Heresy 55

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 55, this week’s edition of the thread that looks at what may be really happening in the Song of Ice and Fire.

The thread is called Heresy because although we’re mainly interested in discussing northern-related matters we reject the assumption that the sole threat to Westeros comes from the Others. This is the Song of Ice and Fire, and the Otherlanders are only one side of that conflict and there is an equally dangerous threat posed by Fire.

Thus we question popular assumptions that the Others are evil incarnate, that the Children of the Forest are the good guys who once fought alongside the First Men and will teach Bran how to defeat the Others. We also doubt that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai and a dragon rider and laugh at the timelines.

Instead, prompted by the clues, Easter eggs and cookies which litter the text, we look at the mythological sources which underpin the magic, leading us through the Arthurian Legends, the Welsh Mabinogion, the Irish Tain bo Culaidh and the Norse Eddas amongst others, to discover Bran the Blessed, Tam Lin, Cu Chulainn, Herne the Hunter and above all the Morrigan – the Crow Goddess, associated with death and exhibiting three human aspects as maiden, mother and crone.

That GRRM’s likening the Others to the Sidhe made of ice, is not only apposite since what is known of the Otherlanders’ behaviour certainly corresponds to Faerie legend portraying them as beautiful but cruel, given to hunting maidens through the woods and to taking human children as changelings, per Craster’s sons, but its also significant that GRRM describes them as being made of Ice, because that exactly mirrors what we’ve discovered of Mel, Moqorro and Victarion, revealing all three as being Fire made flesh, exactly equal to and opposite those protagonists of Ice – the Otherlanders and their mysterious symbols.

And then there’s the Wall, which is not a defensive structure at all but the boundary between the Realms of Men and the Otherlands beyond. It was raised and maintained by great magic, and is not improbably the cause of the Long Night. It is, according to Ygritte, evil and made of blood as well as Ice. Thus we suspect the Wall must come down to achieve a resolution of the conflict and restore the balance of the seasons and everything else, for to quote Janet Clouston: “Blood built it, Blood stopped the building of it, and Blood will bring it down”

In doing that, Jon (apparently soon to be found being pursued alone through a forest near you) seems destined to bridle the Ice as King of Winter, while Danaerys Targaryen, once popularly tipped as his partner, may instead have to go back – to where the Targaryens and their dragons came from - into the smoke and salt of the Smoking Sea of Valyria to sort out the Fire.

All of these theories are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun, but we do reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed and that the children are not so cuddly as they pretend.

We’ve long since given up providing links to previous heresies since it moves so damn quickly, but in honour of the occasion Heresy 50 contained a series of essays looking at a number of topics in more detail.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84200-heresy-50/

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction, but if after reading the essays you want to go deeper, King Tyrion has kindly compiled this set of references

How It All Started:

The Wall, The Watch and A Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...h-and-a-heresy/

Complete Old Nan's Tales:

Heresy 6: http://asoiaf.wester...61905-heresy-6/

Others= Sidhe made of ice email and resulting discussion:

Heresy 10-13: http://asoiaf.wester...60#entry4427128

Extensive Timeline Discussion:

Heresy 14-23: http://asoiaf.wester...60#entry4427128

Reed Oath and several topics:

Heresy 29-34: http://asoiaf.wester...60#entry4427128

The Black Gate:

Heresy 41+ Heresy 42 (The Black Watch edition): http://asoiaf.wester...60#entry4427128

If you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all, not to mention the astonishing speed with which it moves, and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

All that we ask as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Topics at end of 54:

Summerhall and its significance; Andals, First Men, Iron, and Starks and their relationship in that light; the Maesters, Andals, Valyrians and their relationships with each other vis-a-vis the glass candles and magic in general

In response to the Maesters, reposting Lord Sheol's reply from after 55 launched

Again, I wouldn't analyse thing from the language poinr of view, it's misdirecting here.

About their link with the valyrian culture, have we entirely ruled out the possibility of cultural trade pre-Doom? I think not every single maester would've been able to light the black candles, not even in a magical period, if that would be possible, that'd mean that every man has the talent for magic, wich I doubt. This still works as an inniciation ritual, since there they would discover whether you can work magics, or not, and a lesson is impaired no matter the result.

[Tyryan Lannister]

And now for something completely different

As we have discussed many a time, Jon will, if he does need to be "brought back from the dead", be brought back by either Mel or Val. But what if he never died in the first place? What if he simply slipped into a coma like Bran did after his fall? Could he be visited by the Three-Eyed Crow? Or, could he even be visited by Bran himself, and it is Bran who shows him the way?

Food for thought

[Lord Martin Sheol]

Woah, that was fast :P

Chains..., those chains. I doubt they necessary mean that originally they were slaves. Eventhough their work is very similar to a slave: they renounce all their family and the possibility of having one, they're subject to their lords. It's like they're scholar slaves but with voice (since they're mainly advisors). It's an honorable vocation, it's very well regarded. I'd say those chains are just there in order to both symbolize their servitude to their hold and their rank/knowledge in their institution.

[Black Crow]

In ceremonial terms chains draped around the neck were, and to a degree are, a very acceptable and practical way of displaying wealth and/or status and have no connotations of slavery. So far as maesters go its also a symbol of how different fields of knowledge are all linked in seeking wisdom

[Lord Martin Sheol]

In ceremonial terms chains draped around the neck were, and to a degree are, a very acceptable and practical way of displaying wealth and/or status and have no connotations of slavery. So far as maesters go its also a symbol of how different fields of knowledge are all linked in seeking wisdom

Very reasonable. Liked the 'linked' motive.

Since that GRRM funny comment "You really believe he's death, don't you?"; I'm inclined to the coma hypothesis. I don't know about Bran or 3EC... If any would, I'd say the 3EC, unless, of course, Bran has developed his "powers" significantly since in the last time. I'm not saying that he can't communicate with Jon, but I'm saying that to have the necessary for him to guide Jon as the 3EC guided him.

[Black Crow]

And now for something completely different

As we have discussed many a time, Jon will, if he does need to be "brought back from the dead", be brought back by either Mel or Val. But what if he never died in the first place? What if he simply slipped into a coma like Bran did after his fall? Could he be visited by the Three-Eyed Crow? Or, could he even be visited by Bran himself, and it is Bran who shows him the way?

Food for thought

Oh I'm certainly anticipating something of that nature rather than Jon suddenly looking at the world through lupine eyes and muttering "so what do we do now Trigger?" Dead or alive (and I lean very heavily to the latter) the turning process, the awakening of his powers, is going to be seen in some manner similar to Bran's experience. The interesting bit is going to be who does the guiding.

[Hrafntýr]

Although I care about what will happen to Jon for the sake of his own personal trajectory, I think it might be illuminating to consider how the various actors around him at the Wall are likely to respond to his, let's say, critical injury, and to the attack upon him, since this might help to clarify who's who and the nature of their interests. I assume that there's going to be more general chaos at the Wall given what's happened. What are the parties present? Off the top of my head, I see that

(1) We've got the wildlings, who had just enthusiastically backed Jon in the plan to go to Winterfell.

(2) We've got the men of the Watch, perhaps a divided party, though none wanted to accompany Jon to Winterfell, if I remember correctly. To be sure there was longstanding resentment against Jon for his working with the wildlings. We don't know, or at least I don't know, whether the attack on Jon was an outbreak of those longstanding resentments in the face of Jon's announcement, or perhaps a mutiny that was set up to take place should something "like this" occur. His attackers say, "For the Watch," which seems pretty clear that this is all about sworn brothers not being able to get past seeing wildlings as the enemy, though perhaps also about his consorting too closely with Stannis.

(3) We've got Mel, Queen Selyse, the Queen's Men, and Val. Jon was on the way to the Queen to tell her about the Pink Letter when the Wun Wun/Ser Patrek incident happens, followed by the attack. What is likely to be their response when they learn the contents of the pink letter, and that Jon was attacked after arranging an assault on Ramsay at Winterfell? With whom will they ally themselves?

I don't know how these parties will respond. But the thing that does stand out that is pertinent to heresy, is that it seems like things might have taken an irrevocable turn for a Stark/King-Beyong-the-Wall alliance, should Jon recover. Which, incidentally, I expect him to do, maybe without any magic at all.

Though, last time around, it was a Stark/Joramun alliance that took down the Night's King. Do we see Jon as Night's King, with Mance as Joramun but allied with a different Stark? Or do we see a Jon and Mance alliance vs. another Stark as Night's King, Bran perhaps? Not that history has to repeat itself at all!

[redriver]

The question for me about Summerhall is whether there was a Stark involvement in the tragedy,knowingly or unwittingly.

We know Dunc&Egg visit Winterfell in the forthcoming She Wolves of Winterfell novella prior to Summerhall.

In Bran's last Weirwood vision we see,

Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of here toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor.

That's generally accepted as being Ser Duncan the Tall (Dunc) and presumably the slim girl (echoes of Lyanna?) is a Stark.Dunc wasn't of the kingsguard at this time,so could have had a paramour?

But it's the Ghost of High Heart's reaction to Arya which seems odd to me.Fine,if she sees a darkness in Arya,say so.But why the line about supping on enough grief at Summerhall?

Is it memories of a certain Stark that she fears, as much as the current one in view?

Does Rhaegar's mooning around Summerhall and his subsequent relations and actions with Lyanna have anything to do with this?

[wolfmaid7]

Guys give your opinion on these two questions, i have a crackpot stewing but it being posted depends on the answers.

1.What would you say is the difference between glamouring and Skinchanging?

2. What do you think will happen if someone who has prophetic dreams naturally 'learns' how to skinchange?

3. What do you think would happen if someone who doesn't have either of these abilities naturally 'learns' how to do them?

[Black Crow]

Its an interesting thought. At first reading, backed up by the transposition of Mel in the HBO version, its easy to interpret the smell of death as relating to Arya's future trade as an assassin, but the Ghost's rather extreme reaction, is not only suggestive of a lot more death to come, but does seem to link Arya in some way with Summerhall - not literally of course, but her Stark blood.

[Black Crow]

Guys give your opinion on these two questions, i have a crackpot stewing but it being posted depends on the answers.

1.What would you say is the difference between glamouring and Skinchanging?

2. What do you think will happen if someone who has prophetic dreams naturally 'learns' how to skinchange?

3. What do you think would happen if someone who doesn't have either of these abilities naturally 'learns' how to do them?

Glamours and skinchanging are two completely different things. Skinchanging is a matter of temporarily inhabiting a body other than your birth one. Glamours on the other hand are a form of magic which messes with the minds of those affected. The simple way of explaining it is that we strongly suspect that Mel is an old hag with crisply charred skin a la Victarion's arm, but to those around her she appears to be a beautiful youngish woman.

There was a good example when Arya was fitted with a new face to carry out the contract on the binder man. She appeared to have a caved-in face, missing teeth and so on, yet exploring it with fingers and tongue she was still herself with a full set of teeth.

[Urrax]

Its an interesting thought. At first reading, backed up by the transposition of Mel in the HBO version, its easy to interpret the smell of death as relating to Arya's future trade as an assassin, but the Ghost's rather extreme reaction, is not only suggestive of a lot more death to come, but does seem to link Arya in some way with Summerhall - not literally of course, but her Stark blood.

Towards the end of Heresy 54 I posted the following, which could be relevant to this question:

I've been reading Arya POVs one after another. I've been struck by the number of times a special relationship between her and Jon Snow is mentioned. They look alike, they frequently say the same thing simultaneously, they have a special wargy affinity for wolves. I don't have any thoughts on this other than that she and Jon are somehow going to get together at the climax. Anyone else have thoughts?

[Hrafntýr]

And on a different note, I quite enjoyed reading the Summerhall ideas toward the end of Heresy 54. My personal crackpot (no doubt others share it, but I've not been able to find it with the search function down) is that Mance is the son of Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones, based on nothing more than that his age is right and that bit with his black and red cloak and the fact that his personality is rather like that of Rhaegar. I know. Like the world needs another secret Targaryen. But who knows who or what Jenny of Oldstones was? Such a heritage for Mance would add more significance to the baby currently off with Gilly and Sam, particularly if Dalla had some special status, as speculated by many here.

[Ponys123]

About their link with the valyrian culture, have we entirely ruled out the possibility of cultural trade pre-Doom?

I am pretty sure there was interaction with Essos long before Aegon's conquest, considering that the Storm kings are mentioned somewhere as having fought against Volantis together with the Targs at one point (IIRC).

[Urrax]

... the transposition of Mel in the HBO version...

I haven't seen any of the current season. What's the transposition?

[Black Crow]

OK, for reasons I won't explain to avoid spoilers, Mel turns up at the Brotherhood's camp and bumps into Arya; gives her a very funny look (not quite recoiling) and tells her that she sees the eyes of all the people she's going to kill. The wording's different but essentially its exactly the same as the meeting with the Ghost of High Heart.

[Black Crow]

Although I care about what will happen to Jon for the sake of his own personal trajectory, I think it might be illuminating to consider how the various actors around him at the Wall are likely to respond to his, let's say, critical injury, and to the attack upon him, since this might help to clarify who's who and the nature of their interests.

My take on this one, barring intervention by a cold third party, is that its going to be pretty straightforward. Most of the Watch are going to band together with Mel and the Queen's men, while the Free Folk, including those Mel thinks have been "converted" and some of Jon's friends are going to line up on the other. I suspect that the immediate outcome will see Val leading some of them, and a badly hurt Jon, out of the gate and into the forest to escape the Watch and the Queen's men. Mance is playing some game of his own.

[Urrax]

OK, for reasons I won't explain to avoid spoilers, Mel turns up at the Brotherhood's camp and bumps into Arya; gives her a very funny look (not quite recoiling) and tells her that she sees the eyes of all the people she's going to kill. The wording's different but essentially its exactly the same as the meeting with the Ghost of High Heart.

Thanks. How strange! (Mel says that she, Mel, sees the eyes of all the people she, Arya, is going to kill?)

[Black Crow]

I am pretty sure there was interaction with Essos long before Aegon's conquest, considering that the Storm kings are mentioned somewhere as having fought against Volantis together with the Targs at one point (IIRC).

Yeah, its the Tyrion chapter I mentioned earlier where young Griff is getting bored with Volantine history:

The tigers [the Old Blood of Valyria] held sway for almost a century after the Doom of Valyria. For a time they were successful. A Volantene fleet took Lys and a Volantine army captured Myr, and for two generations all three cities were ruled from within the Bkack Walls. That ended when the tigers tried to swallow Tyrosh. Pentos came into the war on the Tyroshi side, along with the Westerosi Storm King. Braavos provided a lyseni exile with a hundred warships, Aegon Targaryen flew forth from Dragonstone of the Black Dread, and Myr and Lys rose up in rebellion.

A couple of interesting things come out of this. First as I pointed out in Heresy 54 it means the Targaryens were not simply avoiding the Doom but working against the Valyrian Empire and whatever was happening at the heart of it. This is one of the reasons why I suspect Danaerys Targaryen's destiny lies there rather than in Westeros.

Secondly, its only after this "final" defeat of the Valyrian Empire that Aegon turned to conquer Westeros, perhaps because with Valyria defeated he thought it safe to do so, but perhaps there may also be a connection with that Storm King and the Baratheons marrying into the Storm Kings may have occurred or at least been arranged before the conquest. In other words, Aegon used this connection and the upholding of Orrin Baratheon's claim to the Stormlands as a justification for taking Westeros