The role of Braavos in tWoW

[Arya_Ghostface]

I don't see the Braavosi against Dany. Both because she is against slavery (a Valyrian against slavery is that a first?) and because the IB will support anyone with a chance to pay the debts back. I am convinced that the only language the IB speaks is money, and they are seriously pissed off that Cersei stopped paying the debts.

Veltigar I'm not sure I'm following you, why would we root for the bankers against the FM? Also, if the FM did not kill the people the IB expects money from, I don't see why they should be at odds.

HouseBluth I agree. I don't think Jaqen is in Oldtown to give a gift to someone, I think he's doing work for whatever the FM are trying to achieve.

[cuendillar]

They back up Stannis that's true, but the Bravosi aren't that affraid of dragons (they sided with Aegon against Volantis remember) + Dany has the whole I abolish slavery vibe to her. That's more important to the Bravosi.

A better argument against Daenerean support is that the Iron Bank definitely desires stability, both internally and externally. War may be good for some business, but it greatly increases the credit risk. There's just no guarantee that the debtor will pay back. Daenerys, good intentions notwithstanding, has destabilized Meereen rather significantly. The Iron Bank must know that she wouldn't do the same thing to Westeros before they can throw any support behind her.

[Veltigar]

Veltigar I'm not sure I'm following you, why would we root for the bankers against the FM? Also, if the FM did not kill the people the IB expects money from, I don't see why they should be at odds.

We would root for the bankers if the grand FM conspiracy theory turns out to be true. I don't know how many people here are familiar with that one but it goes like this (simplified of course). FM destroyed Valyria and Hardhome (Hardhome was the test case) to pave the way for the victory of the others, because if the Others win everybody will get the gift.

The FM and the IB would be at odds if the FM start killing people and causing wars, which would leave there debtors without smallfolk to work for them and spending their coin on soldiers instead of on the repayment of their debts.

[Arya_Ghostface]

We would root for the bankers if the grand FM conspiracy theory turns out to be true. I don't know how many people here are familiar with that one but it goes like this (simplified of course). FM destroyed Valyria and Hardhome (Hardhome was the test case) to pave the way for the victory of the others, because if the Others win everybody will get the gift.

The FM and the IB would be at odds if the FM start killing people and causing wars, which would leave there debtors without smallfolk to work for them and spending their coin on soldiers instead of on the repayment of their debts.

Ah I've read that theory some time ago and I remember I dismissed it as rather impossible. You see, that would place the FM in a position of power that pretty much no other group we've seen so far would have, and it wold disturb this odd kind of balance that we see in the books. Nobody is all-powerful, not even the dragons, who come with their own set of disadvantages and problems. So yeah, I had forgotten about that theory. I also don't like the idea of the FM wanting to give the gift to everybody because that would make their existence obsolete. As for the IB, what would the pont of money be if no one, not even them, survives?

[Veltigar]

Ah I've read that theory some time ago and I remember I dismissed it as rather impossible. You see, that would place the FM in a position of power that pretty much no other group we've seen so far would have, and it wold disturb this odd kind of balance that we see in the books. Nobody is all-powerful, not even the dragons, who come with their own set of disadvantages and problems. So yeah, I had forgotten about that theory. I also don't like the idea of the FM wanting to give the gift to everybody because that would make their existence obsolete. As for the IB, what would the pont of money be if no one, not even them, survives?

I too don't believe that theory, but it has a decent amount of supporters, so I'm not totally dismissing the possibility.

Also I don't get why killing everybody would make their existence obsolete. It would be the fullfillment of their destiny, the ultimate service to their deity IMO.

My take on the IB is that it's funded by the FM, but I don't believe that there connection is 'active'. I guess the FM gave the money to the original bankers as some sort of service to the city (a thank you to the people of Braavos for letting them stay there). The IB developed further and became an institution of her own. The people who control it know are regular bankers who's only goal is to get as much gold as is possible. The IB does not want anything to do with the FM schemes (in the FMconspiracy theory) and if they were to figure out what the FM are really after, they would come in action to destroy the order.

[aryagonnakill]

The IB wont support Dany because there is no way she will repay robert and joffreys debts.

[Veltigar]

The IB wont support Dany because there is no way she will repay robert and joffreys debts.

Wow, impressive how you based that claim on absolutely nothing without going for anything logical.

[facelessPAman]

I don't think the IB and the FM work hand in glove. I also don't think the FM support the Others, because the Others seem fundamentally opposed to humans. The FM seem to only want to give 'the gift' rather than wreck the whole world. But that supposition is based on what little we know about the Others.

I think Braavos is making a power play for the Iron Throne. They (Braavosi) live on a very dangerous continent, so securing a friendly Iron Throne would provide them with a very powerful backer if things go badly for Braavos (for instance, if the other free cities allied against them).

[Lady of Dragonstone]

My personal opinion (and it's just speculation of course) is that their motive is making as much money as possible, meaning they want to bring back stability to Westeros under a ruler of their making who will steadily pay back the debts to the IB, and in the meantime have someone from the IB in the king's court to influence the king's decisions in ways that are advantageous to Braavos.

As for the FM, I like to think they are a separate entity to the IB, but they are in some kind of alliance. So I think the presence of the FM in KL and Oldtown is for a different purpose which I can't begin to fathom, but if needed by the IB, someone will be on hand to present a gift to whoever needs to be out of the way. As for Balon, I really think that it was only a contract: Euron hired a FM to kill Balon and paid a price for it and that was it.

I completely agree with you. The IB is supporting Stannis now because in general, he's honest, up-front, and does have some honor. The IB most definitely wants their money back; I'm sure it can't be a small sum. I wouldn't be surprised if they had some other motive, though. But what? That's the question, for me.

A good explanation for having a FM at the Citadel: perhaps the maesters talk amongst themselves about the goings-on between the lords of Westeros. Afterall, maesters do control pretty much all the raven communication of Westeros. We know that maesters themselves are politically inclined towards certain beliefs. So, maybe it's a way for FM or IB to see what's truly going on. As for what Jaqen/Pate was looking for, that's a different ballgame entirely.

Which begs the question of "where does all that money the FM get go?" Well, if the FM and IB are one and the same, then the IB gets the money that the FM take in, and the FM serve as the enforcers of the IB's rules and regulations vis-a-vis debts

I really like this idea a lot.

On a side note, I'd love to see Arya come into play here somehow.

[Arya_Ghostface]

I completely agree with you. The IB is supporting Stannis now because in general, he's honest, up-front, and does have some honor. The IB most definitely wants their money back; I'm sure it can't be a small sum. I wouldn't be surprised if they had some other motive, though. But what? That's the question, for me.

A good explanation for having a FM at the Citadel: perhaps the maesters talk amongst themselves about the goings-on between the lords of Westeros. Afterall, maesters do control pretty much all the raven communication of Westeros. We know that maesters themselves are politically inclined towards certain beliefs. So, maybe it's a way for FM or IB to see what's truly going on. As for what Jaqen/Pate was looking for, that's a different ballgame entirely.

Thanks :)

Yes Stannis has everything in his favour, except his inability to make people like him. I am not super fond of the guy, because I truly believe he should not have punished Davos so harshly after the smuggler saved his life, he should be fairer to Ned Stark and, most importantly, he trusts Mel too much. But if I were the IB I, too, would consider him the safest bet.

Ohhh the FM spying on the maesters now that's new. I am quite curious to see what game the maesters (or, more likely, the archmaesters) are playing, and it could be the FM that find out and give us the answer. If I remember correctly, the maesters had a more or less anti-dragon and pro-Seven agenda, had they not?

I love Arya, I wish she ends up playing a very important role in the story, but I don't think that role will involve the Bank.

[aryagonnakill]

Wow, impressive how you based that claim on absolutely nothing without going for anything logical.

Other than logic ya your right, I didn't know I had to spell things out for adults. Stannis is paying back Robert loans because thats what's right and legal, if he is Roberts heir he owes his debts. He is only paying Joffreys because he is desperate. Danaerys paying back Roberts debts would actually acknowledge his claim to the thrown, and be ridiculous considering everything she has ever said about Robert, Ned, and Jon Aryn. If your an American this event is actually specified in our constitution, the U.S. gov. will not repay back any debts incurred by a rebellion or something to that extent. Especially now that they had backed Stannis, your saying their going to switch to her and charge her his debts too? Ridiculous.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

Arya_Ghostface: To answer your question, the maesters are very much anti-dragon and it is implicated in the books (ADWD, I believe) that they may have had a hand in the elimination of the dragons, or at least were making efforts to do so. This completely aligns so far with what we know of the Braavosi; they dislike the dragons also.

As far as religion goes, I think the maesters are much less likely to take to Stannis because of his red god. That may be the only thing the Lannister and Tyrell agenda have going for them at the moment. I think it's likely that the new High Septon will take on a more political agenda himself. And yes, the maesters are pro-Seven. The Braavosi are tolerant of all gods, as far as I can see, although most ultimately answer to the Many Faced God.

And in response to the post above me: I think that Daenerys would pay back the IT's debts. If she wants the throne, she is responsible for all it entails. Daenerys paying back the throne's debts is also what is right and legal. It is not the actual man Robert Baratheon who owed the debts per se, it is the person who sat the IT and held the responsibility of governing the kingdoms who owes this debt. So in other words, it is the kingdom's debt, not Robert Baratheon's debt.

Edit: Added to my post.

[bemused]

I think Braavos probably is ruled by a secret triumvirate made up of the 3 institutions of IB , FM, and the office of the Sealord.

Something along these lines:

The FM , using their special skillset developed as assassins , provide intelligence for the state .. and the wealth garnered from their role as assassins , over hundreds of years , probably founded the IB, built the city, bought the timber to build their navy , their trading vessels , etc.

( The FM do not just want to kill as many people as they can ..?!? .. Death always gets his due anyway. They simply act as Death's agents , now and then . Their price structure proves that they believe contracting their services should not be lightly undertaken , which on the whole , may actually preserve life.)

The IB covers all matters financial , most importantly , international finance , creating and maintaining influence ..and stability for Braavos .

The Sealord is the outward face of the state, governing trade, defense , political alliances , etc..

I don't know if FM are assigned to the other two branches on a permanent basis , but I definitely think the links must be strong enough that FM could be seconded to either of the other branches, as needed. Maybe this requires agreement by the other 2 of 3 branches ... but surely, reaching consensus would not be difficult in uncertain times.

As with Volantis, this stucture is designed to ensure no one leader or institution can lead the state in a perilous direction. At least two branches must be in agreement for any course of action to proceed. Of course there must be internal power struggles or course corrections from time to time. ( I'm feeling one of these must have resulted in Dany and Viserys' ouster from the house with the red door... but I don't want to go off on a tangent..)

Secrecy has always been Braavos' friend..it allowed their founders to escape Valyria .Secrecy allowed the state to grow and flourish without fear of invasion or reprisals, for hundreds of years and now, after revealing their location , it allows them to stay abreast of any threats that may arise .

As a state their main interests would be in their own survival , and in stability in the world at large. They are entirely dependent on trade , the more robust the better. They're against slavery , but not necessarily against dragons .. I'd guess, depending on how many there are , who controls them and to what purpose. They were on the same side as Aegon the conqueror in the effort against Volantine expansionism.

So I don't think it's entirely clear what the Alchemist/Pate is in Oldtown for. Dragons in the hands of someone with an agressive stance toward them would be a threat,but in the hands of an ally ..maybe not so much. Certainly a very long winter and the chaos it would bring must be seen as a grave threat as well.

[Ice Turtle]

snip

like this

[Nelapsi]

As far as religion goes, I think the maesters are much less likely to take to Stannis because of his red god. That may be the only thing the Lannister and Tyrell agenda have going for them at the moment. I think it's likely that the new High Septon will take on a more political agenda himself. And yes, the maesters are pro-Seven. The Braavosi are tolerant of all gods, as far as I can see, although most ultimately answer to the Many Faced God.

It's all about magic IMO. The 7 are the only gods who haven't 'proved' their existence somehow, whereas the red god has tons of magically-gifted people at his service. I don't know what to think about Braavos and magic, or, more on point, about the FM and magic. They may use it, they may not. So it's hard to establish if they might work along with the maesters or not, no matter what they are up to.

[Arya_Ghostface]

I think Braavos probably is ruled by a secret triumvirate made up of the 3 institutions of IB , FM, and the office of the Sealord.

Yup, sounds about right.

Of course there must be internal power struggles or course corrections from time to time. ( I'm feeling one of these must have resulted in Dany and Viserys' ouster from the house with the red door... but I don't want to go off on a tangent..)

I have been thinking more about Daenerys after a recent re-read of her last chapter in aDwD. Quaithe's prophecy says that to go forward Daenerys must go back. What if that 'going back' just means backtracking? She started from Dragonstone, fled to Braavos, left Braavos to wander the Free Cities, ended up in Pentos, married a Dothraki, crossed the Dothraki Sea, reached Qarth and then Slaver's Bay. She is now back in the Dothraki Sea. Could this mean that she will somehow end up in the Free cities, and eventually Braavos? Will she look again at the house with the red door? And who could she meet there? Arya? Justin Massey? And will Braavos be the last stepping stone before Dragonstone and Westeros?

I still believe Braavos will play a massibe role one way or the other. I would simply love to have Daenerys there, it would mix things up greatly.

[Napyura]

Crackpot "warning"

Braavos provokes Daenerys when she hears the news of them supporting Stannis Baratheon. But 2 books are prolly not enough for Dany to fight Braavos and reach Westeros in meantime.

[TheGovernor]

I know its a different thread but someone mentioned the whole FM conspiracy and how they want to spread the gift to everyone. This does ignore all the rigid rules about being precise and not just killing on whim anything and anyone in sight. The others don't seem to be too picky about who they kill (besides newborn boys). I'm almost certain that the FM and IB have some sort of informal recognition of each other. Both are braavosi institutes which command respect from Braavosi and it wouldn't be farfetched to think FM views on slavery are similar to the standard Braavosi and thus the IB (remember how the Braavosi don't trade with anyone who deals in slavery, which is why Illyrio calls his slaves 'servants' when Tyrion mentions this). I'm pretty sure Braavos and the FM will be on Daenarys' side and I would love to see Arya meeting some dragons.

[Arya_Ghostface]

Yeah I find it impossible that the FM just want to kill everyone. They wouldn't be so strict with their rules (not killing someone you know, making it incredibly costly for someone to request the gift for someone else etc) if that were the case. They definately appear more refined that the Others, and most people in aSoIaF in fact, which is why they are so fascinating, to me at least.

In fact, I think Braavos is the most modern of the places in the aSoIaF world. They accept and respect all religions and all professions, they don't tolerate slavery, they have modern-er structures (an aquaduct!), a bank that operates with very similar standards to today, an economy based on trade more than agriculture, and a quite different social structure to most of the other cities, meaning that pretty much everyone has a chance to make a decent living there. All in all, Braavos could be called the Renaissance to Westeros' Medieval times.

[Arya kiddin']

Bravos is just home to FM and IB. I don't think there is any more to it than that.