MadMikes Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 This has really very little to go on, other than the beliefs of Marwyn, but I like the idea that the Maesters have somehow managed to suppress much of the magical potency in the world. Marwyn says "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords? The world the citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can." He seems to believe that the Maesters have been systematically eliminating traces of magic through the ages, perhaps with some magic of their own or perhaps simply by erasing knowledge of it. Even the Valyrian steel links seem to suggest some sort of magic suppression. The Maesters are taught that magic no longer works and those who study it are looked down on. They want a world of logic and reason. The Maesters, despite being an order of servers, are very powerful. They are holders of great knowledge, but also keep the secrets of the lords of their keep and advise the most powerful people in Westeros. Magic represents the inconsistent and irrational, thus the maesters would desire to rid the world of it. Perhaps they want it gone for good reasons, perhaps they want power. Not the most well supported argument I know, but I like it. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Storm King Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 It's not a crackpot theory it's a well accepted one. They probably poisoned the dragons as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Why get rid of magic when you could open a magical academy ? Think of the profit opportunities ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMikes Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Why get rid of magic when you could open a magical academy ? Think of the profit opportunities ! But magic is inconsistent. Imagine the power of an Order that was consistently valuable to everyone, and made magic users look like foolish scam artists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katerine459 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 From what I understand, magic coincides with dragons. To the point where its existence kind of depends on dragons. That is, if there are dragons in the world, then there is magic in the world. If there are not dragons in the world, then there is not magic in the world. So it would be a fairly "simple" thing to destroy all magic in the world; just kill all of the dragons. After Dany's dragons were born, suddenly magical things that never worked before started working. Lighting the obsidian candle, Thoros's fire being able to resurrect people, etc. And even the Others' return coincided roughly (if you look at the history of the world, where a few years is just a blink of an eye) with Dany's birth. (And like The Storm King said, this isn't a crackpot theory. It's a theory that's put forth in the books, and makes perfect sense. Even Maester Luwin went out of his way to discount any magical explanation for the mystical things that Bran and Rickon were experiencing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 It's not a crackpot theory it's a well accepted one. They probably poisoned the dragons as well Yes. It's pretty much spelled out more than once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not a kneeler Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I think it is a common belief that the magic comes and goes with the presence of dragons, but this may be a misconception. Perhaps the dragons come back because magic has for some reason come back. Magic and dragons are concurrent rather than respondent. The maesters, despite their contempt for magic, still own the glass candles. I think they may hate magic because they do not understand it and how to control it, and they do fear it for that reason, but ultimately they are only men and narrow-minded ones at that. When magic rears its strange head the maesters only hope to rid the world of it. They truly have no control over it and will be unable to stiffle it. Edited for typos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daphnaerys Seaworth Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Your theory is not at all crackpot.It's been around for a while.We only get to know the maesters by AFFC and I 'd really love to see and learn more about them via Sam in Oldtown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 From what I understand, magic coincides with dragons. To the point where its existence kind of depends on dragons. That is, if there are dragons in the world, then there is magic in the world. If there are not dragons in the world, then there is not magic in the world. So it would be a fairly "simple" thing to destroy all magic in the world; just kill all of the dragons. After Dany's dragons were born, suddenly magical things that never worked before started working. Lighting the obsidian candle, Thoros's fire being able to resurrect people, etc. And even the Others' return coincided roughly (if you look at the history of the world, where a few years is just a blink of an eye) with Dany's birth. (And like The Storm King said, this isn't a crackpot theory. It's a theory that's put forth in the books, and makes perfect sense. Even Maester Luwin went out of his way to discount any magical explanation for the mystical things that Bran and Rickon were experiencing). I like to think that magic has always existed and the hatching of the dragons simply enhanced it. To the OP: I think that the Citadel definately has their own agenda and likely played a part in the events at Summerhall as well as possibly having something to to with the construction of the dragonpit as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartan64Destiny Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Upon joining AFOIAF, I was waiting for somebody to bring this up regarding The Maesters and their underlying power over the counsel of their prospective noble houses they serve. After reading SoS and FfC I had questions regarding those candles and that special book which contained dragon knowledge. I started to ask myself, were they responsible for the disappearance of all the magic in The Realm and including the rest of the land and after consulting with my buddies, YES, they were directly responsible for the disappearance of all the magic and dragons that existed somehow. Its going to be interesting to see where Samuel Tarley's path may lead to as a player in GoT.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 I think not magic but unnatural magic is bound to dragons.For example Old Gods and warging or Greendreams were still happening while there were no dragons.Old Gods use nature magic actually they are the nature itself.The gifts presented by Old Gods are related directly to nature unlike other magic that has been growing since the dragons born.Do you think it is a coincidence that dragons appear and Others strike at the same time.They are both not a part of nature.Others and Dragons both of them are destructive creatures.Like Dany says Dragons plant no trees.I think Maesters knew about this situation and they eliminated the threat permanently or so they believed.But this Maester Marwyn character seems like a bad guy the company he keeps is really creepy(MMD, Qyburn warlocks etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMikes Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 Your theory is not at all crackpot.It's been around for a while. We only get to know the maesters by AFFC and I 'd really love to see and learn more about them via Sam in Oldtown. This is what I was thinking. I'm hoping that Sam will study for a Valyrian steel link (almost inevitable giving what he faces beyond the wall), and when he comes to take his vows and stand vigil in the vault, he will succeed at lighting the glass candle. That way, we will learn more about magic, via the Maesters, but also will have a POV magic user if Sam is successful. From what I understand, magic coincides with dragons. To the point where its existence kind of depends on dragons. That is, if there are dragons in the world, then there is magic in the world. If there are not dragons in the world, then there is not magic in the world. So it would be a fairly "simple" thing to destroy all magic in the world; just kill all of the dragons. After Dany's dragons were born, suddenly magical things that never worked before started working. Lighting the obsidian candle, Thoros's fire being able to resurrect people, etc. And even the Others' return coincided roughly (if you look at the history of the world, where a few years is just a blink of an eye) with Dany's birth. (And like The Storm King said, this isn't a crackpot theory. It's a theory that's put forth in the books, and makes perfect sense. Even Maester Luwin went out of his way to discount any magical explanation for the mystical things that Bran and Rickon were experiencing). I think Dragons are just one of the signs that magic is returning, they don't represent magic in themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Dragons are unnatural, alien. Just like the Others. Both of these destructive forces are in opposition to Natural Magic. To the Old Gods. Most likely the Hammer of the Waters overturned the natural balance to such an extent that it allowed the first of these forces - Fire - into the world about 12,000 years ago. Over the following millenia Dragons overran the world, and threatened to destroy the natural balance completely. The only way to stop them, was for the Children to bring an opposing force - Ice - into the world. Thus arrived the Others and the Long Night which wiped out all the Dragons, except those hidden in the volcanoes of Valyria. However, the Long Night also wiped out almost all other life before the Children were somehow able to drive it back. But this effort came at a huge cost to the Children. It drained them of much of their former power. They could not completely eradicate the force of Ice, just like the force of Fire could not completely be eradicated either. Hence we face the situation today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMikes Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 Dragons are unnatural, alien. Just like the Others. Both of these destructive forces are in opposition to Natural Magic. To the Old Gods. Most likely the Hammer of the Waters overturned the natural balance to such an extent that it allowed the first of these forces - Fire - into the world about 12,000 years ago. Over the following millenia Dragons overran the world, and threatened to destroy the natural balance completely. The only way to stop them, was for the Children to bring an opposing force - Ice - into the world. Thus arrived the Others and the Long Night which wiped out all the Dragons, except those hidden in the volcanoes of Valyria. However, the Long Night also wiped out almost all other life before the Children were somehow able to drive it back. But this effort came at a huge cost to the Children. It drained them of much of their former power. They could not completely eradicate the force of Ice, just like the force of Fire could not completely be eradicated either. Hence we face the situation today. Surely there would be something in the history of humans about an invasion of Dragons. The only knowledge of dragons we've had is the ones found by the Freehold in the Fourteen Flames. Records of the Others are pretty vague, but surely there would be some mention of Dragons before Valyria if they had been seen before then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegloriousedd Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Dragons are unnatural, alien. Just like the Others. Both of these destructive forces are in opposition to Natural Magic. To the Old Gods. Most likely the Hammer of the Waters overturned the natural balance to such an extent that it allowed the first of these forces - Fire - into the world about 12,000 years ago. Over the following millenia Dragons overran the world, and threatened to destroy the natural balance completely. The only way to stop them, was for the Children to bring an opposing force - Ice - into the world. Thus arrived the Others and the Long Night which wiped out all the Dragons, except those hidden in the volcanoes of Valyria. However, the Long Night also wiped out almost all other life before the Children were somehow able to drive it back. But this effort came at a huge cost to the Children. It drained them of much of their former power. They could not completely eradicate the force of Ice, just like the force of Fire could not completely be eradicated either. Hence we face the situation today.Okay, I won't pretend to be the most knowledgeable person about ASoIaF but I'm pretty sure you pulled that theory out of your ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon of the Dead Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 I'll be a little disapointed if the maesters killed the dragons using fairly common methods, like building the Dragonpit knowing it will weaken the dragons and stop their growth. BTW, did anyone else notice that almost every single maester has done something against Mel/Stannis/The Targs somehow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 I think the role the maesters played in the death of the dragons was fairly small. Maybe they were responsible for stunting the growth of the last couple, but The Dance seems to have done most of the damage. It is possible the maesters somehow prevented any more eggs from hatching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegloriousedd Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 I think the role the maesters played in the death of the dragons was fairly small. Maybe they were responsible for stunting the growth of the last couple, but The Dance seems to have done most of the damage. It is possible the maesters somehow prevented any more eggs from hatching.Like giving the targs bad advice on how to do it? Like lighting themselves on fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Like giving the targs bad advice on how to do it? Like lighting themselves on fire? Haha. "Yeah, drink the wildfyre. truuust me it'll be awesome." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegloriousedd Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Lol I think your onto something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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