R+L=J v.47

[MtnLion]

Come on, the intelligence penalty must have been much higher.

I agree, it should be like -30, but we know that int can't be less than one without dying.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Did you read the second question and answer?

I've read that interview so many times and frankly I think he is not being all the way honest, or at least not telling us everything, which is his preogative.

She has to have some fire-resistant abilities. She can feel heat and she can get burned. But I think she has a slight (like 30%) immunity to fire out of dragons mouths. because in the DwD in the fighting pit, she says (i dont have the exact quote) 'Drogons breath was hot enough to blister the skin' yet it did not blister her skin when he breathed fire at her or when she was in range of his 'regular breath'. But then he breathes fire at her, which she ducks so it does burn her hair off, but it does nothing to her scalp at all. And I think we could all agree that if a person got their hair all burned off by a stream of fire, it would at least damage your scalp a little.

But what proves the point more is that the hot metal spear that she grabs does blister her hands (mentioned in her last chapter of DwD). So the hot metal blister's her skin, but Drogons hot breath 'Hot enough to blister the skin' DOES NOT BLISTER HER. Again i am not saying she is fireproof, But IMO she definitely can withstand dragon breath more than other people.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

That answers the question whether Targaryens are all immune to fire, but that is not what I am saying. I am saying that Daenerys has some ability to resist heat that protected her from the "furnace wind" that burned up Quentyn.

I'd prefer to stick with what is in the book, but if you like quotes from Mr. Martin this one is more recent than (although it is still well before A Dance With Dragons was published):

So tolerating a bit more heat than other people is a Targaryen ability. Daenerys seems to be an extreme example of this, since she can tolerate the "furnace wind" that burned Quentyn (or there was some magic involved in the pit just like there was in the funeral pyre). If Jon is part Targaryans, he is at the other end of the spectrum.

YES!!! :agree:

[Ygrain]

YES!!! :agree:

You read that part about fire-resistant clothes and whip?

As for "hot enough to blister skin", I recall something about "scalding hot" baths that, however, never caused anyone to raise eyebrows, so I would be careful with these expressions of GRRM's.

[Snark_Tamer]

Hmm, Quentin grabs a whip because he saw Daenerys with one. Why does Quentin's whip burn, and Daenerys' whip did not. Must have been a *special* fireproof whip that Daenerys lifted, eh?

*cough*DragonIntentions*cough*

[MtnLion]

*cough*DragonIntentions*cough*

*cough*fanfiction*cough*

[Erudain]

no, the whip has the other 50% fire resist bonus to complete the set with the tokar

[MtnLion]

Actually, let's settle this. Because you are attempting to draw a parallel between the event with Quentyn and the even with Daenerys, the whole thing will fall apart. Her is why: Daenerys has her own perspective that is questionable. The spear point (the metal part) was embedded inside Drogon,a nd unreachable, so Daenerys grabbed the shaft and burnt her hands. But, let's assume that you can compare the hot wind in both scenarios. Danerys is facing one dragon, and thus has only one source to be aware of. Quentyn is facing one dragon, and comments on what he perceives from him, while another dragon out of his line of sight lights him up, literally. So, the wind may be the same in both scenes, but the flame is from the second dragon that burns Quentyn.

[Ygrain]

no, the whip has the other 50% fire resist bonus to complete the set with the tokar

Yes!

I might perhaps go with dragonintention for not burning their Mother, but you will not convince me that a whip gets a pass, as well. Or do dragons have a specific regulator of heat?

I would also point out that once ignited, no matter by what, a burning object burns at its own temperature of burning. It may also ignite by mere proximity of sufficient heat, so Drogon's fire may actually not have been in contact with Dany's hair at all.

[Ygrain]

Actually, let's settle this. Because you are attempting to draw a parallel between the event with Quentyn and the even with Daenerys, the whole thing will fall apart. Her is why: Daenerys has her own perspective that is questionable. The spear point (the metal part) was embedded inside Drogon,a nd unreachable, so Daenerys grabbed the shaft and burnt her hands. But, let's assume that you can compare the hot wind in both scenarios. Danerys is facing one dragon, and thus has only one source to be aware of. Quentyn is facing one dragon, and comments on what he perceives from him, while another dragon out of his line of sight lights him up, literally. So, the wind may be the same in both scenes, but the flame is from the second dragon that burns Quentyn.

Amen.

- And let's hope now that Apple Martini doesn't see this discussion :P

[Ruby Chevrolet]

*cough*DragonIntentions*cough*

Quentyn's whip burned because he was holding it in his hand when the dragon breathed fire on him. Daenerys' whip did not burn because she didn't pick it up until after the dragon breathed fire on her. She wasn't holding it when the furnace wind engulfed her and she wasn't holding it when the dragon roared full in her face and his breath was hot enough to blister skin. She picked it up after both of those things happened, and the fire did not touch her again after that because she dodged the third blast.

Her tokar did not burn because she abandoned it, and her veils, in the pit. What clothes remained after she left were described as "little more than rags" and may have been sheltered by her body during the dragonfire attack anyway because before Drogon blew fire on her she was knocked to the ground and was probably in a defensive crouch.

[MtnLion]

The events are not parallel, no matter how much you wish for it. Quentyn was not burnt by the dragon he was focused on in his POV. He was burnt by the other dragon that he did not see.

[Buried Treasure]

I've read that interview so many times and frankly I think he is not being all the way honest, or at least not telling us everything, which is his preogative.

She has to have some fire-resistant abilities. She can feel heat and she can get burned. But I think she has a slight (like 30%) immunity to fire out of dragons mouths. because in the DwD in the fighting pit, she says (i dont have the exact quote) 'Drogons breath was hot enough to blister the skin' yet it did not blister her skin when he breathed fire at her or when she was in range of his 'regular breath'. But then he breathes fire at her, which she ducks so it does burn her hair off, but it does nothing to her scalp at all. And I think we could all agree that if a person got their hair all burned off by a stream of fire, it would at least damage your scalp a little.

But what proves the point more is that the hot metal spear that she grabs does blister her hands (mentioned in her last chapter of DwD). So the hot metal blister's her skin, but Drogons hot breath 'Hot enough to blister the skin' DOES NOT BLISTER HER. Again i am not saying she is fireproof, But IMO she definitely can withstand dragon breath more than other people.

As Daenarys does not know the temperature at which skin typically blisters I take her description to be subjective. She described it as that hot because her skin was blistered by that level of heat. Her POV picks up sometime later, enough time for mild skin blisters to have healed even though the blisters to her handswerenot healed. That does not indicate that any other person would have been any more damaged by air of the same temperature.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

The events are not parallel, no matter how much you wish for it. Quentyn was not burnt by the dragon he was focused on in his POV. He was burnt by the other dragon that he did not see.

The parrallel isn't what they saw. It's what they felt.

Quentyn does not see the "furnace wind". He feels it, and it lights him on fire.

Daenerys does not see the "furnace wind". She feels it, and it does not light her on fire.

I asked earlier why this seems to be a controversial topic. Does it matter to some larger theory? If it is the R+L=J theory, I don't think it has anything to do with whether Rhaegar is Jon's father any more than silver hair or purple eyes do. If it matters to some other theory, I am not familiar with whatever that theory is.

[Buried Treasure]

The parrallel isn't what they saw. It's what they felt.

Quentyn does not see the "furnace wind". He feels it, and it lights him on fire.

Daenerys does not see the "furnace wind". She feels it, and it does not light her on fire.

Which could well indicate the two furnace winds were of different temperatures. We use the word ' green' for many different shades of colour, why can two people not use the same words to describe heated air that is different degrees of hot?

[finger]

Reconciling 'taken by swordpoint' with going voluntarily: I find it probably Lyanna loved Rhaegar right from the start, but she'd been promised to Robert, so duty-bound, she would have to refuse Rhaegar... but she didn't want to... honor versus love. But there is a solution, sort of. Something supported by the story Ygritte tells Jon about the bard who steals the Stark princess. She tells Rhaegar, if you want me, you would have to steal me like the wildlings do. That way HER honor isn't trashed--she's been 'taken' rather than breaking her father's honor, but she still gets to end up with the man she loves. The baby fits the story, too.

And this is not directed specifically, but generally: I like accuracy in discussions and have no objection to corrections when we have quotes to correct or clarify. I would just add my two cents that there is no reason to be belittling with how it's said. I think we should all assume we all come here for friendly discussion, so let's keep us friendly. EVEN when we've heard the same question or claim debunked a dozen or more times before... assume sincerity in the question or assertion and answer nicely.

I think there's some connection here with the wildling practice of stealing your wife. A wildling first go about the girl he likes and, if he finds her to be receptive, then he "steals" her. The girl's family has to oppose, and there are some bruises to account, but no blood, or not much. It's just a kind of wedding, like many others.

Btw, dragons are above laws. If there's a code they dislike, they just burn it out.

Caught! Jon's legitimate because their parents got married by the wildling rite, har.

Hey, but the wildlings don't kneel before southron kings, and they don't give a damn for parenthood.

Why should they care for legitimacy? hmmm.

[finger]

6. Finally- the Inn at the Crossroad. Notice how Martin continues to return to this location for events great and small? I think it's more than coincidence and we'll continue to see more events unfold there.

The Inn and Harrenhal itself. Some locations are like marked by destiny.

HH is the place where king Black Harred made his stand against the drangons, and gor dutifully roasted.

The Inn is where the last King in the North knelt before the dragon king.

And they keep being hinges of the destiny forever.

You have to take into account this symbols to undestand Martin's language.

[Silent Sparrow]

The Inn and Harrenhal itself. Some locations are like marked by destiny.

HH is the place where king Black Harred made his stand against the drangons, and gor dutifully roasted.

The Inn is where the last King in the North knelt before the dragon king.

And they keep being hinges of the destiny forever.

You have to take into account this symbols to undestand Martin's language.

You also have to remember that the Inn at the Crossroads is at the intersection of the Kingsroad and the Riverroad, if I remember correctly, which is the intersection between the North, the Eyrie, Riverrun, Casterly Rock, and Kings Landing. It's in a really good place for people traveling between any of those places and its about in the middle of the Riverlands.

[finger]

There are a couple options for WHY that would be though, aside from just Targarean blood.

Dragon intent: The dragons are magical beasts and perhaps if they don't want to kill you, you have some protection. It isn't complete protection--Dany blisters, but there is some.

or

The fire that hatched the dragon had enough magic to it that Dany ended up ALSO protected (again not completely)

OR

Hatching the dragons (personally) connects a person to them so their fire won't kill you--I know one of the earlier trio was eaten by her brother's dragon, but it wasn't HER dragon (and do we even know if these three hatched them?)

I also agree that it looks like perhaps the SPEAR than burned Dany, so maybe protection from flame is bigger, but it still might be FROM any of the things I listed.

I keep saying that Drogon didn't meant to harm her. Spitting fire was just his way to vent his anger.

Then and afters, he could have killed Dany if he'd liked. No, he went hunting, instead of eating Dany.

It's too streched to say Drogon "loves" his mom, but there's for sure a bond between them.

[finger]

No one is fireproof... Fire consumes all. Surrender yourself to the fires of the Lord of Light.

Okay, so after that spooky I actually have something to say.

Magical fire resistance is not the most conclusive factor to determine Jon's parentage.

Let's recall on physical evidence (Just like SherNed Holmes did)

Color of Hair: Dark (Brown or Black?)

Color of eyes: Gray

Color of skin: (I can't recall actually if it's fair or dark, though it's mentioned in the books that he is darker)

Fire Resistance: none

All Stark features.

Let's go to his internal features:

Good Leader

Watcher

Character

Northern

Old Gods

All Stark features.

Now let's look at his background

Lyanna's and Rhaegar's lovechild

Half Stark, Half Targaryen.

Sum it all up: We've got a mostly Stark Jon.

Why did I go on to this stupid list? I think everything points to Jon being more Stark than anything. It doesn't matter who his biological parents are, when his whole personality is already set. No big secret can change that. Not being heir to the Iron Throne, not being heir to the Kingdom of the North, not anything. He is an honorable Stark and his life is to his duty and his duty is to the Night's Watch and to protect the Realm from the Others. So does this secret about his parentage matter when he is already set for greatness as the LC of the NW? (Considering he will rise from the assassination atempt)

I basically agree, but with a couple of nuances.

He's been raised by his uncle and with his cousins, in the Stark values, he loves them, but he's no Stark, he's Snow, and very conscious.

He's been betrayed by his NW "brothers". I guess that he depends on the wildlings to stay alive. Something has to change.

It's weird, because in the last chapter, he had but resigned as NW'sLC, and taken the lead of the wildings, and then he was stabbed.

It might be a way to break him loose for his oaths.

Remember, the pink letter puts him again in the need to choose. The NW don't take part in the kingdom's feuds. And he decided to let the NW aside and head to Winterfel. Then, the wildlings followed the man.

I'm eager to read how it's continued.