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Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone


165 replies to this topic

#1 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 01:48 AM

**Edit in progress.**

 

Almost everyone is familiar with the Rosetta Stone. It was the key that unlocked ancient Egypt's hieroglyphs. In a similar fashion, the blue winter roses in ASoIaF help to unravel the mystery of Jon Snow's past, while also possibly providing some hints about his future.

 

The biggest misconception about the winter roses, imo, is that they symbolize (only) Lyanna Stark. There is some truth here, but she is only a part of the equation. I wouldn't go so far as to say the notion that 'Lyanna = blue roses' is a red herring. But, because the flowers are always presented in AGoT as relating to her, I do believe GRRM was intentionally leading the audience down a dimly lit path, so to speak.

 

Ned thinks about, remembers, or dreams of Lyanna in combination with winter roses on a handful of occasions. Yet it is not until his final chapter (XV) that we learn the origin of his sister's roses. Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

 

This reveal means that Lyanna's roses are inherently tied to Rhaegar, since he is the one who gave them to her in the first place.

 

Does this mean that the flowers symbolize Rhaegar? No. Not by himself, anyway. Though, like Lyanna, he is a part of the equation.

Before getting started, it's worth noting what blue roses tend to mean in the real world. For example: "The meaning of the blue rose is about mystery [as in; who is Jon Snow's mother?] or attaining the impossible. The blue rose is also used as a symbol of love at first sight [R+L?]. The blue colouring also represents royal blood [which Jon receives from his father] so it can represent splendour and regal majesty."

 

---

 

AGoT, Eddard:
 

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was... fond of flowers.”

- Eddard I

 

Spoiler

 

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

-Eddard X

 

Spoiler

 

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna. “
Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. “I do not know which of you I pity most.”

-Eddard XII

 

Spoiler

 

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned, “ Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

-Eddard XIII

 

Spoiler


Let's revisit The Moment When All the Smiles Died, from Eddard XV, because there is an addendum which belongs here, I think.

 

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

 

Spoiler


Here is the rest:

 

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

 

Spoiler


ACoK, Theon:

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

- Theon XI

 

Spoiler


---

ACoK, Daenerys:

 

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

-Daenerys IV (HotU)

 

Spoiler


---

 

The Song O' the Winter Rose; Bael, Rhaegar, Mance, R+L=J:

Lastly, there is the Bael the Bard story. If Jon is supposed to be the blue winter rose, how does he fit in there? Quite well, actually. Rather than quoting the whole thing I'll repeat the analysis I've previously given, because it's pretty simple: the story is about a Stark daughter who gives birth to a son. Does that sound like anyone we know? There's more to it, actually.

  • Bael is the King-beyond-the-Wall ~ Rhaegar is the crown prince
  • Bael styles himself as a bard ~ Rhaegar is a well known harpist
  • Bael steals the Stark girl ~ Rhaegar 'steals' Lyanna
  • Bael leaves a winter rose in place of the Stark girl ~ Rhaegar gives Lyanna a crown of winter roses
  • The Stark girl gives birth to a son ~ Lyanna gives birth to Jon
  • The Stark girl eventually dies ~ Lyanna dies in the ToJ

Did I forget anything? Well, you get the idea.

I think the BtB story is meant to tell us that Jon's Stark lineage derives from his mother, not his father as we have been led to believe. Whether you feel as strongly about the Jon-BWR connections as I do or not, we can agree that Jon is at least associated with the winter rose. And the rose features prominently in this story which, as I said above, has a Stark daughter giving birth to a son.

This is, of course, the BtB story as it pertains to R+L=J. There are almost certainly other events that are foreshadowed by that tale.

---

If my conclusions are more or less correct, how will GRRM reveal this to the audience? In my opinion, the most clear-cut method of conveying this information is to have Jon eventually adopt the blue rose as his sigil. Since sigils are often used to represent the characters to whom they belong, Jon's use of the blue rose would establish an undeniable link between the two, both real (in-universe) and symbolic (for the benefit of the readers).

Assuming that:

  • Jon does take the blue rose as his sigil or personal device, and:
  • GRRM does link his characters with their sigils as specified above,

it seems like my thesis ought to be correct in principle, if not in detail.

---

Thanks for reading.


Edited by J. Stargaryen, 12 July 2014 - 08:30 AM.


#2 Sun

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:33 AM

I think this post belongs in the R+L=J thread.

#3 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:36 AM

It could go there, but the focus of the post is not on Jon's parentage, but rather how the symbolism of the BWR relates to Jon. So I think I'm in the clear.

#4 Usrnmhsnomning

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:02 AM

The very least you could have done is pointed out Dany seeing a blue rose in a frozen wall, which is probably the biggest indication that blue roses are symbolism for Jon. Everything else is more of a "and in this sentence it says blue rose, which means Jon" which doesn't really have any weight, true or not.

#5 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:12 AM

Nice post overall.

However, there's one mention of the blue winter rose that you still have to explain: Bael the Bard asking Brandon the Daughterless for a Blue Winter Rose and taking his daughter instead.

Basically, both interpretations exist in parallel, and both have some points in favor and some against. I'll wait and see how all of this plays out /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#6 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:13 AM

The very least you could have done is pointed out Dany seeing a blue rose in a frozen wall, which is probably the biggest indication that blue roses are symbolism for Jon. Everything else is more of a "and in this sentence it says blue rose, which means Jon" which doesn't really have any weight, true or not.


You know, honestly, I take that fact for granted, and assumed that anyone who buys into the Jon-BWR symbolism does too. I felt like it was superfluous to add, but just for you...

And, FYI, the point of my interpretations is that I'm at least attempting to show how Jon fits into these parts of the story in place of the BWR, when the rose pops up.

#7 Usrnmhsnomning

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:16 AM

The Dany vision makes the theory, imo. Just saying.

#8 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:23 AM

Nice post overall.

However, there's one mention of the blue winter rose that you still have to explain: Bael the Bard asking Brandon the Daughterless for a Blue Winter Rose and taking his daughter instead.

Basically, both interpretations exist in parallel, and both have some points in favor and some against. I'll wait and see how all of this plays out /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />


Well, that's what I try to address here:

Now, they might not symbolize only Jon. There is also good reason to associate them with Lyanna, or the entire set of events beginning with the Tourney at Harrenhal in the Year of the False Spring. However, Lyanna is no longer alive at the beginning of the story; Jon is. And, most importantly, all of those events led to Jon's birth. Symbollically, Jon Snow is the blue winter rose.


The idea being that while I can't necessarily rule others out, I can rule Jon in, in every case. Essentially, the BWR may very well symbolize stolen Stark daughters and the sons that they give birth to. In our story, only Jon meets this criteria in every case. Of course there is an argument to be made for Sansa being connected to the Bael story, too. Besides that, I do not think you can really connect her to any other BWR symbolism.

There is a discussion about the RW vision in the HotU where I note a similar concept. There is some question as to whether the vision really showed the RW. My argument is that even though I can't rule out alternative takes, I definitely can rule in the RW.

Thanks for your input. This is an important point that needed clarification.

#9 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:24 AM

The Dany vision makes the theory, imo. Just saying.


Right, I 100% agree. If you doubt me even a little, just hover your mouse pointer over my name. /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

Thanks for the input.

#10 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:57 AM

Well, that's what I try to address here:


The idea being that while I can't necessarily rule others out, I can rule Jon in, in every case. Essentially, the BWR may very well symbolize stolen Stark daughters and the sons that they give birth to. In our story, only Jon meets this criteria in every case. Of course there is an argument to be made for Sansa being connected to the Bael story, too. Besides that, I do not think you can really connect her to any other BWR symbolism.

There is a discussion about the RW vision in the HotU where I note a similar concept. There is some question as to whether the vision really showed the RW. My argument is that even though I can't rule out alternative takes, I definitely can rule in the RW.

Thanks for your input. This is an important point that needed clarification.


Sure, I just wanted you to make the point a little more clear overall. I don't really disagree with it all that much, in fact. Still, I'd argue the BWR is a symbol for both R+L's love and Jon - because both are, basically, identical.

#11 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:01 AM

Sure, I just wanted you to make the point a little more clear overall. I don't really disagree with it all that much, in fact. Still, I'd argue the BWR is a symbol for both R+L's love and Jon - because both are, basically, identical.


Yes! Jon is a walking, talking symbol of that love. This is a point I've made in the past, using the term equivalence.

#12 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:30 AM

Yes! Jon is a walking, talking symbol of that love. This is a point I've made in the past, using the term equivalence.


ETA: I've updated the third paragraph with what I hope will be helpful information. Or you can just read it here:

ETA: I suppose it is worth stating my intent here, and that is to show how and why Jon fits into the story whenever and wherever the winter roses are mentioned. I am not claiming that my 'translations' are 100% accurate or even 100% complete. That said, I think my interpretations are a good place to start if you wish to make the case that the winter roses are the key to unlocking parts of Jon's back story. I say "parts" because there is already a good deal of evidence for his parentage. In fact, the reason I'm so fond of this theory is that I've tested it against things we already know or at least assume, where applicable. The method I use there is: 1) start by assuming that any mention of the roses symbolizes Jon Snow; 2) see if that fits with things we already know, or assume; e.g., Lyanna + blood + winter roses (aka, Jon) actually correlates to a 'known/assumed event - Lyanna gave birth to Jon.


Edited by J. Stargaryen, 12 March 2013 - 04:32 AM.


#13 Kiss of Fire

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:51 AM

In the Bael the Bard story, does it specify which stark girl is stolen...who is Lord of Winterfell at this time? It parellels R+L=J so perfectly...wondering if there were even more clues.

#14 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 05:15 AM

No, no such time is given. Indeed, pinning it down on the timeline is almost impossible: There's already a Kingsroad, and the Stark is a Lord, not a King. So it has to be within the last 300 years. But at the same time, Bael's son had to fight against a Bolton to subjugate him, and apparently the Starks last faught the Boltons well before the consolidation of the Seven Kingdoms - reputedly 1000 years ago, although I tend to be sceptical of the pre-Targ timeline.

So indeed, the story of Bael the Bard isn't historical, it's prophetic: It tells the story of Jon Snow: being the grandson of a Lord Stark and the son of a bard who would be king who stole the Stark Lord's daughter; returned to Winterfell and brought up by the Starks without knowing his true heritage; fighting against the Wildlings together (or rather, in the function of) LC of the NW; confronting a Bolton and being killed in the process (well, it certainly looks like it right now...)

#15 Wolfox6

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:59 PM

Well, kudos! Well thought out. I'd already come to the conclusion just for the fact that 3 KG were willing to die at the Tower of Joy, but you've given me another reason to reread. Thank you, and well done. /thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />

#16 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:07 PM

Well, kudos! Well thought out. I'd already come to the conclusion just for the fact that 3 KG were willing to die at the Tower of Joy, but you've given me another reason to reread. Thank you, and well done. /thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />


Thank you. I'm glad you liked it. GRRM has given us many reasons to repeatedly read his work. Beautiful stuff.

#17 Greenfyre

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:11 PM

A fine analysis, and one with which I agree for the most part. The argument that Lyanna is Jon's mother is very compelling.

#18 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:20 PM

A fine analysis, and one with which I agree for the most part. The argument that Lyanna is Jon's mother is very compelling.


Thanks, but of course the best interpretation I've come up with for all of the symbolism is The Moment When All the Smiles Died, which certainly states that Rhaegar is Jon's father. Because, you know, he put the crown of blue roses Jon in Lyanna's lap womb.

Edited by J. Stargaryen, 15 March 2013 - 02:59 AM.


#19 indignant mushroom

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:23 PM

Blood could also stand for a Targ, since it is in their motto. That's what I gathered initially.

#20 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:27 PM

Blood could also stand for a Targ, since it is in their motto. That's what I gathered initially.


That's interesting. I'll have to give that some thought.