R+L=J v.47

[lcd52]

Excellent points. Winter coming on after the Tourney and the improbability of travel to the Vale would mean Mya Stone's birth (and Ned holding the babe) had to occur prior to the Tourney. And yes, a winter holed up with Robert would have given Lyanna much to ponder. Do you think he would have been visiting whores in the winter town right under her nose?

Much and more to ponder.

This is Robert, right? The heart-sick suitor who RANG Every Bell at the Peach while fighting a war to recover his "Lost Love?" I don't know that he necessarily needed whores - those millers' wives seem to get around.

[finger]

I don't think it's a stretch to think that getting to the point of such a powerful Warg would happen with one toss of the genetic dice between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but may be something that needs to happen more than once, especially if we suspect that Jon will eventually become one with one of Danys Dragons, or a Dragon.

I'd say warging is an ancestral ability, that comes to the Starks trough their First Men blood, possibly those Flints, or families near the Wall. They are more common between the free people.

[finger]

Thats a good point, because it almost seems as if this ability is something the Stark kids are unaware of, and seem to think of as waking dreams.

And it's observed of Jon that he's the most powerful Warg thats ever lived, and he doesn't even know it.

Me again.

I think Bran is a more powerfull warg than Jon or Arya.

If we accept they're cousins, this must come to them from their grandparents.

Other possibility, that I like better is that "someone" has put the direwofs on their way, and these are warging the kids at first, to make them "open their eyes", as they say.

Remember when Jon finds silent Ghost, that already had opened his eyes, Noone else could hear him, and I more than doubt that he made any sound, actually.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This is Robert, right? The heart-sick suitor who RANG Every Bell at the Peach while fighting a war to recover his "Lost Love?" I don't know that he necessarily needed whores - those millers' wives seem to get around.

:lmao: Yeah, mainly a rhetorical question. I doubt Lyanna would have been much impressed by her observations of the happy man-whore.

[finger]

:lmao: Yeah, mainly a rhetorical question. I doubt Lyanna would have been much impressed by her observations of the happy man-whore.

It's clear that Lyanna was betrothing Robert, because it was her father's will. And I don't see Rhaegar stealing Lyanna without her "leave".

I take Rhaegar was well prepared with his KG. We don't know if they had some kind of communication between TOH and the "abduction".

Crackpot theory: L actually called Rhaegar to free her from Robert, whom she clearly didn't love.

I know, it sounds queer, but it makes some loose ends meet.

L had some winlding blood, and I cling to the wildling ways. You'll have noticed that wildling girls are stolen only if they want to, har.

[Ygrain]

One more thought. @Eurybia noted above the parallel between Cat-Tyrion and Rhaegar-Lyanna, if we consider the Inn as the locus. She also wondered if (to take the parallel a step further) the "kidnapping" was a chance event? That is, Rhaegar happened upon Lyanna and made a spur of the moment decision. It's an interesting thought that I had never fully considered and would explain some of the niggling objections to the logistics of the whole thing as well as Rhaegar's behavior (who as you point out appeared to be happily making a baby with his wife for most of the past year)

That would require Rhaegar having business somewhere north of the KL. Where would he be going, and why? And where was Lyanna going? Presumably, to Brandon's wedding, but where was Rickard? It would seem strange that he should let her go ahead (if she was originally in Winterfell), were they together and Rhaegar snatched her from under his nose? Somehow, this seems a stretch.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

That would require Rhaegar having business somewhere north of the KL. Where would he be going, and why? And where was Lyanna going? Presumably, to Brandon's wedding, but where was Rickard? It would seem strange that he should let her go ahead (if she was originally in Winterfell), were they together and Rhaegar snatched her from under his nose? Somehow, this seems a stretch.

Hmm... I assume you read my earlier post and know this part is admittedly in the realm of speculation? Lyanna could have been heading to Riverrun and Brandon could have been planning to meet her. Rhaegar could have been any number of places. But I agree with you- we just can't say anything about their movements at that moment with much confidence. I actually prefer to focus on the things we can know, which is that it appears likely that Ned and Lyanna and probably Robert wintered together at Winterfell.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

edit- double post

[UVA]

This is a really terrific job LadyGwyn!

If Rhaegar crowning Lyanna QoLaB was symbolic recognition that he knew she was the KotLT (ie- "my lady you earned this crown with your bravery and honor") might the raised eyebrows caused by this action not have led Rickard to forge ahead quickly with the betrothal of his daughter to Robert Baratheon post tourney? Knowing what we do about Robert's egotism, wouldn't we have heard a bit more about his reaction to the "crowning" if indeed Lyanna were already marked as "his"?

Lyanna gaining intell on Robert at Harrenhal would certainly inform her comments to Ned later at Winterfell, and lends support to your claim that the proposal was post-Harrenhal. There's no indication Robert ever visited Winterfell when he was Arryn's ward.

That said, Martin describes Robert's reaction to the events at Harrenhal in an August 2012 SSM:

What was Robert’s reaction to Rhaegar naming Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty?

I can tell you it didn’t quite sit well with him. He should have crowned his own lady.

This comment doesn't negate your timeline though. Robert could have become smitten with Lyanna at Harrenhal and was angered by Rhaegar's 'stunt',-- just bringing it up for your consideration.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This is a really terrific job LadyGwyn!

Lyanna gaining intell on Robert at Harrenhal would certainly inform her comments to Ned later at Winterfell, and lends support to your claim that the proposal was post-Harrenhal. There's no indication Robert ever visited Winterfell when he was Arryn's ward.

That said, Martin describes Robert's reaction to the events at Harrenhal in an August 2012 SSM:

This comment doesn't negate your timeline though. Robert could have become smitten with Lyanna at Harrenhal and was angered by Rhaegar's 'stunt',-- just bringing it up for your consideration.

Thanks, I appreciate that! Constructive input is good, even if it might only show us when we're in a blind alley :)

I have seen that SSM, but admit I hadn't considered it. Reading it now, I wonder if you think there could be some pronoun confusion there?

"I can tell you it didn’t quite sit well with him/Robert. He/Rhaegar should have crowned his own lady/Elia."

Just a thought. Like you said it doesn't rule anything out really.

[UVA]

I have seen that SSM, but admit I hadn't considered it. Reading it now, I wonder if you think there could be some pronoun confusion there?

"I can tell you it didn’t quite sit well with him/Robert. He/Rhaegar should have crowned his own lady/Elia."

Yes, your reading makes more sense when taken in context of this scene. In any event, I wanted to point out this SSM lends support to the idea that Robert, at the very least, had enough of an interest in Lyanna at Harrenhal to be rattled by Rhaegar's attentions towards her.

[MtnLion]

Yes, your reading makes more sense when taken in context of this scene. In any event, I wanted to point out this SSM lends support to the idea that Robert, at the very least, had enough of an interest in Lyanna at Harrenhal to be rattled by Rhaegar's attentions towards her.

I will plead that some spike of that SSM raised to the surface when I suggested that the betrothal was done at Harrenhal, even though we have no record of Rickard being there. It could be that Robert met Lyanna there, and accepted an offer from Rickard based upon the meeting. ETA: It could also be that Robert petitioned Rickard for the betrothal based upon meeting Lyanna at Harrenhal, even though this really puts a slant on Lady Dustin's monologue.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I will plead that some spike of that SSM raised to the surface when I suggested that the betrothal was done at Harrenhal, even though we have no record of Rickard being there. It could be that Robert met Lyanna there, and accepted an offer from Rickard based upon the meeting.

And then Rickard made a formal announcement of the betrothal back home at Winterfell. I agree with UVA that Robert certainly had the opportunity, between Harrenhall and his years with Ned, to have developed sufficient interest in Lyanna to be enthusiastic about the match. The problem is putting Rickard and Robert together, since we get so little about the movements of Rickard Stark, outside of his final journey. Unless this type of thing could be done by letter, messenger or intermediary?

[Alia of the knife]

Just ducking in, but didn't the app say that Robert asked Ned to press his suit with Lyanna?

@Finger, I'll respond to your post when I get in from work :)

[UVA]

Just ducking in, but didn't the app say that Robert asked Ned to press his suit with Lyanna?

Yep, you beat me to it Alia! Lyanna's entry states that "she was betrothed to Robert Baratheon after her brother Eddard brought Robert's suit to Winterfell."

This suggests that Robert wasn't present when Rickard agreed to the betrothal.

[MtnLion]

Yep, you beat me to it Alia! Lyanna's entry states that "she was betrothed to Robert Baratheon after her brother Eddard brought Robert's suit to Winterfell."

This suggests that Robert wasn't present when Rickard agreed to the betrothal.

Not necessarily, he could have brought the proposal, and Robert . . .

If Robert doesn't go with Ned, then I would think he is wintering at the Bloody Gate with the Blackfish.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Just found this, from AGoT ch.4

"...what will this place be like in winter?"

Robert to Ned upon his arrival at WF. Since, as Mtn Lion pointed out, winter would have set in shortly after the tourney, it seems we can rule out Robert's presence there.

[Buried Treasure]

Though Harrenhal and the Crossroads Inn have been previously suggested as places she was travelling from I think Lyanna could have been staying at Riverrun, and taken whilst she was riding out for the day. I think we all accept the 'at swordpoint' incident happened on the road rather than in a castle (otherwise Rhaegar would have been open to accusations of breaking guest right) but she would have been easier for Rhaegar to locate if she were generally static rather than travelling.

[Snark_Tamer]

How solid is the 'Aegon born 8 or 9 months after Harrenhall'? Or did I even read that right.

Because Elia being up and looking well for the first time in a while sounds to ME like she was finally past her morning sickness--first trimester, typically.

And Rhaegar's decision to take Lyanna seems likely related to Elia's barrenness post-Aegon--now if something happened during birth to cause that barrenness (which is quite likely--short disease, this IS when women are most likely to have an event that takes them from fertile to barren), it may have taken him a little time, though, to come to terms with what that meant... no three-headed dragon.

I can believe a chance meeting at the crossroads, or maybe Rhaegar was coming north specifically to find Lyanna... probably KNOWING she would attend her brother's nuptuals at riverrun and so waiting for his chance (heck, for all we know, he was invited--Stark and Tully are important, a wedding would bring all the nobility who could come)

[MtnLion]

How solid is the 'Aegon born 8 or 9 months after Harrenhall'? Or did I even read that right.

Because Elia being up and looking well for the first time in a while sounds to ME like she was finally past her morning sickness--first trimester, typically.

Elia was bed-ridden for six months after Rhaenys was born. Given the ages of the children it is a very, very narrow window. My estimate is that Aegon is born 12 months after Harrenhal, plus or minus 3 months. I think it is the minus three months, for more than one reason.