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Who is the rightful king, should Cersei be judged guilty?


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#1 Weiss_yeah

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:10 PM

Hello all.

 

I have been looking at many topics, but this is my first, I may have troubles going exactly where I want to go in my argumentation. Well, let's go into this:

 

In the upcoming sixth book of ASOIAF, we will read about Cersei's trial, which she has chosen to be a trial by battle, and where her innocence (lol), will be defended by the great unknown knight called Robert Strong. I am of the ones who really think this UnGregor is just a great scam by Qyburn and that it will prove completely useless. Anyhow, in my opinion, Cersei will lose: her trial, her head.

 

But let's just recap the charges brought forth by the High Septon:

-High treason (kind of general)

-Regicide (Robert Baratheon)

-Deicide (Previous High Septon)

-Incest

 

That got me thinking...

 

Should she lose, Tommen and Myrcella will be seen as full Lannister incestuous spawn, and their claim over the Iron Throne will be widely considered as invalid. And in this case, what will happen exactly?

 

First of all, will Kevan, Mace and all the Tyrell bannermen on the small council suddenly decide that the Faith has suddenly no legitimacy to juge this trial, since it will mean that Margeary is no longer Queen?

If not, considering that the throne belong to the new Baratheon dynasty, I believe they will search for uncles. But, Renly is dead and Stannis is a worshiper of red demon according to the High Septon himself.

 

What's supposed to happen then, in the wait for Aegon to march on KL?

 

(Sorry if it's unclear, badly formulated, full of poor English or whatever)



#2 bpsae325

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:16 PM

Have you read ADWD all the way through? Not trying to be a dick, honest question. I don't know how to do the spoiler and I don't want to spoil something for you.

 



#3 Thormund Stark

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:18 PM

Is Cersei being tried for Incest I can't remember. But if she is and is found guilty she'll be executed, Tommen will be killed, and as for the king who knows maybe the faith will takeover... But sadly she probably won't be found guilty and will be left to screw up the 7K even more until Jaime kills her(hopefully).

#4 Weiss_yeah

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:18 PM

Yeah, I'm on a re-read, close to the end, go on.

 

Edit: Kevan to Cersei: "His High Holiness is resolved that you be tried for regicide, deicide, incest and high treason".


Edited by Weiss_yeah, 25 October 2013 - 01:22 PM.


#5 bpsae325

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:25 PM

Ok, Kevan is dead, so what I believe will happen is Cersei will have Tommen declare her innocent, as Mace Tyrell suggested he do for Margaery, and that will create a rift between the faith and her/Tommen. Cersei will install herself as regent again which will cause more friction with Highgarden. especially if she doesn't have Tommen declare Margaery innocent as well, which she may or may not. That will lead mace and his bannerman to abandon her and join up with Aegon. Again, just my opinion but I think Kevan dying changes everything in regards to what will happen with the trials.



#6 Bael's Bastard

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:25 PM

If their desire is an heir to Robert, I suppose it might be Stannis.  Perhaps the Faith will take over for a time?



#7 Darth Visenya

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:27 PM

The Rightful King?, Aerys Targaryen but he's a bit indisposed with being dead.



#8 Consigliere

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:27 PM

I don't think that Cersei will lose her trial. Her suffering is not done yet.

 

 

If she does lose and is executed and Tommen and Myrcella are either exiled or executed then I think that a Great Council will be formed to decide the succession.



#9 Buried Treasure

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:29 PM

The charges against her relate only to the affairs she has had after Robert died, It included Lancel's confession of slipping Robert the strongwine help him die and sleeping with her, but I think Lancel only slept with her after that time. She is not being accused of the incest with Jaime. All the people in Kings Landing who want her to lose the trial and be removed from the game currently derive their own authority from King Tommen and are not invested in him being proved illegitimate. That especially applies to the Tyrells as if Tommen is not a king then they are not married to the royal family. 



#10 Weiss_yeah

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:29 PM

Oh yeah right, totally forgot about Kevan's death! Thanks for the reminder!

 

Anyhow, in regards to the rift between Faith and Throne, I believe the armed branch of the Faith will last a really short span of time (like Renly's kingship)

 

Edit

 

I don't think that Cersei will lose her trial. Her suffering is not done yet.

 

 

If she does lose and is executed and Tommen and Myrcella are either exiled or executed then I think that a Great Council will be formed to decide the succession.

 

 

Oh what a great idea, I'd really like to see one, like the one that brought Aegon V!

 

 

The charges against her relate only to the affairs she has had after Robert died, It included Lancel's confession of slipping Robert the strongwine help him die and sleeping with her, but I think Lancel only slept with her after that time. She is not being accused of the incest with Jaime. All the people in Kings Landing who want her to lose the trial and be removed from the game currently derive their own authority from King Tommen and are not invested in him being proved illegitimate. That especially applies to the Tyrells as if Tommen is not a king then they are not married to the royal family. 

 

I really don't think that sleeping with cousins is considered like incest in Westeros. There are many weddings between cousins, if you want and give me enough time I could dig for some exemples. Plus, during the discussion between Cersei and the High Septon where she confesses, he talks about her children being born of incest.

 

Edit2

 

The Rightful King?, Aerys Targaryen but he's a bit indisposed with being dead.

 

 

I'm more on the side of whatever descendance (bastards?) Aegon II had.


Edited by Weiss_yeah, 25 October 2013 - 01:38 PM.


#11 Buried Treasure

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:41 PM

Everybody knows about the Jaime incest, but I do believe it is not being included in the charges against her. The High Septon has actual confessions to the affairs with Lancel and Kettleblack, but not for the affair with Jaime. He may be not bringing those charges because he lacks evidence, or because he cares enough about political consequences to realise that the Lannisters and Tyrells would work together to prevent the trial if it would result in dethroning Tommen.



#12 kiasyd

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:45 PM

Well, I think one of the recurring themes of ASOIAF, is that "rightful king" is a very, very, very loose and subjective concept.



#13 The Doctor's Consort

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:50 PM

His Royal Majesty Stannis Baratheon the First of His Name King of the Andals and the Rhoynar Protector of the Realm is the rightful King.

 

And Cersei is guilty on all counts.


Edited by Jon's Queen Consort, 25 October 2013 - 01:50 PM.


#14 Blutraven

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:53 PM

Tommen will still keep the throne if Cersei loses her trial but will just end up as a Tyrell puppet. If the Tyrells have a puppet on the throne they won't support someone not on the throne, especially if he marries Arriane.

 

Stannis is the rightful king, Cersei is guilty but she'll be found innocent. Jaime's going to be the one who kills her.



#15 Bael's Bastard

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:53 PM

I'm more on the side of whatever descendance (bastards?) Aegon II had.

 

I think his only child of note was a daughter that married Aegon III, but I am not sure if he had any children of note (or at all) with her.  And even his children of note (which may have been from his Velaryon wife) didn't really have descendents, except for Daena through her affair with Aegon IV, which produced Daemon Blackfyre.  It is Aegon III's brother Viserys II that all later Targaryens kings are descended from (either through Aegon IV or through his brother Aemon)..



#16 Dornish Whine

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:54 PM

Win or lose, I don't think Cersei is going to lose her head to the Faith Militant.  She still has to pull a 'Mad King' maneuver and set some wildfire alight and the Valonqar prophesy needs to be seen through.  I think her trail could serve as a catalyst for the foreshadowed war between the Faith Militant and the Crown.  It would probably work best if she were to lose, but refuse/escape her punishment and thus spark said war. 

 

ETA - Forgot to address the rightful King question. 

 

Stannis is the rightful King at the moment.  Baratheon rule still stands. 

 

But this is a good question anyways as power lies where men believe it lies.  I think Tommen and Myrcella would lose their claim in the eyes of many (even more so than they have already).  However those currently in power would not want to accept this.  This will be the reason that the Tyrells etc support Cersei's "side" in the war I mention. 

 

Who would the Faith back, becomes the tricky question.  They will not back Stannis because he burnt the Seven and 'follows' the Lord of Light now.  I think the Faith will probably side with Aegon for the time being.  He is the only contender aside from Stannis to have showed up and he travels with a Septa (apparently).  I believe it is safe to assume he follows the Seven as well. 

 

It will be fun when the Sparrows open the gates to allow the Dragon to return.  It will be even more fun when Dany makes it back to Westeros and finds Aegon Blackfyre sitting on her precious throne.  Everywhere the dragons danced the people died. 


Edited by Dornish Whine, 25 October 2013 - 02:07 PM.


#17 Weiss_yeah

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 02:05 PM

Everybody knows about the Jaime incest, but I do believe it is not being included in the charges against her. The High Septon has actual confessions to the affairs with Lancel and Kettleblack, but not for the affair with Jaime. He may be not bringing those charges because he lacks evidence, or because he cares enough about political consequences to realise that the Lannisters and Tyrells would work together to prevent the trial if it would result in dethroning Tommen.

 

I quite agree with you but what bothers me is Kevan saying that HS is determined to have Cersei judged by all said charges. Being a pretty blunt guy I don't see him making any kind of concessions, even if it meant open war with the throne. How convenient to have his own little army inside the walls of KL.

 

Wow, lot of Stannis fans! But the HS ruling the trial, and assuming he has the power to bring down the Usurper bis Tommen First of his name and all his supporters, there's no way in seven hells he will call on Stannis to sit his ass on the IT.



#18 bpsae325

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 02:08 PM

Stanfans are everywhere, tread carefully lol!



#19 Petyr Patter

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 02:11 PM

Cersei is definitely on trial for incest, which will then call into question the true parentage of Tommen and Myrcella.  I suppose it is possible for Cersei to be declared guilty of incest (and treason) and have her children still be claimed as true sons of Robert, since there are no DNA tests. 

 

Regardless, the law is quite clear if Tommen and Myrcella are out of the line of sucession, then Stannis is Robert's rightful and legal heir.  Except his dalliance with the R'hollor would probably make him unacceptable to the Faith, and his sense of justice would make him unacceptable to the twice treasonous House Tyrell, and his all around iron personality would make him unacceptable to everyone else.

 

There are other options.  I could see the Faith willing to crown Shireen in exchange for Stannis willingly going into exile or taking the Black.  I'm not sure Stannis would buy this and it would leave Shireen as a young girl surrounded by dangerous and greedy people.

 

But what I think will actually happen is Aegon the Maybe will present his claim as the son of Rhaegar and thus the rightful Targaryen heir.  He'll show off his military prowress, good looks, and knowledge of the Faith learned from Septa Lemore, and the Faith will back him. 

 

Alternatively, I'm sure there is some distant cousin to Robert Baratheon that could be dug up to claim the throne.  Or, Edric Storm could be legitimized.



#20 Victor227

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 02:14 PM

While I don't think it's possible that the Faith will take the Incest charge to the trial by combat (as it ruins them politically if it's proven true), they would have no choice but to consider Stannis as Robert's lawful heir.

 

However of course, it's entirely possible that given the lack of a reigning monarch in King's Landing, the Faith would declare Stannis unfit as well, as he's proven a mortal enemy to all goodness and morality in his burning of the Seven at Dragonstone and Storm's End. And then, in steps Aegon, right on Varys' schedule.