Heresy 56

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 56, this week’s edition of the popular and fast moving thread looking at what may be really happening in the Song of Ice and Fire.

When the thread cycle first started way back in late 2011 it had the heresy tag because we challenged the then orthodoxy that the Others were the ultimate enemy who would eventually be defeated by the Starks and the Targaryen dragons. Instead, although we’re mainly interested in discussing northern-related matters we reject the assumption that the sole threat to Westeros comes from the Others. This is the Song of Ice and Fire; the Otherlanders represent only one side of that conflict and there is an equally dangerous threat posed by Fire.

Thus we question popular assumptions that the Others are evil incarnate, that the Children of the Forest are the good guys who once fought alongside the First Men and will teach Bran how to defeat the Others. We also doubt that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai and a dragon rider and laugh at the timelines.

Instead, prompted by the clues, Easter eggs and cookies which litter the text, we look at the Celtic and Norse mythological sources which underpin the magic, and try to understand the nature of the protagonists. GRRM once likened the Others to the Sidhe made of ice – a point graphically illustrated in the current HBO version, which exactly mirrors what we’ve discovered of Mel, Moqorro and Victarion, revealing all three as being Fire made flesh, exactly equal to and opposite those protagonists of Ice – the Otherlanders with weirwood faces.

And then there’s the Wall, which we believe is not a defensive structure at all but the boundary between the Realms of Men and the magic Otherlands beyond. It was raised and maintained by great magic, and is not improbably the cause of the Long Night. It is, according to Ygritte, evil and made of blood as well as Ice. Thus we suspect the Wall must come down to achieve a resolution of the conflict and restore the balance of the seasons and everything else, for to quote Janet Clouston: “Blood built it, Blood stopped the building of it, and Blood will bring it down”

In doing that, Jon may destined to bridle the Ice as King of Winter, while Danaerys Targaryen, once popularly tipped as his partner, may instead have to go back – to where the Targaryens and their dragons came from - into the smoke and salt of the Smoking Sea of Valyria to sort out the Fire.

All of these theories are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun, but we do reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed and that the children are not so cuddly as they pretend.

We’ve long since given up providing links to previous heresies since it moves so damn quickly, but in honour of the occasion Heresy 50 contained a series of essays looking at a number of topics in more detail.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84200-heresy-50/

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction, but if you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all, not to mention the astonishing speed with which it moves, and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

All that we ask as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[The_Undying]

As I've remarked before, the one thing we can reasonably be sure of is that the Children are not on the same side as Mel the weirwood burning pyromaniac, but that doesn't necessarily equate with them being intent on wiping out all mankind.

I think it's also safe to assume that their goal (or at least one of their goals) is to get some land back to live in. Given their current (apparent) situation and all... Something like a pact-like state in the North maybe.

Regarding their opposition to fire: I think that's mainly due to fire taking the side of Men, so fire is really driving the conflict here. I'm not sure they would otherwise care all that much about the Fire lot atm, since they have much more pressing problems.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Heresy 56! Woohoo! :commie:

As you were, ladies and gents.

Look for my summary and analysis of the Red Wedding et al in a few hours.

[Boulderbum]

Heresy 56! Woohoo! :commie:

As you were, ladies and gents.

Look for my summary and analysis of the Red Wedding et al in a few hours.

No episode this week. Sorry for the bad news.

[Tyryan Lannister]

No episode this week. Sorry for the bad news.

yeah just read that... fucking bullshit. \

"there's an American holiday this weekend, which will mean that our ratings will be down, so we won't air it. But we absolutely LOVE the fact that we are the most illegally downloaded thing ever, which is both a loss in ratings and money, but whatever"

Sometimes I really, really hate the stupid fucking for profit only entertainment industry (and I am in that field why? God damn it all...)

[wolfmaid7]

It seems we must depend on others that have seen it to catch us up on any heretic happenings.

[SerDuck]

In order to keep making the show they have to make money. In order to make money, people need to watch the show. It's a big vacation holiday in America this weekend, therefore it makes perfect sense they wouldn't air the show.

[Boulderbum]

In order to keep making the show they have to make money. In order to make money, people need to watch the show. It's a big vacation holiday in America this weekend, therefore it makes perfect sense they wouldn't air the show.

We are getting off topic, but the cynic would argue that HBO set itself up perfectly for "holiday weekends" with HBOGo. Not only can shows be watched from alternate/remote locations, but they can also be played on demand later.

Bandwidth is much more expensive than broadcasting the show to viewers...

Back on topic, on my vacation I re-listened to the ADWD audiobook & wanted to bring up some random thoughts/questions.

On Jon's tour of the food stores at Castle Black, the meat is said to be kept in the coldest chambers, BELOW the wall. No foundation under that giant thing?!? Definitely a magical barrier, rather than physical.

The gray men that Tyrian encounters provided interesting contrast to the wights outside Brans cave. GRRM seemed to use similar imagery in describing movement/motivation for both cursed lots. Since grayscale turns the flesh to stone, the obvious connection is with earth magic? However it is Garin's curse (he drowned 250,000 men as a last ditch effort for the Rhoynar to try to stop the Valyrians.) Our white priestess Val seems to fear/understand the disease more than most... Could Val's disgust go back to the conflict between the First Men and the invading Andals/Rhoynar? Did they bring disease with them as well?

I'll stop rambling here for now. But I do feel that GRRM deliberately contrasted the wights/gray folk.

[Black Crow]

It seems we must depend on others that have seen it to catch us up on any heretic happenings.

Public holiday over here too so no episode. Can't really complain, last week's confirmation of the Ice made flesh was the biggest thing since the collection of the baby from Craster's in the last series.

[Black Crow]

The gray men that Tyrian encounters provided interesting contrast to the wights outside Brans cave. GRRM seemed to use similar imagery in describing movement/motivation for both cursed lots. Since grayscale turns the flesh to stone, the obvious connection is with earth magic? However it is Garin's curse (he drowned 250,000 men as a last ditch effort for the Rhoynar to try to stop the Valyrians.) Our white priestess Val seems to fear/understand the disease more than most... Could Val's disgust go back to the conflict between the First Men and the invading Andals/Rhoynar? Did they bring disease with them as well?

Its certainly possible there's a Rhoynar connection with greyscale in Westeros, although given its lack of prominence thus far one has to wonder where Shireen caught it. I do have a recollection of an SSM in which GRRM suggested that disease may be a problem in future and Val's reaction suggests he may have been referring to greyscale in particular rather than starvation and disease in general.

The lack of prominence also makes Val's knowledge of it more intriguing. One would have thought that given the comparative warmth of the Rhoyne, where Jon Connington and a lot of other people catch it, that the pathogen might as is often the case be inhibited by cold in which case the Winter might actually save Westeros in the end - although that doesn't explain Val's jumpiness.

[alienarea]

Its certainly possible there's a Rhoynar connection with greyscale in Westeros, although given its lack of prominence thus far one has to wonder where Shireen caught it. I do have a recollection of an SSM in which GRRM suggested that disease may be a problem in future and Val's reaction suggests he may have been referring to greyscale in particular rather than starvation and disease in general.

The lack of prominence also makes Val's knowledge of it more intriguing. One would have thought that given the comparative warmth of the Rhoyne, where Jon Connington and a lot of other people catch it, that the pathogen might as is often the case be inhibited by cold in which case the Winter might actually save Westeros in the end - although that doesn't explain Val's jumpiness.

Don't know how to word it but could greyscale be what turns a mist into a White Walker?

[Black Crow]

Nah, really don't see it, they are two completely different things.

[alienarea]

Nah, really don't see it, they are two completely different things.

I just wondered why Val is so scared of it. Is this from her possible connection to the moonsingers then, I don't recall if Bravos has ties to Rhoyne?

[Hrafntýr]

Errg, I just lost a long post of greyscale, which I'll try to recapture here:

So, I've been thinking about greyscale ever since I saw Shireen's case on the TV series. They made her skin to look decidedly reptilian. It calls to mind the fact that Dany's dragon eggs were thought to be petrified, the ideas of waking the stone dragons at Dragonstone, and the fact that the dragon skulls beneath the Red Keep are said to be like onyx, another stone.

More interesting is what we learn in the books about the mythology surrounding greyscale. The Shrouded Lord/Grey Grace lives in the mists of the Sorrows, and transmits greyscale via the "grey kiss." Duck relates a version of the Shrouded Lord's story in which he was once a statue who was kissed to life by a grey lady "with lips as cold as ice." The mists of the Sorrows are said by Ysilla to be sorcerous, and even Tyrion, usually so skeptical of magic, agrees that the fog is not natural. Ysilla says, "there are restless spirits in the air here and tormented souls beneath the waters." She also says, "The whispering dead hate the warm and quick and ever seek for more damned souls to join them." Sound like anyone we know? Those affected with greyscale do seem to resemble the wights, insofar as they seem less than human and insensitive to pain.

Even more interesting is the fact that the story of Garin, said by many to be the Shrouded Lord, involves the men of Volantis and Valyria who

hung Garin in a golden cage and made mock as he called upon his Mother to destroy them. But in the night the waters rose and drowned them, and from that day to this they have not rested. They are down there still beneath the water, they who were once the lords of fire. Their cold breath rises from the murk to make these fogs, and their flesh has turned as stony as their hearts.

As for knowledge of greyscale among the wildlings, it is said to be prevalent in cold, damp climates, like Dragonstone, but also presumably the north in general. Childhood cases seem to confer lifetime immunity to the deadly adult form of the disease, and to the plague.

Val's aversion, or even fear of the disease is interesting. It seems to me that she has a sense of it as religiously polluting, not just polluting in a contagious disease sort of way, since it doesn't seem as if the childhood form is contagious. I wonder if there isn't a wildling memory of a greyscale plague, which might have produced masses of wight-like walking grey men.

[Urrax]

Getting back to wolfmaid7's very interesting point about the left hand, I wonder whether in addition to Jon and Arya, Jaime's loss of his right hand may come into the picture.

[WindsOfWinter]

Errg, I just lost a long post of greyscale, which I'll try to recapture here:

So, I've been thinking about greyscale ever since I saw Shireen's case on the TV series. They made her skin to look decidedly reptilian. It calls to mind the fact that Dany's dragon eggs were thought to be petrified, the ideas of waking the stone dragons at Dragonstone, and the fact that the dragon skulls beneath the Red Keep are said to be like onyx, another stone.

More interesting is what we learn in the books about the mythology surrounding greyscale. The Shrouded Lord/Grey Grace lives in the mists of the Sorrows, and transmits greyscale via the "grey kiss." Duck relates a version of the Shrouded Lord's story in which he was once a statue who was kissed to life by a grey lady "with lips as cold as ice." The mists of the Sorrows are said by Ysilla to be sorcerous, and even Tyrion, usually so skeptical of magic, agrees that the fog is not natural. Ysilla says, "there are restless spirits in the air here and tormented souls beneath the waters." She also says, "The whispering dead hate the warm and quick and ever seek for more damned souls to join them." Sound like anyone we know? Those affected with greyscale do seem to resemble the wights, insofar as they seem less than human and insensitive to pain.

Even more interesting is the fact that the story of Garin, said by many to be the Shrouded Lord, involves the men of Volantis and Valyria who

As for knowledge of greyscale among the wildlings, it is said to be prevalent in cold, damp climates, like Dragonstone, but also presumably the north in general. Childhood cases seem to confer lifetime immunity to the deadly adult form of the disease, and to the plague.

Val's aversion, or even fear of the disease is interesting. It seems to me that she has a sense of it as religiously polluting, not just polluting in a contagious disease sort of way, since it doesn't seem as if the childhood form is contagious. I wonder if there isn't a wildling memory of a greyscale plague, which might have produced masses of wight-like walking grey men.

Reminds me of the "dead things in the water" Cotter Pyke informed Jon Snow of at Hardhome.

[Capt. Zemblanity]

Val says that greyscale is always deadly north of the wall, but it isn't clear if this is because those children are given the gift of mercy or because the disease is stronger there. Her aversion is so strong that she does not want Monster in the same tower as the 'dead girl'. Is it so contagious? I don't recall where Shireen contracted the disease from? Is Patchface a carrier?

[addicted to snow]

Dragonstone's damp, wet climate is what Shireen's illness was attributed to in the books... There is certainly more to Greyscale than has been revealed to we readers thus far... I believe that it will play a more significant role in future books.

Val told Jon to ask a woods-witch if he wanted to know the truth (about greyscale), which suggest that Val gained her knowledge on the subject from a woods-witch. Val also kept referring to Shireen as 'the dead girl', for whatever reason.

We all know that 'what is dead may never die'... I firmly believe that Tyrion, Sam, & Davos all have some sort of 'protection' because they have all been drowned, and I feel that this 'protection' will be very important at some point in the series... As unfortunate as it is, perhaps having Greyscale will offer Shireen & Jon Connington some similar sort of benefit or 'protection' in the future... I know that she doesn't have it simply to make her a more interesting character, there is definitely something to her affliction...

[Black Crow]

Don't remember the reference to asking a woods witch, but I would have thought that in the context Val would have been speaking ironically in the sense that its something any woods-witch/healer could tell him if he only troubled to ask. As to the "dead" girl, I took that as being in the sense of walking dead; she's already dead but doesn't know it yet, she's doomed.

[Black Crow]

Val says that greyscale is always deadly north of the wall, but it isn't clear if this is because those children are given the gift of mercy or because the disease is stronger there. Her aversion is so strong that she does not want Monster in the same tower as the 'dead girl'. Is it so contagious? I don't recall where Shireen contracted the disease from? Is Patchface a carrier?

Its obviously not been contagious so far, but it may well be one of those pathogens that lies dormant until the climatic conditions are right and then breaks out violently. Winter can be tricky in this regard. Out in the open its crisp and clean, but huddled indoors it can be damp and dirty.