Heresy 53

[Black Crow]

...However, I'm getting a bit wary of lines of thought that take the basic idea of the white lot and the red lot being equivalent of each other and then start pushing it to make them precise mirror images of each other (the white lot having a kiss of ice that wakes Jon up just as Thoros woke up Dondarrion with a kiss of life, Melisandre having a weakness that functions just like the Others' weakness to obsidian and the like). While equivalent in a lot of ways, I think pushing that equivalence too far might lead people off track, but maybe I'm missing something, I'll keep on reading old threads to see what people are thinking but the main thing that surprised me about Melisandre's POV chapter was how normal and human she seemed, I expected something far more twisted and inhuman when I first started reading it, although it's hard to judge without an other POV chapter while it is clear that her biology has been pretty fundamentally altered, her mind seems a lot more human than those of the Others, based on what we've seen so far...

I think some of this is going to have to wait until we encounter more of the Otherlanders in TWoW because thus far we have very little to go on in comparing and contrasting. That Mel is no longer human is pretty clear from our analysis of the text; that her POV seemed human is probably down to her being turned while still alive and in this context its worth looking at the disconnect in Victarion's mind. His arm at least has been altered and on the outside looks like pork crackling, splits and smokes. Yet that doesn't seem to bother him, almost as if he sees it but isn't aware that its strange.

As to Jon, who I don't believe to be AA but ultimately representing the other side, I don't see an icy kiss resurrection because all that produces is wights; the question really is whether he survives his wounds and remains human as might be suggested by that throwaway remark about running through the forest, or whether he is turned. I suppose part of the bittersweet ending could be both; that he's patched up in the meantime but ultimately...

[King Tyrion VIII]

Above post condensed for an OP by linking back to that post for most links.

How It All Started:

The Wall, The Watch and A Heresy:

Complete Old Nan's Tales:

Heresy 6:

Others= Sidhe made of ice email and resulting discussion:

Heresy 10-13: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/86430-heresy-53/page__st__360#entry4427128

Extensive Timeline Discussion:

Heresy 14-23: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/86430-heresy-53/page__st__360#entry4427128

Reed Oath and several topics:

Heresy 29-34: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/86430-heresy-53/page__st__360#entry4427128

The Black Gate:

Heresy 41+ Heresy 42 (The Black Watch edition): http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/86430-heresy-53/page__st__360#entry4427128

Edit: And it's page 20 so I must throw in my suggestion for the next thread to be titled:

Heresy 54, Where Are You?

It's a reference to Car 54, Where Are You?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_54,_Where_Are_You%3F

Or there's always Studio 54: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_54

[Black Crow]

Thanks for that, I'll post it immediately under the OP when 54 gets started later on today.

Not sure about the suggested title though; these days "where are you" normally refers to Scooby Doo.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Thanks for that, I'll post it immediately under the OP when 54 gets started later on today.

Not sure about the suggested title though; these days "where are you" normally refers to Scooby Doo.

Awesome, glad I could help. Yeah most people wouldn't get the reference, just thought it was a cool idea.

[Black Crow]

It occurs to me, in one of those blinding flashes that occurs from time to time, that ultimately Azor Ahai (whoever he or she might turn out to be) is being paraded as the champion of R'hllor, the Lord of Light and of Fire.

We've established that the agents of Fire; Mel, Moqorro and unwittingly Victarion, are themselves Fire made Flesh. Does it not follow therefore that their champion Azor Ahai must in turn be "reborn" as Fire made Flesh, and that simply tapping the chosen one on the shoulder, handing over a flaming sword and telling him or her to go out and fight the good fight isn't enough.

Would all those who are so keen to promote say Jon as Azor Ahai reborn would be quite so keen if they realised it meant turning him into a fire demon?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Awesome, glad I could help. Yeah most people wouldn't get the reference, just thought it was a cool idea.

Bless you, that was a lot if work! Should be very helpful for those of us trying to catch up :)

As far as the reference goes- I got it, but most wouldn't. Kind of like when GRRM said "the Shadow knows" in response to a question about Jon's parents. He was making a silly cultural reference to a radio show and series of pulp novels from the 1930s but it sent people scurrying around looking for hints from Asshai, of all places. :D

[Melifeather]

It was during the 30s that wolfmaid7 (EDIT: or was it Feather Crystal, formerly Melisandre? don't remember, maybe both :dunno: ) joined us and introduced a lot of the occult/mystical information that we had been lacking. And IIRC it was also during the 30s where we developed my little insight into the Reed's Oath (that being Earth&Water = Nature, Bronze&Iron = Man, and Ice&Fire = Magic).

It's just nice to be remembered....even if incorrectly. :D

My knowledge, albeit limited, is astrology and the Bible....even if I am agnostic.

I plan on skimming Heresy 35- current to find other important threads to link to. I'm doing all of this from my phone so if anyone can help point me to the correct threads please do :D

:stunned:

As to Jon, who I don't believe to be AA but ultimately representing the other side, I don't see an icy kiss resurrection because all that produces is wights; the question really is whether he survives his wounds and remains human as might be suggested by that throwaway remark about running through the forest, or whether he is turned. I suppose part of the bittersweet ending could be both; that he's patched up in the meantime but ultimately...

Even though I am hanging onto the hope that Jon survives his wounds, you could interpret GRRM's words about "Jon running through the woods" as him being inside Ghost his direwolf. Speaking of which, everytime on the show they talk about "skinchanging" they always say "warg" regardless of who's doing it, like Orell. I think of Tyryan everytime!

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

It occurs to me, in one of those blinding flashes that occurs from time to time, that ultimately Azor Ahai (whoever he or she might turn out to be) is being paraded as the champion of R'hllor, the Lord of Light and of Fire.

We've established that the agents of Fire; Mel, Moqorro and unwittingly Victarion, are themselves Fire made Flesh. Does it not follow therefore that their champion Azor Ahai must in turn be "reborn" as Fire made Flesh, and that simply tapping the chosen one on the shoulder, handing over a flaming sword and telling him or her to go out and fight the good fight isn't enough.

Would all those who are so keen to promote say Jon as Azor Ahai reborn would be quite so keen if they realised it meant turning him into a fire demon?

Well there's the theory that someone already mentioned about Stannis already being brought back to life...

Even if it doesn't make Stannis Azor, that seems the type of thing Melissandre would do if she could.

[Black Crow]

Well there's the theory that someone already mentioned about Stannis already being brought back to life...

Even if it doesn't make Stannis Azor, that seems the type of thing Melissandre would do if she could.

I really don't know where that particular theory came from. There's absolutely no evidence to back it up at either end. There's no mention of him getting wounded or even a urmour of his death on the Blackwater. Mel wasn't there so its not something she could have done quietly in a corner where nobody was looking even if she wanted to - and if she did do it wouldn't that be further public proof of her powers and of Stannis' status?

At no point thereafter does either of them betray any hint of his being dead and brought back again. All we have got is his haggard and exhausted mien and quite honestly after everything he's been through it would be pretty suspicious if he didn't look a but scuffed around the edges.

As I said, given that Mel, Moqorro, Victarion and for all we know Uncle Tom Cobbley and all have been turned into Fire made Flesh in order to serve the Lord of Light it would be pretty astonishing if the ultimate servant, Azor Ahai didn't require to be reborn as Fire made Flesh

[armidil0]

As I said, given that Mel, Moqorro, Victarion and for all we know Uncle Tom Cobbley and all have been turned into Fire made Flesh in order to serve the Lord of Light it would be pretty astonishing if the ultimate servant, Azor Ahai didn't require to be reborn as Fire made Flesh

There is nothing that says he has to. I think Mel & co. are fire made flesh simply to prolong their life. We haven't really observed it giving them any special powers or anything of that sort.

[Black Crow]

You mean other than being immune to poisons (and I suspect edged weapons) and not requiring food, water or sleep. :cool4:

[Tyryan Lannister]

Even though I am hanging onto the hope that Jon survives his wounds, you could interpret GRRM's words about "Jon running through the woods" as him being inside Ghost his direwolf. Speaking of which, everytime on the show they talk about "skinchanging" they always say "warg" regardless of who's doing it, like Orell. I think of Tyryan everytime!

:cool4:

[Tyryan Lannister]

The one thing that makes me trepidacious about going in the AAR = Fire Made Flesh route is that the original AA was a known dragonslayer; as such, it would make since for his "reincarnated" form to also be a dragonslayer. Outside of a FMF somehow coming to control a dragon and thus engage in a Dance of Dragons that results in at least one of Dany's trio getting killed, I don't see a FMF slaying any dragons.

Now, to that point, IF AAR is indeed a FMF, in order to keep with the tradition of AA having been a dragonslayer, the person who is currently in the best position to fulfill all these requirements is Victarion.

So, yes, putting it out there: Victarion is Azor Ahai Reborn???? :dunno:

EDIT: spell

[King Tyrion VIII]

I'm not into the idea that Azor Ahai MUST be Fire made flesh.

BC, I think you got it when you said Dany will be Azor Ahai by being reborn in salt and smoke when she traverses the Smoking Sea and goes to Valyria.

But with that crowd we do have some possibilities. Vic is Fire made flesh so he could become Azor Ahai while going to Valyria with Dany. Or maybe Marwyn is the one that convinces Dany to go to Valyria and maybe he knows a way to make her Fire made flesh without her dying.

[Black Crow]

All things are possible and Marwyn certainly has some kind of role to play here, although as we've been discussing the transformation into Fire made Flesh seems to involve live subjects rather than dead ones, doesn't obviously kill them in the process, and appears to leave them oblivious to just how much they have changed.

Dany seems a perfect candidate, and arguably she may need to turn in order to survive long enough in Valyria to do what she has to do. Similarly if the Land of Always Winter is as unhospitable as its cracked up to be, then Jon might need to turn in order to go up there.

And with that I think we might as well call it on Heresy 53 - Long live Heresy 54.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Submitting for a lock--please send further discussion to 54. Thank you.