Dany the Rider

[Parwan]

I maintain that Daenerys Targaryen is magical. Elsewhere, I've detailed some reasons for believing this is innate, not something she needed to study in school, not something to be learned in an apprenticeship. In this thread, I'll concentrate on one matter. Very early on, Dany becomes a rider. We're told she doesn't have much skill in this area. Then she's great. Is there magic in the transition? In my opinion, that's the explanation.

In the very first scene where the young princess appears, Viserys complains that she has the stink of the stables on her. Now, why would that be? She's just been presented with an expensive gown that is meant to impress the khal; the party will begin soon; she's not too good at riding. Why would she smell like she's been around horses? This seems to be foreshadowing.

Then, in her wedding POV, she is presented with the silver-maned filly. It's at this point that the text says she is no better than a mediocre horsewoman and that the Dothraki saddle is unfamiliar to her. She mounts up though, and suddenly she is an equestrian. She is galloping along, jumping a fire, etc. The Dothraki are hooting and dodging out of the way. it's as if she became the khaleesi simply by getting onto a special horse. A special horse and a special relationship. Later, out on the grasslands, Irri is giving the new khaleesi instructions. But Dany sees her silver as the true teacher. There is a sort of bonding here that appears in other fantasy stories. It's the idea that "the animal chooses you." This indicates that you are something special. One could put forth alternate interpretations. Maybe Daenerys just has natural talents as a horsewoman. To me, this is like saying that she is able to mount and ride Drogon because she has a lot of talent with a whip.

It's not just the smell of the stables that is significant. There are numbers dreams, foreshadowing events, premonitions...Dany eats the stallion's heart, she notes the abysmal riding skills of her brother (the so-called king), she dreams of flying over the Dothraki sea, she argues with Qotho and tells him that the dragon can feed on horse and sheep alike. Then in ADwD, Drogon carries her above the grasslands. This beast is famous (or infamous) for devouring sheep. On this occasion he roasts one of the Dothraki steeds; dragon and rider descend and feast on it.

We also have sex. At first, Daenerys is mounted. Later, she is on top. The scene in the fighting pit of Meereen has a similarity to the wedding scene. As with the horse, so it is with the dragon. Daenerys Stormborn simply gets on and rides. And in this case, there can't be any Irri to give her instructions. Furthermore, there is no saddle at all. Daenerys Targaryen accomplishes things that haven't been done in hundreds of years, some things that may never have been done before at all. How are we to deal with all of this? As I said, I don't see a good explanation other than magic.

[Tommen]

I'd say there's definitely magic involved where her relationship with the dragons is concerned. If nothing else, Dany has an affinity with heat and fire which makes her suited to intimacy with her dragons. That may be hereditary to an extent, because we know from D&E that Aegon V also liked to bathe in very hot water, and it's possible that magic is linked to genetics in ASOIAF as is suggested by the restriction of warging abilities to those with First Men heritage, the supposed power of "king's blood", dragon dreams among descendants of House Targaryen and (perhaps) the potency of the black hair gene among the Baratheons. These are all examples of magic being innate rather than learned, which seems plausible given Dany's remarkable ability with the dragons. I'm not so convinced where the horse stuff is concerned, I'd sooner put that down to her personal strength and willpower.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think Valyrian blood is magical like first men blood.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96606-rethinking-magic-in-asoiaf-part-i-dragonbinders-dragonbonding-and-dragonlords-adwd-affc-and-agot-spoilers/

This was a short analysis on how Drogon bonded Dany in AGOT, there is also evidence in later books where he senses her moods and also when she had that Irri moment in the bed he screamed when she climaxed.

[SeanF]

Are you saying that Dany is innately a sorcerer?

I think that the ability to bond with dragons (and to survive the burning pyre) and her prophetic dreams do point to her having sorcerous power. In fact, the ability to hatch dragon eggs by means of human sacrifice suggests an ability to perform black magic of a very high order.

The ability to ride may just be a natural talent, though.

[Ygrain]

I'd say there's definitely magic involved where her relationship with the dragons is concerned. If nothing else, Dany has an affinity with heat and fire which makes her suited to intimacy with her dragons. That may be hereditary to an extent, because we know from D&E that Aegon V also liked to bathe in very hot water, and it's possible that magic is linked to genetics in ASOIAF as is suggested by the restriction of warging abilities to those with First Men heritage, the supposed power of "king's blood", dragon dreams among descendants of House Targaryen and (perhaps) the potency of the black hair gene among the Baratheons. These are all examples of magic being innate rather than learned, which seems plausible given Dany's remarkable ability with the dragons. I'm not so convinced where the horse stuff is concerned, I'd sooner put that down to her personal strength and willpower.

The list of people liking hot baths is actually way more extensive, and for some reason, not all the folks on the list are Targaryen. Must be some other magic.

[Pod The Impaler]

Are you saying that Dany is innately a sorcerer?

I think that the ability to bond with dragons (and to survive the burning pyre) and her prophetic dreams do point to her having sorcerous power. In fact, the ability to hatch dragon eggs by means of human sacrifice suggests an ability to perform black magic of a very high order.

The ability to ride may just be a natural talent, though.

I think she is innately magical.

The hatching of the petrified dragon eggs, when you look at it, was an act of madness - but also she sensed by instinct that it would work. By all rights she should be dead, but she put together the blood magic / death-paying-for-life thing in her head without even fully realizing it. She created a ritual of fire and blood, knowing basically nothing about the sorcery once practiced by those of Valyrian blood. (And I'm convinced it was the magic of the ritual that protected her from burning; I do not believe she's literally fireproof.)

She's also not the first of her bloodline to have prophetic dreams, nor attempt the hatching / rebirthing of dragons. Of course, her predecessors failed - some spectactularly - but this is perhaps because they could only conceptualize the magic, but were not meant to be the one who actually invoked it. It had to be her - and magic at work not something mundane.

[Little Balerion]

I believe Dany is a Goddess.

She is the 'bride of fire' - she is R'hllor personified. She is the mother of dragons, and mother of slaves.

She is Azor Ahai, she is the Princess that was Promised.

She is the younger Queen who will take everything from Cersei.

She is the Queen of the Andals, Rhoynar and soon the Queen of Westeros.

[SeanF]

She's also not the first of her bloodline to have prophetic dreams, nor attempt the hatching / rebirthing of dragons. Of course, her predecessors failed - some spectactularly - but this is perhaps because they could only conceptualize the magic, but were not meant to be the one who actually invoked it. It had to be her - and magic at work not something mundane.

And perhaps some of them couldn't bring themselves to do (after converting to the Faith) what was needed to hatch dragon eggs - deliberately burn an unwilling victim alive.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I believe Dany is a Goddess.

:lmao: I'm sorry but honestly. It's bad enough that the Targs had a god complex about themselves without people actually believing it.

As for Dany having some innate ability with sorcery, here's a very simple litmus test. Could she replicate the funeral pyre and get the same results? If someone gave her another dragon egg, is it guaranteed that she would be able to hatch it? If her power is innate, then she should be able to do this. For what it's worth, the author doesn't seem to think this is the case when he shot down the idea of her being fireproof by calling the pyre event a "miracle," i.e. something outside of a person's control that can't be duplicated.

I don't see any evidence that Dany has the same type of bond with her dragons that the Starks have with their wolves. She is not a skinchanger. Her riding Drogon has less to do with magic and more to do with holding on for dear life. I see her coming into contact with a lot of other people's magic -- MMD, Quaithe, the warlocks -- but I don't see anything to indicate she has any of her own, other than perhaps some prophetic ability that may or may not be linked to Valyrians and that she has yet to channel into any sort of proactive decision-making (i.e. she hasn't had a dream where she saw something, interpreted it and then behaved accordingly).

I won't even touch the hot baths/fire immunity nonsense; too much time has been wasted on it already.

[Little Balerion]

:lmao: I'm sorry but honestly. It's bad enough that the Targs had a god complex about themselves without people actually believing it.

I'm obviously joking.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

There is evidence that a dragonrider's bond is indeed magical, but it is definetly not skinchanging.

GRRM recently had a reading at Bubicon, which I found very interesting as it gave us some highlights on the early Targaryens like Aenys I and Maegor I.
What I found interesting was that apparently Aenys I was a dragonlord/dragonrider, and he had a dragon known as Quicksilver. What I found more interesting was that Aenys the first was born as a rather sickly child maybe like Sweetrobin?
And when he finally bonded his dragon he became stronger.
This shows that there is something magical between a rider and his dragon, and that something passes between them since Aenys I had this magical occurrence.


Apparently the same thing happened to Dany in AGOT, I did not realize this until I saw the bubicon reading.

"At first it had not come easy. The khalasar had broken camp the morning after her wedding, moving east toward Vaes Dothrak, and by the third day Dany thought she was going to die. Saddle sores opened on her bottom, hideous and bloody. Her thighs were chafed raw, her hands blistered from the reins, the muscles of her legs and back so wracked with pain that she could scarcely sit. By the time dusk fell, her handmaids would need to help her down from her mount.


Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep. Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

This part of AGOT was very emotional as a reader to see Dany go through so much to the extent that she was sick and was about to commit suicide, she was in an extremely traumatic state and yet the night she was about to commit suicide look what happened.


"Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce."

And then the following morning....


"And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. It was as if the gods had heard her and taken pity. Even her handmaids noticed the change. “Khaleesi,” Jhiqui said, “what is wrong? Are you sick?” “I was,” she answered, standing over the dragon’s eggs that Illyrio had given her when she wed. She touched one, the largest of the three, running her hand lightly over the shell. Black-and-scarlet, she thought, like the dragon in my dream. The stone felt strangely warm beneath her fingers … or was she still dreaming? She pulled her hand back nervously. From that hour onward, each day was easier than the one before it. Her legs grew stronger; her blisters burst and her hands grew callused; her soft thighs toughened, supple as leather."

This is similar to what happened to Aenys I, he was a sickly boy and when he bonded Quicksilver he became stronger, just like Dany she was extremely in bad shape and on the verge of commiting suicide and when she bonded Drogon she became stronger and fiercer and wasnt weak anyomore, so Dany and Drogon's bond is not a maternal bond it is a bond of a rider and dragon.

Its interesting GRRM uses the word sing for Bran when his direwolf heals him just like Dany.

“He needs to hear them sing,” Robb said. Somewhere out in Winterfell, a second wolf began to howl in chorus with the first. Then a third, closer. “Shaggydog and Grey Wind,” Robb said as their voices rose and fell together. “You can tell them apart if you listen close.”

Perhaps this is the song of ice and fire?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm obviously joking.

And the fact that I thought you weren't just shows how crazy some of the earnest Dany theories really are.

[RoamingRonin]

She's Targaryen, of the blood of old Vayria. I thought it was given she has magic in her blood. Her hatching her dragons eggs and emerging from the funeral pyre should be enough to support this.

[Howling Mad]

There is evidence that a dragonrider's bond is indeed magical, but it is definetly not skinchanging.

GRRM recently had a reading at Bubicon, which I found very interesting as it gave us some highlights on the early Targaryens like Aenys I and Maegor I.

What I found interesting was that apparently Aenys I was a dragonlord/dragonrider, and he had a dragon known as Quicksilver. What I found more interesting was that Aenys the first was born as a rather sickly child maybe like Sweetrobin?

And when he finally bonded his dragon he became stronger.

This shows that there is something magical between a rider and his dragon, and that something passes between them since Aenys I had this magical occurrence.

Apparently the same thing happened to Dany in AGOT, I did not realize this until I saw the bubicon reading.

"At first it had not come easy. The khalasar had broken camp the morning after her wedding, moving east toward Vaes Dothrak, and by the third day Dany thought she was going to die. Saddle sores opened on her bottom, hideous and bloody. Her thighs were chafed raw, her hands blistered from the reins, the muscles of her legs and back so wracked with pain that she could scarcely sit. By the time dusk fell, her handmaids would need to help her down from her mount.

Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep. Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

This part of AGOT was very emotional as a reader to see Dany go through so much to the extent that she was sick and was about to commit suicide, she was in an extremely traumatic state and yet the night she was about to commit suicide look what happened.

"Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce."

And then the following morning....

"And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. It was as if the gods had heard her and taken pity. Even her handmaids noticed the change. “Khaleesi,” Jhiqui said, “what is wrong? Are you sick?” “I was,” she answered, standing over the dragon’s eggs that Illyrio had given her when she wed. She touched one, the largest of the three, running her hand lightly over the shell. Black-and-scarlet, she thought, like the dragon in my dream. The stone felt strangely warm beneath her fingers … or was she still dreaming? She pulled her hand back nervously. From that hour onward, each day was easier than the one before it. Her legs grew stronger; her blisters burst and her hands grew callused; her soft thighs toughened, supple as leather."

This is similar to what happened to Aenys I, he was a sickly boy and when he bonded Quicksilver he became stronger, just like Dany she was extremely in bad shape and on the verge of commiting suicide and when she bonded Drogon she became stronger and fiercer and wasnt weak anyomore, so Dany and Drogon's bond is not a maternal bond it is a bond of a rider and dragon.

Its interesting GRRM uses the word sing for Bran when his direwolf heals him just like Dany.

“He needs to hear them sing,” Robb said. Somewhere out in Winterfell, a second wolf began to howl in chorus with the first. Then a third, closer. “Shaggydog and Grey Wind,” Robb said as their voices rose and fell together. “You can tell them apart if you listen close.”

Perhaps this is the song of ice and fire?

Interesting observation, I guess we'll find out in the next book whether Dany has truly bonded with her balck dragon.

[tze]

[snip]

Throughout ASOIAF, the more time Dany spends on horseback, the better a rider she becomes. This is not magic, this is logic. And even Dany herself attributes her initial ease with the silver horse to the particular quality of the horse itself. The point is that she has a good horse (possibly for the first time in a long time), not that she suddenly becomes a magically gifted rider upon mounting a well-bred horse. Dany considers the horse her teacher because she is literally spending her entire day on that horse---again, this is not "fantasy bonding', it's exactly what you'd expect from anyone who was spending hours upon hours mounted on the same horse.

And the only "skill" she's shown vis a vis Drogon is the ability to climb on his back and hang on. Climbing onto an animal's back does not require magical skill, just like holding on to that animal does not require magical skill.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

She's Targaryen, of the blood of old Vayria. I thought it was given she has magic in her blood. Her hatching her dragons eggs and emerging from the funeral pyre should be enough to support this.

Then why did all of the other Targaryens fail to hatch dragons when they tried? Pretty sure they'd have the same blood she does and in fact, in the earlier generations, be "more" Valyrian, genetics-wise.

Again, the author's use of the word "miracle" to describe the event makes it seem much more like a freak of nature or something out of the realm of human control. I highly doubt he'd use that word if he really intended Dany to be inherently magical. In fact, he gives that description when shooting down the idea that Targs have a specific magical property, the fire immunity.

[RoamingRonin]

Then why did all of the other Targaryens fail to hatch dragons when they tried? Pretty sure they'd have the same blood she does and in fact, in the earlier generations, be "more" Valyrian, genetics-wise.

Again, the author's use of the word "miracle" to describe the event makes it seem much more like a freak of nature or something out of the realm of human control. I highly doubt he'd use that word if he really intended Dany to be inherently magical. In fact, he gives that description when shooting down the idea that Targs have a specific magical property, the fire immunity.

I don't know why they failed, I just know Dany succeeded. Perhaps you need only compare previous attempts to hatch dragon's eggs to Dany's successful attempt.

What do you suggest happened that night? Do you think the eggs would have hatched without her intervention?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't know why they failed, I just know Dany succeeded. Perhaps you need only compare previous attempts to hatch dragon's eggs to Dany's successful attempt.

What do you suggest happened that night? Do you think the eggs would have hatched without her intervention?

I think there was a magical person involved, it just wasn't Dany. If the trump card really was just the Targaryen blood, then the Targs would have succeeded earlier in hatching the eggs.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I don't know why they failed, I just know Dany succeeded. Perhaps you need only compare previous attempts to hatch dragon's eggs to Dany's successful attempt.

What do you suggest happened that night? Do you think the eggs would have hatched without her intervention?

I don't think humans can hatch dragons, Dany's event I believe wasn't specific to a Targaryen it was specific to her probably to fulfill a prophecy and she did.

This was the prophecy probably what the earlier targs were trying to do but failed.

And it can't be repeated again if it was a prophecy.

[Ygrain]

I don't know why they failed, I just know Dany succeeded. Perhaps you need only compare previous attempts to hatch dragon's eggs to Dany's successful attempt.

What do you suggest happened that night? Do you think the eggs would have hatched without her intervention?

Fire and blood. Both were there, hence the dragons hatched.