute and was referred to as "the one with no voice". So Ghost doesn't "sing" with the other wolves (He does prick up his ears and listen when he hears other wolves are howling)

But Ghost does howl at one point in acok (Sorry I'm getting a little ahead here):

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

And right after that is when Bran talks to Jon through Ghost. So the one time Ghost uses his voice and cries out to his brothers, Bran/Summer actually answers. Could it have been Ghost/Jon reaching out to the others what prompted Bran to talk to Jon in the first place? I wonder if Bran heard the cry first because right after Ghost howls, Bran replies with "Jon?"

[nanother]

The Watch seemed to start declining after Aegon's conquest. The Watch had 10,000 members then, but by the time Queen Alysanne visits (100 years later?), they didn't even have enough people to man the Nightfort.

Actually, that distributed between 18 castles means ~550/castle on average. That's about as much as CB has now, and that's not enough to keep it from falling to ruin.

Also, I think I found the reference (it's when M Aemon tells Jon about Black Harren's brother, right?) and technically it says 10000 swords so I'm not sure whether that includes stewards etc. If not then the total headcount might be significantly higher. Still, the 5000 fighting men at CB must have been long before that...

Castle Black had no godswood, only a small sept and a drunken septon, but Jon could not find it in him to pray to any gods, old or new. If they were real, he thought, they were as cruel and implacable as winter.

Is it weird that there isn't a godswood at Castle Black? It was speculated that Castle Black was built with Andal influence because it has a sept, and I think the timeline matches up as well. The Nightfort is said to be twice as old, so Castle Black would probably have been built 4,000 years ago at the earliest (if the Nightfort is 8,000 years old). Younger if you accept a more condensed timeline, but either way it was built after the Andals arrival. The closest godswood is north of the Wall, but why isn't there one to the south?

It is certainly odd. It'd be useful to know whether the other castles have godswoods. Nightfort certainly doesn't seem to, although it does have a weirwood gate and a young faceless weirwood growing nearby. It's possible that by the time CB was built, it seemed safe enough to go beyound the Wall to pray, so they really thought they didn't need one, but it also could be Andal influence. Or perhaps there are just no weirwood trees anywhere along the Wall at a reasonable distance south :dunno:

It's a bit ironic that the only children with the Stark look are the outcasts of their Stark family.

Yeah, isn't it? Especially seeing that it was the southron ambitions that ultimately ruined them. Even Bran, who ended up going North, only did so because his dreams of knighthood and then his home were ruined...

Good call on the wolves singing!

But Ghost does howl at one point in acok (Sorry I'm getting a little ahead here):

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

And right after that is when Bran talks to Jon through Ghost. So the one time Ghost uses his voice and cries out to his brothers, Bran/Summer actually answers. Could it have been Ghost/Jon reaching out to the others what prompted Bran to talk to Jon in the first place? I wonder if Bran heard the cry first because right after Ghost howls, Bran replies with "Jon?"

That's certainly how I interpret it. However, I also think that Ghost is dreaming at that point, so it's not necessarily a physical sound he makes (I suspect it's similar to his calling out to Jon in Bran I)

[Melifeather]

Bran’s POV: “to the curtain of light at the edge of the world . . . he looked deep into the heart of winter . . . “

“Why?” Bran said, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

The 3EC’s third eye was “full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down . . .” (163).

Jon’s POV: “when he stood beneath it and looked up, it made Jon dizzy. He could feel the great weight of all that ice pressing down about to topple, and somehow Jon knew if it fell, the world fell with it” (184) and / “This is the end of the world, it seemed to say” (183).

I am beginning to wonder if the "curtain of light at the edge of the world" is actually the Wall? If bringing down the Wall is the "end of the world", or an Armageddon for Westeros, then the "light" could be symbolic of a sort of realization by Jon and Bran that the Wall needs to come down. Something along the same lines as "the dawning of the Age of Aquarius", which we discussed many moons ago, which is the age of enlightenment, and the connection to Arya.

The Watch seemed to start declining after Aegon's conquest. The Watch had 10,000 members then, but by the time Queen Alysanne visits (100 years later?), they didn't even have enough people to man the Nightfort.

Also, Jon notes that "Once Castle Black had housed five thousand fighting men with all their horses and servants and weapons." How many men could have been in the NW total, for there to be 5,000 at Castle Black? I'm not really sure how many people they would need to man the other castles, but with 10,000 that would probably leave less than 300 at each of the other castles. I wonder how long ago it was that they had 5,000 at Castle Black and how strong they were at its height.

Castle Black had no godswood, only a small sept and a drunken septon, but Jon could not find it in him to pray to any gods, old or new. If they were real, he thought, they were as cruel and implacable as winter.

Is it weird that there isn't a godswood at Castle Black? It was speculated that Castle Black was built with Andal influence because it has a sept, and I think the timeline matches up as well. The Nightfort is said to be twice as old, so Castle Black would probably have been built 4,000 years ago at the earliest (if the Nightfort is 8,000 years old). Younger if you accept a more condensed timeline, but either way it was built after the Andals arrival. The closest godswood is north of the Wall, but why isn't there one to the south?

If I remember correctly, there's a weirwood tree growing up through the well in the kitchen of the Nightfort that reaches up through a skylight?

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

And right after that is when Bran talks to Jon through Ghost. So the one time Ghost uses his voice and cries out to his brothers, Bran/Summer actually answers. Could it have been Ghost/Jon reaching out to the others what prompted Bran to talk to Jon in the first place? I wonder if Bran heard the cry first because right after Ghost howls, Bran replies with "Jon?"

Your phrasing now makes me wonder if it was actually Jon calling out to his siblings and not Ghost?

I read a post on Heresy regarding a quote by GRRM regarding the small, but still important fact that Jon couldn't communicate with Ghost through the Wall. What do you suppose GRRM has in store for that little detail?

[nanother]

The curtain of light can't possibly be the Wall! It's missing from that quote, but the context is that he's looking past the Wall, further and further north. So it has to be something else (northern light with a twist to it?).

[Little Wing]

Maybe the curtain of light is some power source of the Others? Their HQ or something :dunno: Maybe they emerged from that light and through it they have to pass to return from where they came.. It's a portal! :o

[evita mgfs]

That's strange - Bran didn't hear anything even as they were approaching them... were they already exhausted? Did they give up since the mother was not responding? Perhaps there's some instinct to preserve energy that kicked in. Or are (dire)wolves simply quieter than dogs?

What do you make of the maggots in the eye and the 'faint smell of corruption', though? I don't think any of that would appear within just a few hours, especially on a cold morning half-buried in snow... my first guess would be a festered wound, but, affecting the eyes of all parts of the body, that would present another set of problems (how did she receive such a wound in the first place and how did she survive long enough without her eyes). But then in any other case, I can't see how the pups could have stayed alive long enough for the corpse to start to rot :dunno:

Yes, I think it's perfectly applicable to Bran's present situation and he'll hopefully remember them. Other words of Ned from that same chapter already helped him fly...

Cool observations about the amount of irony present in this chapter!

It certainly fits with Westerosi combat being described in terms of 'dance'. Also, 'song' has so many meanings in asoiaf!

Interesting point about the omission of Ghost! He keeps him chained up because the other recruits are afraid of him (just like Sansa/Lady) - I'd think that if he's a thread to the other boys, it's because of Jon's attitude. It'll be interesting to see whether this pattern changes as he gets more comfortable with his companions.

And yes, he could have done without antagonising Thorne with his lack of silence (although, it might have been crucial in gaining the other boys' trust, hard to tell)

Actually, their reasons might be rather similar: Jon is afraid for Bran, and Bran is afraid for... himself? When he first looks down, yes. But when he looks into the heart of winter, I think he's afraid for more than just himself, possibly everyone he knows and cares about.

Yes that makes a lot of sense!

Thanks, Nanother.

About the maggots in the mother wolf, I just wanted to point out that three hours would be the earliest time frame for her death, when comparing it to my dead kitty. He hardened so quickly, and I do know from CSI that the blow flies come rather quickly, but I cannot recall how quickly. I quit watching most of network television when I found Martin and Westeros. But I always thought rigor took longer to set in than one hour - that is why I shared my personal experience, sort of as a gauge. Even when we bred retrievers, not any puppy book prepared us for some of the things I mentioned, like the NOISE they make - and mother standing to deliver.

I also do not know about the mother pushing Ghost from her litter. He is not a "runt" - for he is seemingly thriving. Dogs do not see in color, so I do not know that she would have nudged Ghost away from the others to reject him as not belonging. But, hey, I bred golden retrievers, not wolves. I also bred tropical fish for years, and they are famous for gobbling up their own young! So it is the nature of the beast.

I will reference the golden's "soft bite" - compare to Nymeria helping Arya pack for King's Landing, carrying silks to her trunk. Now, my goldens, even with their soft bite, could not have carried silk across a room in their mouths without causing a snag or tear.

I appreciate all your fine thoughts - I am new to the "heretics", and it took me lots of courage to post - Little Wing encouraged me. So I am trying to stay on your premise in offering up ideas.

There is something that is really bothering me, and I do not know where to go to find an answer. I am trying to wait until you get to the POV where Robb hoists an elk onto his gelding, all by himself with no aid from another. Either the old gods and their powers through Grey Wind assist him, or something else is going on. [sometimes I think I have a great idea, and it is just a dud - already discussed and analyzed elsewhere!]

Thanks again for responding, and great job! You did a fine, thoughtful analysis. [i know how long it takes to present a thorough analysis, so I appreciate your time and devotion!]

[nenya~]

Actually, that distributed between 18 castles means ~550/castle on average. That's about as much as CB has now, and that's not enough to keep it from falling to ruin.

Also, I think I found the reference (it's when M Aemon tells Jon about Black Harren's brother, right?) and technically it says 10000 swords so I'm not sure whether that includes stewards etc. If not then the total headcount might be significantly higher. Still, the 5000 fighting men at CB must have been long before that...

Yeah, your right, and since you mentioned the swords, I didn't even notice the 5,000 number at Castle Black is also fighting men, so it must've been much more than that. And a long time ago. So the NW has probably been slowly declining for a long time, but it wasn't until they abandoned the Nightfort that we saw such a rapid decline.

That's certainly how I interpret it. However, I also think that Ghost is dreaming at that point, so it's not necessarily a physical sound he makes (I suspect it's similar to his calling out to Jon in Bran I)

Sometimes it's just hard to tell if it's dream or reality!! lol

If I remember correctly, there's a weirwood tree growing up through the well in the kitchen of the Nightfort that reaches up through a skylight?

Yeah, that's the only one I can think of, and I don't even know if any of the NW members know about it. Is there a weirwood near Mole's Town? I remember wildlings putting faces on trees that weren't even weirwoods after they came south of the Wall.

Your phrasing now makes me wonder if it was actually Jon calling out to his siblings and not Ghost?

Well, Ghost I suppose, but Jon is Ghost and Ghost is Jon, so I guess it's all the same either way.

I read a post on Heresy regarding a quote by GRRM regarding the small, but still important fact that Jon couldn't communicate with Ghost through the Wall. What do you suppose GRRM has in store for that little detail?

Besides showing us that Jon and probably others can't warg across the Wall, I have no idea.

I also do not know about the mother pushing Ghost from her litter. He is not a "runt" - for he is seemingly thriving. Dogs do not see in color, so I do not know that she would have nudged Ghost away from the others to reject him as not belonging. But, hey, I bred golden retrievers, not wolves. I also bred tropical fish for years, and they are famous for gobbling up their own young! So it is the nature of the beast.

I've wondered about this as well. Ned thinks the other pups pushed Ghost away, but colorblindness aside, they still have their eyes closed and can't see Ghost anyway. Unless, they just "felt" that he was different, like how it's noted that Ghost "has no voice." As to the colorblindness, I think when the Stark children have their wolf dreams, they would've mentioned noted that. Or maybe GRRM just never thought about it.

I appreciate all your fine thoughts - I am new to the "heretics", and it took me lots of courage to post - Little Wing encouraged me. So I am trying to stay on your premise in offering up ideas.

New ideas are always good (even if people don't comment on them, I'm sure everyone still reads them and wishes for like button :D) I'm new to this thread as well and had to play catch up! I've tried to read your re-read thread, but I feel as if I could never catch up so I like that you post some of those ideas here!

[evita mgfs]

Yeah, your right, and since you mentioned the swords, I didn't even notice the 5,000 number at Castle Black is also fighting men, so it must've been much more than that. And a long time ago. So the NW has probably been slowly declining for a long time, but it wasn't until they abandoned the Nightfort that we saw such a rapid decline.

SNIP

I've wondered about this as well. Ned thinks the other pups pushed Ghost away, but colorblindness aside, they still have their eyes closed and can't see Ghost anyway. Unless, they just "felt" that he was different, like how it's noted that Ghost "has no voice." As to the colorblindness, I think when the Stark children have their wolf dreams, they would've mentioned noted that. Or maybe GRRM just never thought about it.

New ideas are always good (even if people don't comment on them, I'm sure everyone still reads them and wishes for like button :D) I'm new to this thread as well and had to play catch up! I've tried to read your re-read thread, but I feel as if I could never catch up so I like that you post some of those ideas here!

NENYA: THANKS FOR RESPONDING. Sometimes in threads, posters can be cruel, so I tread lightly. But everyone here has been very supportive and far from "cruel" - I was once called an "assassin lover" for a post in support of Arya.

For some reason, I think Martin does know about dogs and breeding - and he made choices accordingly. Ghost is silent - he wants the readers to make a connection with Jon and Ghost and their telepathic connection in Bran's first POV. Ghost is also SILENT because if he had wandered away from the litter, his cries would have been heard by his mother - or others. The entire reason for building a "whelping box" is so that the pups are safeguarded and enclosed with mother for the first few weeks. They cannot wander off. But even in the box, pups get disoriented - and we always "heard" the screams of a pup that lost mother before we would even see the pup off in a corner on the other side of the box!

Now, the pups have a "feeding frenzy" - and we did often intervene to make sure each pup had a nipple. We had one pup we later nicknamed PIG because he would finish at one teat, then push away the pup next to him to get his teat, and continue down the line, hogging all the milk.

We also had one pup born with a cleft palate, and she was not thriving; but our dame never gave her the boot. She worried about her smallest pup. [We had to have the pup with the cleft palate put down - and our female Jasmine looked for her lost pup for the remainder of her life. ] Jasmine never forgot the pup we took from her, and she often would go down to the basement and scratch at the carpetting where her whelping box had been, still looking for the pup she lost. But, again, I bred Goldens, and a nicer, more loving breed I do not know of - we had attentive, nurturing, protective mothers.

On our Direwolf thread, I believe ALIA OF THE KNIFE offered up a really good theory about why Jon is gifted Ghost. She said that in some tropes, the hero is given a "test" - and in passing the test, he wins the prize. [i am simplifying, of course]. So Jon, by sacrificing his own personal desires for a pup, convinces Ned that he does not want a pup so that his brothers and sisters each have a direwolf. Jon's reward is the "pick of the litter" - well, I think so, anyway.

This leads into the old gods - or fate or destiny - versus "free will". Jon makes his decisions on his own, before he is guided to Ghost. Similarly, Bran chooses to disobey his parents and climb; as a result, he meets up with misfortune when encountering the fornicators in the broken tower. The old gods then presented Bran with a test of sorts: fly or die. The force that is the old gods intervened to save Bran from death, but ultimately Bran makes the decisions; likewise, Jon makes the decision to turn back for Ghost after "hearing" the pup's silent plea, with the help of the old gods and their powers, methinks.

I hope that makes sense!