Lemore of Norvos?

[jarl the climber]

Out of curiousity are we given an approximation of Lemores height? Arrianne is said to be about 5'2" and is said to resemble her mother in this regard according to Areo Hotah. Her height could bolster or disprove this theory.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Out of curiousity are we given an approximation of Lemores height? Arrianne is said to be about 5'2" and is said to resemble her mother in this regard according to Areo Hotah. Her height could bolster or disprove this theory.

I don't think that Lemore's height was mentioned.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Crackpot: Lemore is Mellario, who is also Tyene Sand's mother :eek:

I just saw it. I would loved it but then 2 children in the same year with different fathers (who are brothers)? :drunk:

[reyneofcastamere]

Septa Lemore=Ashara. But what if Aegon=Ned and Ashara's son, Ashara is also described as having violet eyes. Tyrion would only have been 9 at the sack of King's landin. Varys just needs a capable and reliable puppet rather than a mythical warrior. Jon Cottingham is that desperate to redeem himself to his lost love that he could have been told that a boy was Rhaegar's son and he would have believed them.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

maybe so, but this thread is for Mellario=Septa Lemore. Not about who Septa Lemore is in general.

[raegal_targaryen]

if faehon is real than she is probably ashara dayne, if not she is another person we dont know much about yet. its unlikely that its melario of norvos. mellario sounds like a dudes name-

[Jon's Queen Consort]

if faehon is real than she is probably ashara dayne, if not she is another person we dont know much about yet. its unlikely that its melario of norvos. mellario sounds like a dudes name-

But this is a thread about Mellario being Lemore not Ashara also

mellario sounds like a dudes name-> huh?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

its unlikely that its melario of norvos. mellario sounds like a dudes name-

I'm discretely using this opportunity to advertise the use of sarcasm fonts. At least, I hope that this is what's missing from your post, and not common sense or such.

[raegal_targaryen]

no its not sarcasm, trust me when i ever i see mellario, reminds me of my friend called mario actually its pretty weird but its the truth.

[raegal_targaryen]

shouldnt mellario be in her atleast early fourtys or something than :D

[The Dornishman's Wife]

no its not sarcasm, trust me when i ever i see mellario, reminds me of my friend called mario actually its pretty weird but its the truth.

Okay then. Well, erm, I'd quote Mellario giving birth to three of Doran's kids as indication that she is most probably indeed a woman.

shouldnt mellario be in her atleast early fourtys or something than :D

Her eldest daughter is 23, so anything younger than 36 would be extremely unplausible, and early fourties seems very likely. Would fit with the only age info we know about Lemore (Tyrion says she's past forty, but still "handsome").

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Okay then. Well, erm, I'd quote Mellario giving birth to three of Doran's kids as indication that she is most probably indeed a woman.

Are we sure that she gave birth at those children? Maybe Ashara and Lyanna did.

Her eldest daughter is 23, so anything younger than 36 would be extremely unplausible, and early fourties seems very likely. Would fit with the only age info we know about Lemore (Tyrion says she's past forty, but still "handsome").

actually I think that in those books women over 40 are "handsome" in their 30s are "still beautiful"

[HoboJed]

I will take this one step further than I did over on the Septa Lemore's identity voting thread. This is all the "evidence" I can think of that hasn't already been discussed here.

Mellario and Lemore are very close to an anagram

In fact,

Mellario me=I am Lemore

Coincidence? I think not!

Not to mention:

Mellario

Mell-ario (split into two)

Mel-r-e-o (reduce to phonetic sounds)

Lem-o-r-e (Flip the first part and rotate the end letters)

Lemore (recombine)

[Mithras]

There is a long but very good read posted by Bran Vras. He/she argues that Doran did little and less to help Quentyn in his mission. Instead, he is giving all his support to Arianne. I think a clever men like him should try hard to help his son who would be the consort of the Queen unless he knows Aegon and prepares Arianne as his Queen.

And below is some stuff I posted in another thread.

“For that matter, why would you? Slavery may be forbidden by the laws of Pentos, yet you have a finger in that trade as well, and maybe a whole hand. And yet you conspire for the dragon queen, and not against her. Why? What do you hope to gain from Queen Daenerys?”

“Are we back to that again? You are a persistent little man.” Illyrio gave a laugh and slapped his belly. “As you will. The Beggar King swore that I should be his master of coin, and a lordly lord as well. Once he wore his golden crown, I should have my choice of castles … even Casterly Rock, if I desired.”

Tyrion snorted wine back up the scarred stump that had been his nose. “My father would have loved to hear that.”

“Your lord father had no cause for concern. Why would I want a rock? My manse is large enough for any man, and more comfortable than your drafty Westerosi castles. Master of coin, though …” The fat man peeled another egg. “I am fond of coins. Is there any sound as sweet as the clink of gold on gold?”

“Are you quite certain that Daenerys will make good her brother’s promises?”

“She will, or she will not.” Illyrio bit the egg in half. “I told you, my little friend, not all that a man does is done for gain. Believe as you wish, but even fat old fools like me have friends, and debts of affection to repay.”

Liar, thought Tyrion. There is something in this venture worth more to you than coin or castles.

The position of Illyrio is well known to us. He claims that he is in for gold and he also has debts of affection to repay. It is clear that he cares little and less about the gold and castles. He is doing it for the family and blood.

Lemore had changed out of her septa’s robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant.

Doran went to Volantis and from there to Norvos where he fell in love with Mellario. It is highly possible that they returned the same way and made appearance in Volantis. Also if Mellario is from an important merchant family of Norvos, she might be already known in Volantis. We also know that Oberyn was able to father a bastard from a noble woman from Old Blood in Volantis. I think House Martell is well known in Volantis.

Therefore, if Lemore is Mellario, perhaps she was removing her disguise and returning to her true identity when she changed her clothes from septa to a member of a merchant family in Selhorys. We know that once in Westeros, she returned to Septa robes again.

He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I’d judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Tyrion suspects that Lemore is not in for gold in this campaign. Wenda would probably do this for castles, lands etc. but Lemore does not seem to care about anything except the prince. Lemore’s position and manners seem similar to Illyrio. That is why, Wenda’s backstory is not so compatible with the behavior of Lemore.

Haldon took note of her change of garb as well. “What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa’s robes, Lemore.”

“I preferred her naked,” said Tyrion.

Lemore gave him a reproachful look. “That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa’s robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us.” She turned back to Prince Aegon. “You are not the only one who must needs hide.”

This also implies that Haldon does not know who she really is (or he fakes).

Chataya: A handsome woman, Tyrion reflected as he watched her go. He had seldom seen such elegance and dignity in a whore. Though to be sure, she saw herself more as a kind of priestess. Perhaps that is the secret. It is not what we do, so much as why we do it. Somehow that thought comforted him.

Sybell Spicer: Between them were a handsome older lady and a pretty maid who looked to be her daughter.

Alerie Hightower: Her mother Lady Alerie, silver-haired and handsome, still proud beside Mace Tyrell.

Lady Hewett: There were eight of them: her ladyship herself, still handsome though grown somewhat stout, and seven younger women aged from twenty-five to ten, her daughters and good-daughters.

Mariya Darry: Though Lady Mariya’s hair was streaked with grey, she was still a handsome woman.

Catelyn Stark: Her face, Brienne thought. Her face was so strong and handsome, her skin so smooth and soft.

Lady Lemore: whilst a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes.

Lady Lemore: When Lemore climbed back onto the deck, Tyrion savored the sight of water trickling between her breasts, her smooth skin glowing golden in the morning light. She was past forty, more handsome than pretty, but still easy on the eye.

Wynafryd Manderly: “Words are wind,” said the young woman behind Lord Wyman’s high seat, the handsome one with the long brown braid.

Barbrey Ryswell: Though there were wrinkles at the corners of her mouth and more around her eyes, she still stood tall, unbent, and handsome.

These are the women described as handsome. The red ones are from Tyrion POVs. Apart from Wynafryd Manderly, all of them are older women with adult children (or would be).

Yandry and Ysilla are two Greenblood born Dornish orphans come home to Mother Rhoyne. Their presence should be somehow important and related to Dorne. the orphans are the most gossiping society and surely two of them in such a secret company must be odd.

“A wicked dream, no doubt. You are a wicked man. Will you pray with me and ask forgiveness for your sins?”

Only if we pray in the fashion of the Summer Isles. “No, but do give the Maiden a long, sweet kiss for me.”

Laughing, the septa walked to the prow of the boat. It was her custom to bathe in the river every morning. “Plainly, this boat was not named for you,” Tyrion called as she disrobed.

“The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor. We should glory in our bodies, for they are the work of gods.”

There is also a strange similarity between Lemore and Chataya (or more generally Summer Islanders). They are not shy of nudity. This is very atypical for a Septa.

So, my speculation goes like this:

1. At some point, Doran was contacted by Team Aegon.

2. There are two options here both equally valid. Team Aegon either made Doran believe that they are pro-Targaryens, or they told him that Aegon is in fact fAegon. I think the end result does not change. Doran is a reasonable man and he knows that fAegon or Aegon, he has a very good chance to be the king and he can give him his heart’s desire; vengeance and the chance to make his daughter Queen.

3. Doran made a secret arrangement to send Arianne to Tyrosh to meet Viserys secretly. Mellario opposed that. I think at this point, Doran decided to set Viserys aside (I bet he was already proving to be a douchebag by that time).

4. Doran is a master of pretexts by which he hides his true intentions. I think his quarrel with Mellario was a ploy. After Trystane was born, Mellario officially returned to Norvos because of her bad marriage with Doran but in fact, she went to raise fAegon properly and as a good partner for her precious daughter. I bet fAegon knows everything needed to blow the mind of a girl like Arianne (he learned it from the source).

5. Arianne is in a secret mission which she believes that she holds the fate of Dorne in her hand. I think that is a big illusion. The union of fAegon and Arianne is decided by their elders long ago. One is raised as the fuel and the other is raised as the oxidizer. They are putting them together and the only end result might be an explosion. They will fall in love and think that their love is genuine. It might still be so but their elders planned this marriage long ago.

And there is this bit from AGoT:

“This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was. Stannis Baratheon and Lysa Arryn have fled beyond my reach, and the whispers say they are gathering swords around them. The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger… the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing. Yet Lord Stark’s the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he’ll have the truth. And now his wife has abducted Tyrion Lannister, thanks to Littlefinger’s meddling. Lord Tywin will take that for an outrage, and Jaime has a queer affection for the Imp. If the Lannisters move north, that will bring the Tullys in as well. Delay, you say. Make haste, I reply. Even the finest of jugglers cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever.”

Doran is indeed a player but there is zero word of him here. And who are those two players Varys mentions?

[Mithras]

“You can know a man by his friends, Egg. Daeron surrounded himself with maesters, septons, and singers. Always there were women whispering in his ear, and his court was full of Dornishmen. How not, when he had taken a Dornishwoman into his bed, and sold his own sweet sister to the prince of Dorne, though it was Daemon that she loved? Daeron bore the same name as the Young Dragon, but when his Dornish wife gave him a son he named the child Baelor, after the feeblest king who ever sat the Iron Throne.”

“Daemon, though . . . Daemon was no more pious than a king need be, and all the great knights of the realm gathered to him. It would suit Lord Bloodraven if their names were all forgotten, so he has forbidden us to sing of them, butI remember. Robb Reyne, Gareth the Grey, Ser Aubrey Ambrose, Lord Gormon Peake, Black Byren Flowers, Redtusk, Fireball . . . Bittersteel! I ask you, has there ever been such a noble company, such a roll of heroes?”

I bet fAegon’s piety is only enough to play the role of a pious king whom the common folk loves. For this training, a septa who is actually not a septa is enough.

It looks like Team Blackfyre has made some clever improvements in their strategy. fAegon is a good combination of Daeron II and Daemon. It is hilarious that a Blackfyre pretender is now impersonating Daeron II whom they hate most. fAegon is destined to take a Dornishwoman (Arianne) into his bed. Team Blackfyre sold Dany II to Drogo while they hated Daeron II selling Dany I to the Martells.

[Frey family reunion]

“You can know a man by his friends, Egg. Daeron surrounded himself with maesters, septons, and singers. Always there were women whispering in his ear, and his court was full of Dornishmen. How not, when he had taken a Dornishwoman into his bed, and sold his own sweet sister to the prince of Dorne, though it was Daemon that she loved? Daeron bore the same name as the Young Dragon, but when his Dornish wife gave him a son he named the child Baelor, after the feeblest king who ever sat the Iron Throne.”

“Daemon, though . . . Daemon was no more pious than a king need be, and all the great knights of the realm gathered to him. It would suit Lord Bloodraven if their names were all forgotten, so he has forbidden us to sing of them, butI remember. Robb Reyne, Gareth the Grey, Ser Aubrey Ambrose, Lord Gormon Peake, Black Byren Flowers, Redtusk, Fireball . . . Bittersteel! I ask you, has there ever been such a noble company, such a roll of heroes?”

I bet fAegon’s piety is only enough to play the role of a pious king whom the common folk loves. For this training, a septa who is actually not a septa is enough.

It looks like Team Blackfyre has made some clever improvements in their strategy. fAegon is a good combination of Daeron II and Daemon. It is hilarious that a Blackfyre pretender is now impersonating Daeron II whom they hate most. fAegon is destined to take a Dornishwoman (Arianne) into his bed. Team Blackfyre sold Dany II to Drogo while they hated Daeron II selling Dany I to the Martells.

I pretty much agree with your analysis. I posted a thread some time ago guessing the same thing. We also have the parallels of Aegon(descendant of Daemon Blackfyre) and Arianne (descendant of Daenaerys I) union fulfilling the unrequited love of their ancestors that perhaps started the first Blackfyre rebellion.

I think Connington's reaction when he is told that the Dornish forces are merely sitting in the passes as opposed to joining him after he lands on Westeros is telling. It's the reaction of a man who has assumed that the Dornes were already allies. My guess is he was given assurances by Illyrio that they would support him. Of course no one took into account just how cautious Doran is. When Aegon landed without Daenaerys's army and more importantly her dragons, Doran remained on the sidelines because things were not proceeding according to their plans. I think Arianne's actual mission in Doran's mind is to let him know if Aegon has Dany's dragons and the strength of his forces. If he feels the forces are sufficient to take King's Landing with minimal danger to his forces, he's going to give the go ahead for his troops to join Aegon's. Otherwise he's going to sit the invasion out.

The reason he hasn't told Arianne his actual plans is he knows she can't be trusted to keep her mouth shut and he wishes to have plausible deniability in case everything goes horribly wrong. Now my guess is Arianne is going to become so infatuated with Aegon that she is going to tell her father whatever she needs to in order to get him to commit his forces.

[Mithras]

“That last part, about the message. Have you had tidings?”

Prince Doran shared his secret smile with her. “From Lys. A great fleet has put in there to take on water. Volantene ships chiefly, carrying an army. No word as to who they are, or where they might be bound. There was talk of elephants.”

“No dragons?”

“Elephants. Easy enough to hide a young dragon in a big cog’s hold, though. Daenerys is most vulnerable at sea. If I were her, I would keep myself and my intentions hidden as long as I could, so I might take King’s Landing unawares.”

Does anybody think that Dany’s dragons can be transported with ships? Remember Doran gave Arianne a serious dragon book to read in the tower.

And isn’t it curious that JonCon did not raise any banners while coming to Westeros just like Doran thought.

[HexMachina]

This is my favourite Lemore theory, if she is someone we know or have seen already. I'm not entirely convinced she is a "somebody" but this is my favourite if she is. However, I will say that if she is nvolved, I think it is without Doran's knowledge.

Some possible support:

He was a prince of a distant country, and she was a woman full of life, who was very appealing, who came from a very different culture.

The bolded could potentially fit with Lemore's light-heartedness

If Lemore is Mellario, I think she is doing this without Doran's knowledge, specifically to spite Doran. we have this:

There's some bitterness from Mellario about this, because as Prince of Dorne, Doran has been able to stay with his children and she has had to leave them.

She is unhappy about leaving her children behind in Dorne. I think it is possible that she was approached by Vays/Illyrio or one of their agents after they found out about the fractured relationship between her and the Prince of Dorne. IMO Doran is opposed to the Spider, and so the Spider would possibly like someone who could help him to understand or work against Doran. Mellario would meet this need. Varys and/or Illyrio may have brought her into the plot by promising to marry her daughter to Aegon so that she becomes the Queen. This way, Mellario has her child(ren) back and has managed to spite Doran in the process (by taking his heir from him).

“Coin?” her mother had screamed. “He is your son. What sort of father uses his own flesh and blood to pay his debts?”

“The princely sort,” Doran Martell had answered

Mellario may want to make Doran pay his debts to her with his own flesh and blood [Arriane]

Lemore is also estimated to be in her forties. Melarrio is apparently younger than Doran, who is 52, so that could fit.

The timeline would also fit. The text imo implies that Lemore joined the Aegon plot after Jon Connington, who was introduced to Aegon when he was age 6. Whether Aegon is real or fake, his birth would be roughly 282 AC, and Mellario does not leave Dorne until Quentyn is fostered at a young age. As Quentyn was born in 281AC, it is unlikely he would be fostered out until at the very least age 6/7 in 287/288 AC. Therefore, by the time Mellario returns to Norvos and is approached with the plot, Jon Connington would already be involved.

What's missing:

• Descriptions of Lemore and Mellario
  
• The Septa disguise - why?
  
• Accents?
  
• Varys and Illyrio told Jon Connington and co. that Aegon would travel to Volantis to meet Daenerys and wed her. Clearly, if Lemore=Mellario, this would go against my speculated motivations for her. However, it is possible, as I think Paper Weaver has speculated, that Daenerys was never truly the plan, and Lemore could have been party to this, though this is just speculation.
  

Anyway, this theory will be confirmed or debunked when Arriane reaches Jon Connington and company. I look forward to it :)

[Mithras]

“My lord, wouldn’t it be safer to leave the boy here aboard the boat?”

“Safer, yes. Wiser, no. He is a man grown now, and this is the road that he was born to walk.”

“We have gone to great lengths to keep Prince Aegon hidden all these years,” Lemore reminded him. “The time will come for him to wash his hair and declare himself, I know, but that time is not now. Not to a camp of sellswords.”

“If Harry Strickland means him ill, hiding him on the Shy Maid will not protect him. Strickland has ten thousand swords at his command. We have Duck. Aegon is all that could be wanted in a prince. They need to see that, Strickland and the rest. These are his own men.”

“His because they’re bought and paid for. Ten thousand armed strangers, plus hangers-on and camp followers. All it takes is one to bring us all to ruin. If Hugor’s head was worth a lord’s honors, how much will Cersei Lannister pay for the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? You do not know these men, my lord. It has been a dozen years since you last rode with the Golden Company, and your old friend is dead.”

Although Illyrio bought the GC, Lemore was extremely wary in trusting them. I think her real objection was that the GC was the headquarters of the Black Dragon for a century and now they were presumably supporting the Red Dragon. That means Lemore is in a circle with the information that the boy is Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar, just like Griff. But she also seems to be of a smaller circle than Griff because of her more compassionate attitudes towards the boy. That means if she is Mellario, Griff does not know that.

[Sansa Snow]

I think Lemore is Wylla (the wet-nurse). Wylla is one of those mysterious charachters like Howland Reed that definitely knows something important, but has been missing from the story this whole time.