Sansa Stark and Arya Stark relationship

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Arya has no way of knowing that Sansa told Cersei of her father's plans but didn't expect him to be killed, all she knows is she was there on the dais (?) when he died. Then she stayed around at court... it's possible Arya could put two and two together and make five, sure. But the same rumour mill that tells her how Sansa spoke to Cersei will also tell her how Sansa poisoned Joffrey, so... I dunno. Probably not. Personally I think they're due for a reconciliation, but that could be the same type of wishful thinking I had right before the Red Wedding...

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

1. Sansa didn't contributed to Lady's death. It was beyond her reach, and nothing she could have said would change the fact Cersei wanted direwolves dead.

Whether Cersei wanted the wolves dead isn't the issue. Cersei isn't the one who gives the order, or had the authority to give the order, to have Lady killed. Only the King (or Hand) could do that. And had Sansa not lied by saying "I don't know, I don't remember, I didn't see", and told the truth instead, it is entirely possible (highly likely IMHO) that Robert would not have ordered Lady killed.

3. Sansa played small role in her father's arrest. there is a long list of people who participated in Ned's demise, so we can't blame it entirely on Sansa.

She doesn't get all the blame, nor is she blameless.

[Dicer]

They're all the family each other have. Arya would forgive Sansa in a heartbeat, and run to her in tears with open arms. I hope to read that scene in one of the upcoming novels.

Not quite. Arya knows that she still has an elder brother left whom she loves above all. She also has two younger brothers that she cares for dearly. I think there is a good chance that she will run across atleast one of them before she meets Sansa.

Regarding their sibling rivalry. Sansa saw Joffrey try to kill Arya and still sided with Joffrey over her sister. And Arya knows this. Arya may have forgiven Sansa for that, but I just wanted to point out that Arya and Sansa's differences in KL were not just 'ordinary sibling rivalry'. There were more serious issues at play there.

I don't think Arya will ever try to kill Sansa or wish her harm, but I don't see them becoming all that close in the future. They have become different people with different interests and goals. They have always been too different, right from the start. Martin created Sansa as a foil for Arya and the rest of the Starks.

I still think there will be some kind of Stark rivalry in the future. With Sansa/LF on one side and maybe Rickon/Bran/Jon on the other. And if that happens Arya will most definitely side with her brothers.

[Goodbye World]

The way I see the Lady incident is, there is no such thing as "the wolf was defending it's owner" when an animal attacks the crown prince, even if Sansa had spoken up and told the truth she would have still said that Nymeria attacked Joffrey and Cersei would demand that she be killed anyway.

Wolf attacks crown prince, wolf dies. It's as simple as that IMO. You can of course ask why the hell would Lady be killed since she had nothing to do with the attack in the first place, but the fact that Lady was substituted for Nymeria cannot be blamed on Sansa in any way, you can ask Robert, Cersei, and Ned about that.

As for Arya killing Sansa, not gonna happen.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

The way I see the Lady incident is, there is no such thing as "the wolf was defending it's owner" when an animal attacks the crown prince, even if Sansa had spoken up and told the truth she would have still said that Nymeria attacked Joffrey and Cersei would demand that she be killed anyway.

Wolf attacks crown prince, wolf dies. It's as simple as that IMO. You can of course ask why the hell would Lady be killed since she had nothing to do with the attack in the first place, but the fact that Lady was substituted for Nymeria cannot be blamed on Sansa in any way, you can ask Robert, Cersei, and Ned about that.

I don't think it as simple as that when the direwolf belongs to the Hand, and was protecting the daughter of the Hand. I could just hear Ned -- "you'd expect Joffrey's dog (Sandor) to defend him if attacked unjustly, wouldn't you?"

The court reaction to Joffrey's getting "beaten up" by Arya seemed to lose him a lot of sympathy among the nobles -- even Robert, and the only reason Robert agreed to Cersei's request is that he really didn't have a good answer for her. "It was just defending the girl" is a pretty good answer. And I think if it was clear that Lady had done nothing wrong, and that it was just defending Arya, Ned would not have given in on this. I think that if anything was done about Lady, it would have been an order that she wasn't allowed in the castle, or perhaps must be sent to Winterfell.

Ned really had more cards to play here than did Cersei, but Sansa's lie left him with no choice.

[Errant Bard]

Whether Cersei wanted the wolves dead isn't the issue. Cersei isn't the one who gives the order, or had the authority to give the order, to have Lady killed. Only the King (or Hand) could do that. And had Sansa not lied by saying "I don't know, I don't remember, I didn't see", and told the truth instead, it is entirely possible (highly likely IMHO) that Robert would not have ordered Lady killed.

Reread the scene, Cersei does give the order, actually, and the wolf thing has nothing to do with Sansa not remembering. What Sansa bails from is contradicting Joffrey when he says Arya and Mycah attacked Joffrey, set Nymeria on him and threw his sword in the river. It is not Nymeria who's the subject at that moment, it's Arya.

Snippets:

"The girl is as wild as that filthy animal of hers," Cersei Lannister said. "Robert, I want her punished."

"Seven hells," Robert swore. "Cersei, look at her. She's a child. What would you have me do, whip her through the streets? Damn it, children fight. It's over. No lasting harm was done."

The queen was furious. "Joff will carry those scars for the rest of his life."

Robert Baratheon looked at his eldest son. "So he will. Perhaps they will teach him a lesson. Ned, see that your daughter is disciplined. I will do the same with my son."

This is AFTER they tell their stories, after Arya lays into Sansa. Note how Arya goes scott-free despite being totally guilty of assaulting the crown prince when he had done nothing to her.

And then:

Robert started to walk away, but the queen was not done. "And what of the direwolf?" she called after him. "What of the beast that savaged your son?"

[...]

The king was in no mood for more argument. "Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

There you have it, what Sansa said has no relevance whatsoever. Joffrey is hurt, and the wolves are savage beasts. It's not about what happened, Lady never bit anyone and they all know it. Cersei's argument does not segue from anything the girls said, it's a consequence only of Joffrey's wound, it would never have changed.

Ned was driven by narrative necessity, but to argue he could have done more if Sansa said something is occulting the fact that he could have done more right there: he defies Cersei over the pelt already, but for some reason he still kills Lady.

Speaking of that, I wonder what is done to dogs who bite children to the bone during a kid squabble, nowadays.

[juanml82]

Arya has no way of knowing that Sansa told Cersei of her father's plans but didn't expect him to be killed, all she knows is she was there on the dais (?) when he died. Then she stayed around at court... it's possible Arya could put two and two together and make five, sure. But the same rumour mill that tells her how Sansa spoke to Cersei will also tell her how Sansa poisoned Joffrey, so... I dunno. Probably not. Personally I think they're due for a reconciliation, but that could be the same type of wishful thinking I had right before the Red Wedding...

IIRC, she also heard Sansa cry when Ned was killed though.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Reread the scene, Cersei does give the order, actually,

You're wrong. Cersei doesn't give the order, as your own quote shows. She asks Robert about what happens to the direwolf, and then Robert gives the order.

and the wolf thing has nothing to do with Sansa not remembering.

Sure it does, because Sansa lying made it look like Nymeria was not provoked at all, but simply attacked Joffrey for no reason at all. A direwolf that would attack the Crown Prince (or anyone else) for no reason is dangerous. But if it is established that Joffrey attacked Arya, and Nymeria was coming to Arya's defense the entire thing takes on a completely different context. And that's why Ned could have rejoined with "You'd expect Joffrey's Dog to defend him, wouldn't you?"

Sansa's lie that she didn't remember or didn't see what happened is what made the direwolves look so dangerous.

Ned was driven by narrative necessity, but to argue he could have done more if Sansa said something is occulting the fact that he could have done more right there: he defies Cersei over the pelt already, but for some reason he still kills Lady.

The "some reason" he killed Lady is that Sansa's lie deprived him of the ability to argue that the Numeria was just defending Arya. Based on what Robert knew (because Sansa lied when she said she didn't know what happened), the direwolves were dangerous and as Robert said, "sooner or late it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son."

[Fire and Lemoncakes]

Huh, Arya was the aggressor, so the "it was just defence" argument doesn't really hold.

Anyway, the wolf pelt was bargained out beforehand between Cersei and Bob, independent from the results of the trial against Arya.

[Mladen]

Whether Cersei wanted the wolves dead isn't the issue. Cersei isn't the one who gives the order, or had the authority to give the order, to have Lady killed. Only the King (or Hand) could do that. And had Sansa not lied by saying "I don't know, I don't remember, I didn't see", and told the truth instead, it is entirely possible (highly likely IMHO) that Robert would not have ordered Lady killed.

OK, I don't want to turn this into another "Sansa killed Lady" discussion. Point here is, Nymeria bit Joffrey, Robert never intended to punish children, so wolves were the one to pay. After he gives command, Sansa is literally begging for her life. Just imagine that scene, 11 year-old girl begging in tears in open court and you reject her, knowingly that your son is lying, that girl was brought in impossible situation of doing your job. I mean, what kind of King does that? Robert showed his worst here.

She doesn't get all the blame, nor is she blameless.

I agree regarding arrest, but not execution. For execution she is totally blameless. for arrest she plays some part, far from the most important, but nonetheless had a role in it. But, we should separate arrest and execution, for Ned wasn't supposed to die.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Anyway, the wolf pelt was bargained out beforehand between Cersei and Bob,

Huh?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

11 year-old girl begging in tears in open court and you reject her, knowingly that your son is lying, that girl was brought in impossible situation of doing your job. I mean, what kind of King does that? Robert showed his worst here.

He doesn't know that. Or at least, he doesn't have enough evidence to say it is true.

In any case, Lady's death shouldn't generate any animosity towards Sansa on Arya's part, because it wasn't her direwold that got killed. What Arya might resent is when Sansa subsequently said "your butcher's boy attacked the prince", when Sansa knows that is false, and when Arya is still upset that her friend is dead.

[AryaSnark]

You do understand this is Arya we're talking about, right?

Yeah... I don't so much see the "running to each other crying" thing happening, but I do think Arya would be pretty relieved to see her sister, and I think they would be able to get past their earlier differences. Nearly every time one has thought about the other since they were separated, it's been fondly or with worry (one exception being when Arya thought Sansa would pretend not to know her if Sansa saw her all dirty and bedraggled like she was when she was trekking through the countryside with Yoren and company). I just wonder if Sansa will actually recognize her (whether she's wearing Arya's face or someone else's).

[Mladen]

He doesn't know that. Or at least, he doesn't have enough evidence to say it is true.

In any case, Lady's death shouldn't generate any animosity towards Sansa on Arya's part, because it wasn't her direwold that got killed. What Arya might resent is when Sansa subsequently said "your butcher's boy attacked the prince", when Sansa knows that is false, and when Arya is still upset that her friend is dead.

But, we see Sansa resolving both of those issues with herself. Late, yes, but she no longer holds any grudge against Arya for what's done to Lady, nor she does think Mycah deserved death. If they meet, those issues will be easily resolved given that Sansa knows that she was mistaken.

[Errant Bard]

You're wrong. Cersei doesn't give the order, as your own quote shows. She asks Robert about what happens to the direwolf, and then Robert gives the order.

Uh, no, the question is entirely rhetorical, she offers gold for Nymeria, and says she will have a pelt, and when Robert makes fun of her, she says there is a wolf right here. She calls the shots. What Robert does is only not going against her.

Sure it does, because Sansa lying made it look like Nymeria was not provoked at all, but simply attacked Joffrey for no reason at all. A direwolf that would attack the Crown Prince (or anyone else) for no reason is dangerous. But if it is established that Joffrey attacked Arya, and Nymeria was coming to Arya's defense the entire thing takes on a completely different context. And that's why Ned could have rejoined with "You'd expect Joffrey's Dog to defend him, wouldn't you?"

Sansa's lie that she didn't remember or didn't see what happened is what made the direwolves look so dangerous.

Preposterous, Arya told her her story, so they all know what happened, Ned could already have argued about self-defense from there, but it's irrelevant anyway, because what you say is flat wrong: nobody there argues Nymeria attacked for no reason at all, even Joffrey says that it was Arya that set her wolf on Joffrey. The supposed "get out of jail free" that Ned supposedly could have whipped out if Sansa had backed Arya was already there: "You'd expect Joffrey's Dog to obey him, wouldn't you?"

That, and the fact that Arya IS guilty of attacking Joffrey. She broke her stick on his head, by surprise and from behind.

You insist on a subtlety with no meaning.

The "some reason" he killed Lady is that Sansa's lie deprived him of the ability to argue that the Numeria was just defending Arya. Based on what Robert knew (because Sansa lied when she said she didn't know what happened), the direwolves were dangerous and as Robert said, "sooner or late it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son."

Did she lie now? As it happens, we have at least one example from her PoV where special memories don't match reality. And then under stress, between a rock and hard place, some people have been known to have a blank.

Anyway, are you arguing that Nymeria did not turn on Joffrey? She did. Are you arguing that Lady would NOT have turned on Joffrey? She would have. Are you arguing that anyone would have said or admitted that Joffrey, the crown prince, did not have a right to play with smallfolk or any other people, or defend himself, and deserved being mutilated by wolves for it? Really now? even the White Bull was of the opinion that the royals have every right, and among the cast, the only one who would disagree would be Jaime Lannister, but heh, he was not on the wolves' side that time.

ETA: Note that I am not arguing that lying is not a bad thing to do, or that not backing Arya was good, I am just saying that Sansa's input would not have meant anything in the face of the feudal social norms and traditions ruling this encounter between Ned and Cersei.

[AryaSnark]

Huh, Arya was the aggressor, so the "it was just defence" argument doesn't really hold.

I mean... Just to make sure we're clear on what actually happened in this scene, Joffrey was the aggressor against Mycah (who, let's note, did not provoke Joffrey in the slightest) - Joffrey tried to make Mycah fight him, Joffrey had a real sword and Mycah just had a stick, and then Joffrey cut Mycah's face with his sword. It wasn't until Joffrey cut Mycah that Arya got involved and hit Joffrey with her stick - to protect/defend Mycah. Joffrey then broke Arya's stick and backed Arya up against a tree with his sword. It's possible that if Nymeria hadn't gotten involved that Joffrey would have severely injured Arya because he is the worst. I think the text points pretty clearly to Joffrey being the one who escalated the entire situation, and at least initially he was completely unprovoked. With both Mycah and Arya, Joffrey was better armed and better trained, and with Arya he had the additional fortune of being much bigger. Arya jumped in to defend Mycah and Nymeria jumped in to defend Arya. To me, the whole situation is pretty clearly Joffrey's fault.

[Errant Bard]

[...]To me, the whole situation is pretty clearly Joffrey's fault.

It only works if you think it is legitimate to attack the crown prince for hurting a peasant, and if you consider violence legitimate as the first reaction to that.

But then, you'd have to remember that even Ned cares less about that kid than about a wolf.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Uh, no, the question is entirely rhetorical,she offers gold for Nymeria, and says she will have a pelt, and when Robert makes fun of her, she says there is a wolf right here. She calls the shots. What Robert does is only not going against her.

There is no evidence in the text that Robert and Cersei had previously agreed that the wolf should die. You're speculating on that. And it is not a rhetorical question when asked of the King. When Ned specifically objects to killing Cersei's suggestion to kill Lady, it is Robert, not Cersei, who made it an order.

Preposterous, Arya told her her story, so they all know what happened,

Well, you should be proud that you've convinced me that further discussion with you is futile. You've misrepresented who gave the actual order, and now you've completely ignored the fact that Joffrey had given his side of the story in opposition to Arya's.

Did she lie now? As it happens, we have at least one example from her PoV where special memories don't match reality. And then under stress, between a rock and hard place, some people have been known to have a blank.

This is ridiculous -- comparing Sandor not kissing her to her not remembering anything about that fight. It's not honest debate.

ETA: Note that I am not arguing that lying is not a bad thing to do, or that not backing Arya was good, I am just saying that Sansa's input would not have meant anything in the face of the feudal social norms and traditions ruling this encounter between Ned and Cersei.

No, you're just arguing that she didn't lie, which is disingenuous as hell, and by extension, arguing that it wasn't wrong of her not to back Arya, because, as you claim, she had a temporary brain fart. And I'll take the fact that the author including Sansa as lying in that scene as having significance as to the result, over your claim it wouldn't have mattered.

[Mladen]

No, you're just arguing that she didn't lie, which is disingenuous as hell, and by extension, arguing that it wasn't wrong of her not to back Arya, because, as you claim, she had a temporary brain fart. And I'll take the fact that the author including Sansa as lying in that scene as having significance as to the result, over your claim it wouldn't have mattered.

OK, but here is essential to say what Sansa lied about. She lied that she didn't remember, not bout actual events. She said nothing, therefore she didn't lie to corroborate anyone's version. And, by the way, entire situation was out of her hands. She was in tough situation, and Cersei used the idiocy of brutes like Robert and Ned to get what she wanted. Sansa in no way contributed to Lady's death for Lady was never on trial here, and more than that, Sansa telling the truth wouldn't change two facts:

1. Arya struck first

2. Nymeria bit Joffrey

I just don't understand how people expect these two simple facts to be denied by Sansa telling the truth. And when we speak about author, nowhere in the books is in any way hinted that Sansa had anything with Lady's death...

[juanml82]

OK, but here is essential to say what Sansa lied about. She lied that she didn't remember, not bout actual events. She said nothing, therefore she didn't lie to corroborate anyone's version. And, by the way, entire situation was out of her hands. She was in tough situation, and Cersei used the idiocy of brutes like Robert and Ned to get what she wanted. Sansa in no way contributed to Lady's death for Lady was never on trial here, and more than that, Sansa telling the truth wouldn't change two facts:

1. Arya struck first

2. Nymeria bit Joffrey

I just don't understand how people expect these two simple facts to be denied by Sansa telling the truth. And when we speak about author, nowhere in the books is in any way hinted that Sansa had anything with Lady's death...

Isn't there an SSM around hinting otherwise?