Heresy 53

[wolfmaid7]

And you have come to very neatly and concisely conclude what the ultimate point of Heresy is. Unless you've been lurking here for a while (as in regularly over the course of the last year), you might not know it, but for quite a while (basically from like Heresy 14/15-Heresy 23 or something outrageous like that) pretty much all we did was argue over the timeline issue. And argue. And argue. And argue some more. It was a contentious time.

The idea of Ice being made of Ice is (I believe) a relatively new one (at least within Heresy). The idea of the Watch being Lightbringer is an old one in Heresy (and one that I am still open to, although I currently don't fully subscribe to it)

:agree:

Yeah, that's about it. This is something that was discussed heavily around Heresies 8-13 or so (the immediate aftermath of the "Icy Sidhe" email).

That everything looks like it will go this route, but in the end it will not.

re the bold: there does not have to be a conflict at all, whatsoever. First off, this is Martin's story and he can do whatever he wants to with it. Regardless of whether it conforms to what our current literary culture defines as "good storytelling" or not doesn't matter at all--if Martin wants it to go one way, it can go that way all it wants. Secondly, in terms of tying together the various (so far relatively unrelated) plot lines, it could simply be a case of paralleling the stories of Dany and Jon with Tyrion and Sansa being the two that connect the dots (I hold that the T-S marriage--which is technically still in force, having not been annulled--is what will ultimately reunited the Seven Kingdoms, and that, alone of all those who will end up being in touch with Dany, Tyrion and Sansa will be the only two to have ever met Jon Snow--with the two possible additions being Sam and Davos).

I recommend taking a month off from life and reading all the Heresies so that you can see how often we cycle back to old topics and how often different people have arrived at our conclusions largely independent of our writings :read: Short of that, yes, H50 is a great place to start given the essays, but going beyond that I would suggest starting at H30 like my impish counterpart plans on doing. It was during the 30s that wolfmaid7 (EDIT: or was it Feather Crystal, formerly Melisandre? don't remember, maybe both :dunno: ) joined us and introduced a lot of the occult/mystical information that we had been lacking. And IIRC it was also during the 30s where we developed my little insight into the Reed's Oath (that being Earth&Water = Nature, Bronze&Iron = Man, and Ice&Fire = Magic).

Damn that's a lot of responses I did :cool4:

That would be me sir hand :cool4: Feather Crystal had some great point too and yes Heresy 30 is a great place to start i think those pages were when we began to have our ahhh moments

[Tyryan Lannister]

yeah,

that was more a personal thing poorly phrased.

i will try again:

If there is no final conflict (i use the term loosely, i cant find the correct word) then i will be dissapointed. i will ask myself what was really the point of sloggin throught all this? what was he (grrm) trying to tell me when he wrote all those words? etc.

if it turns out that there isn't come big conclusion i will probably feel a bit, idunno, cheated. but then again, it is still a fun read.

these are my own feelings on the matter though. it is how and what i think will happen/ should happen/ hope to happen.

Ah...gotcha :cheers:

[Sharf]

Calling all Heresy veterans:

I'm new to this thread, and to the theory crafting ASOIAF in general. Can we put together a compilation of all major theories that have emerged within the heresy thread? It would be a great way to attract more newbies to the thread, and get them up to speed quickly.

If you can point me to the major essays that you can recall, I'll go dig them up and put together a compilation thread or word doc.

[Lord Martin Sheol]

Try reading Heresy 50, the link is at the beginning of this Heresy. There are many essais there, I was just reading them :D I seems it'd also be good to read nº30, according to the veteran's suggestions. Oh, and be very welcome :cheers:

[Mace Cooterian]

Calling all Heresy veterans:

I'm new to this thread, and to the theory crafting ASOIAF in general. Can we put together a compilation of all major theories that have emerged within the heresy thread? It would be a great way to attract more newbies to the thread, and get them up to speed quickly.

If you can point me to the major essays that you can recall, I'll go dig them up and put together a compilation thread or word doc.

Early threads (must reads):

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61905-heresy-6/ Complete Old Nan's Tales

Heresy ten, (with the introduction of the Sidhe) Introduction of the Sidhe

More recently (as already confirmed above); includes several topics (Reed's Oath, etc.):

http://asoiaf.wester...7004-heresy-29/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77373-heresy-30/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77650-heresy-31/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77881-heresy-32/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78112-heresy-33/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78375-heresy-34/

More recently, H41 and H42 where discussions centered around the Black Gate.

Edited for clarity.

[Mace Cooterian]

What a garbled mess?

[Lucifer Lightbringer]

What a garbled mess?

I'm seeing it after your edit, but it's not bad. It's really helpful. They really, really need to get the search function working so that someone like you doesn't have to manually link us to everything like that. Thanks for doing it, though.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Indeed. Thanks Mace.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Early threads (must reads):

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61905-heresy-6/ Complete Old Nan's Tales

Heresy ten, (with the introduction of the Sidhe) Introduction of the Sidhe

More recently (as already confirmed above); includes several topics (Reed's Oath, etc.):

http://asoiaf.wester...7004-heresy-29/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77373-heresy-30/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77650-heresy-31/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77881-heresy-32/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78112-heresy-33/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78375-heresy-34/

More recently, H41 and H42 where discussions centered around the Black Gate.

Edited for clarity.

Thanks alot Mace! It would be great if we can add a few more of the important threads like these and have it added to the OP of Heresy 54.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Using this post to slowly build what I was talking about.

How It All Started:

The Wall, The Watch and A Heresy:

Complete Old Nan's Tales:

Heresy 6:

Others= Sidhe made of ice email and resulting discussion:

Heresy 10:

Heresy 11:

Heresy 12:

Heresy 13:

Extensive Timeline Discussion:

Heresy 14:

Heresy 15:

Heresy 16:

Heresy 17:

Heresy 18: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70972-heresy-18/

Heresy 19: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71492-heresy-19/

Heresy 20: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71971-heresy-20/

Heresy 21: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72274-heresy-21/

Heresy 22: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/73225-heresy-22/

Heresy 23: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/74304-heresy-23/

I'm copying the following, but would like more info on what the topics were in these threads:

several topics (Reed's Oath, etc.):

http://asoiaf.wester...7004-heresy-29/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77373-heresy-30/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77650-heresy-31/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77881-heresy-32/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78112-heresy-33/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78375-heresy-34/

The Black Gate:

Heresy 41: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80556-heresy-41/

Heresy 42 (The Black Watch edition): http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80889-heresy-42-the-black-watch-edition/

I plan on skimming Heresy 35- current to find other important threads to link to. I'm doing all of this from my phone so if anyone can help point me to the correct threads please do :D

[Toccs]

@ 345

sounds about right though. even if it is cut and dry

somehow there has to be a final conflict that ties everything together in some way. we have been reading all the plot lines, many of which never coincide, together for (hopefully) a reason. if there are two or three final conflicts that are mutually exclusive then whats the point of having a big saga. why not a trilogy a bout jon, and a trilogy about dany or something.

how that comes together is what is worth speculating about, i think at least. how is GRRM going to turn fire meets ice on its head? is jon really going to tie it all together? or will he choose a side? stuff like that.

Ah but you see, there doesn't have to be a single all encompassing final conflict that includes all players and wraps up all story lines. Jon and Dany's paths need never cross nor do they even need to be aware of each other for their stories to be interconnected.

Think World War 2, the European theatre and Pacific theatre are essentially two completely separate and self contained stories, and yet you can not understand the whole story of the War without the both of them.

If the point of this tale is to restore balance to the cycle, then Jon and Bran etc can deal with the Ice part of the song in the North and Dany and her crew can deal with the Fire part in Essos (Valyria?) and while the two stories would seem to be entirely separate, each one would be redundant without the other, because achieving balance necessitates that both forces be dealt with.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Ah but you see, there doesn't have to be a single all encompassing final conflict that includes all players and wraps up all story lines. Jon and Dany's paths need never cross nor do they even need to be aware of each other for their stories to be interconnected.

Think World War 2, the European theatre and Pacific theatre are essentially two completely separate and self contained stories, and yet you can not understand the whole story of the War without the both of them.

If the point of this tale is to restore balance to the cycle, then Jon and Bran etc can deal with the Ice part of the song in the North and Dany and her crew can deal with the Fire part in Essos (Valyria?) and while the two stories would seem to be entirely separate, each one would be redundant without the other, because achieving balance necessitates that both forces be dealt with.

If only we could get the main board to think this way :D Sounds so much more like what GRRM would do.

[Toccs]

If only we could get the main board to think this way :D Sounds so much more like what GRRM would do.

Indeed it does, in fact the World War 2 analogy came straight from the Bearded Glacier himself.

[Snow Whyte]

Indeed it does, in fact the World War 2 analogy came straight from the Bearded Glacier himself.

*snort*"Bearded Glacier"

Ah but you see, there doesn't have to be a single all encompassing final conflict that includes all players and wraps up all story lines. Jon and Dany's paths need never cross nor do they even need to be aware of each other for their stories to be interconnected.

Think World War 2, the European theatre and Pacific theatre are essentially two completely separate and self contained stories, and yet you can not understand the whole story of the War without the both of them.

If the point of this tale is to restore balance to the cycle, then Jon and Bran etc can deal with the Ice part of the song in the North and Dany and her crew can deal with the Fire part in Essos (Valyria?) and while the two stories would seem to be entirely separate, each one would be redundant without the other, because achieving balance necessitates that both forces be dealt with.

Mmmm ... I think you may have convinced me of this!

Now, I would kind of like for Dany and Jon to meet (I'm a standard-fantasy sap, what can I say?), but if they never do, I'm still most interested to see how George finishes his story. I think his stated goal is to write something he would like to read, isn't it? And if everything is boringly predictable, that's not especially enjoyable to read. Although, I'm not the sort to argue that if I can figure out where the author may be going or that someone else has written a similar plot point in another book, well, then the book is just trite and crappy. I have no problems with patterns or mirroring, myself. Someone on these boards referred to Dany as Queen Daenerys, the Never-Arriving (perhaps one of you clever heretics?). It would be something if she never did go to Westeros, after all. However, I can't help but recall the vision shown to her of the blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice. If it means what it's popularly believed to mean (Jon at the Wall), then Dany does know of him, thought she doesn't properly know Jon Snow. I always assumed that was a sign that they'd meet, but perhaps it was just a glimpse of her counterpart in restoring the balance to the world. A blooming flower would seem to signify hope (in this case, hope in a very unlikely place); perhaps Jon is the hope for the future (ice preserves), while Daenerys is the cleansing fire (consumed, doing her part). Yeah, this is rambly, sorry. (It's 10 pm, I'm just eating dinner, and there are so many thoughts swirling in my head after reading on these boards. Especially the Heresy threads, which are the most consistent in providing food-for-thought and new ideas.)

[King Tyrion VIII]

Indeed it does, in fact the World War 2 analogy came straight from the Bearded Glacier himself.

This one?

NJM: What new narrators and storylines are you most excited about that you’ve introduced since a Feast for Crows?

GRRM: Hopefully I’m excited about all of them. I’ll let the critics and the fans decide which they like best. They all play a role in the story. I view this as a very large mosaic that I’m weaving here. It’s like the story of World War II, and when you’re writing the story of World War II, you’re writing it from many sides. It’s not just a story about FDR or Hitler, it’s a story about the sergeant leading the charge on D Day beach, it’s the story of the guy at Pearl Harbor seeing the Japanese planes come out of the sunset, it’s the whole world at war. And I’ve created a whole world here and a cast of characters who are showing many different aspects about what is going on with the world.

[Ahri Adaran]

Am working on getting caught up on Heresy reading. The bulk of the ideas here I'm liking a lot, especially the ones about the black gate and human sacrifice. Some bits I'm a bit more leery of:

-Looking to mythology as a road map of the plot not just a source of the setting's metaphysics. For example in Heresy 50 one person said that Ragnarok is coming and that Jon and Mance Ryder would kill each other since Jon is the Jörmungandr and Mance Ryder is Thor. While I'm sure that Martin will use a lot of things from various legends, I don't think that we'll see conversions that straight just like the War of the Five Kings is heavily based on the War of the Roses but that's much more about the personalities than any strict one for one equivalences in the plot.

-I'm liking the ideas about equivalencies on the ice and fire sides of things. Both sides have resurrections (or a sort), both sides have human flesh become changed into their element and so on down the line. However, I'm getting a bit wary of lines of thought that take the basic idea of the white lot and the red lot being equivalent of each other and then start pushing it to make them precise mirror images of each other (the white lot having a kiss of ice that wakes Jon up just as Thoros woke up Dondarrion with a kiss of life, Melisandre having a weakness that functions just like the Others' weakness to obsidian and the like). While equivalent in a lot of ways, I think pushing that equivalence too far might lead people off track, but maybe I'm missing something, I'll keep on reading old threads to see what people are thinking but the main thing that surprised me about Melisandre's POV chapter was how normal and human she seemed, I expected something far more twisted and inhuman when I first started reading it, although it's hard to judge without an other POV chapter while it is clear that her biology has been pretty fundamentally altered, her mind seems a lot more human than those of the Others, based on what we've seen so far.

-“This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was." I'm wondering how much magic is out there that doesn't fall under the aegis of either ice or fire. The Faceless Men seem to be on the ice side of things due to their opposition to Valyria and warging seems to be on the ice side as well, but then the Faceless Men seem to be ignorant of warging. Also if the Wildlings have white priestesses, then why are the Others (the avatars of ice) slaughtering them? Is the magic of the First Men and the Children of the Forest strictly ice? Are weirwoods the symbols of the Others? A lot of stuff to think about and I haven't reached any conclusion on this, will keep on reading stuff in the old threads...

Am starting to write up a post looking at Armageddon Rag, will be long.

[King Tyrion VIII]

:D

Write Like The Wind (George RR Martin)

[Tyryan Lannister]

@ Ahri vis-a-vis magic in ASOIAF: the "official" Heretical view is that there fundamentally is no difference between Ice, Fire, Water, Air, Blood, __________ Magic; at its most basic, all Magic is plain and simply that--Magic. There is only the one. The supposed differences arrive from the wielder of the Magic choosing to allow the Magic into the world through a medium of his/her choice. Hence the Ice, Fire, Water, and Earth folks all being able to resurrect--it is fundamentally the same spell, just manifested differently due to the different histories, experiences, and knowledge bases of the various practitioners.

[Tyryan Lannister]

:D

Write Like The Wind (George RR Martin)

:lol:

[Black Crow]

Ah but you see, there doesn't have to be a single all encompassing final conflict that includes all players and wraps up all story lines. Jon and Dany's paths need never cross nor do they even need to be aware of each other for their stories to be interconnected.

Think World War 2, the European theatre and Pacific theatre are essentially two completely separate and self contained stories, and yet you can not understand the whole story of the War without the both of them.

If the point of this tale is to restore balance to the cycle, then Jon and Bran etc can deal with the Ice part of the song in the North and Dany and her crew can deal with the Fire part in Essos (Valyria?) and while the two stories would seem to be entirely separate, each one would be redundant without the other, because achieving balance necessitates that both forces be dealt with.

I agree both with the analysis and with the suggestion that GRRM revealed something of this in that interview. I really can't get my head around how so many on the wider board are fixated on the battle against Ice and the assumed threat to all mankind from the Otherlanders without recognising that it is the Song of Ice and Fire and that there is an equally potent threat from Fire.